What happened to White cultural identity?

gopher · February 9, 2002, 15:32

I ask because I had a lengthly conversation about this a little bit ago. As a half hispanic, half white person, I find myself really identifying as a Hispanic, even though my skin is white and I was raised without much Hispanic influences. Now, I wonder why that is. I have noticed that other cultures/races are very culturally identified. Take African Americans, for example. There is an identity of "us", of heroes to the culture, the MLK's, the Malcom X's, the Fredrick Douglases. A lot of other cultures have that as well. Hispanics have their La Raza, the Cesar Chavezes, the Salvador Allendes. There is an identity for those cultures, one that white/europeans lack. What I find is that white culture likes to organize in deeper roots, not cultural but in economic, political, and religious identity more than the other cultures out there.
Any thoughts?

Paul Hanson · February 9, 2002, 15:43

I should imagine that various white supremacy groups (KKK, etc.) have made it tricky to be proud of being white without being labelled as racist.

chequita guevara · February 9, 2002, 15:56

We whites have America as our cultural identity. We are the real Americans, not hyphenated Americans. We have our heroes, our history, our culture, but instead of binding it up in a small group, we attatch it to our nation (or our region, if we're Southerners).

Furthermore, you only notice the culture in proximaty to other cultures. Since we do our best to ignore other cultures, it's hard to notice what about us makes us different from them (except that they're dirty, smelly, and need our help all the time). However, when confronted by foreign cultures in their own land, we suddenly realize what is American about us, what makes us different.

It's hard to do that in the United States, since Canada and the US have very similar cultures. There is probably no comparablly sized area on Earth with such a dearth of cultures.

Also remember that many whites do not consider Black and Hispanic cultures/histories/etc. to be legitimate culutres in this country. The very fact that there were "multiculturalism wars" demonstrates this. Why should whites have been so resistent to the notion that there are other histories involved in America . . . unless it was confronting, challenging already held ntions about who were were as a people.

Lars-E · February 9, 2002, 16:15

I read or heard somewhere that white Americans today are insecure.

Shi Huangdi · February 9, 2002, 16:17

"We whites have America as our cultural identity."

The are plenty of minorities who have descendats who loved this country so much they fought and died for it. I really don't think there is too much of a cultural diffrence between Americans, although ethnic groups do carry pieces of culture from their descendants-- but basically we are pretty much the same.

Chowlett · February 9, 2002, 16:26

Quote:

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
We whites have America as our cultural identity.

Not all of us do.

My cultural identity is Britain, and for some weird reason Scotland in particular. Weird, because it's not my ancestral home.

chequita guevara · February 9, 2002, 17:08

He was speaking in regards to America, but the same idea could be transported across the Atlantic. You're not white, you're British or French or German. Especially true in those countries, because you nationality is defined around historical lineage. An African or Black Carribean living in Britain can never really claim to be English or Scottish or even British. Her ancestry is from someplace else.

In America, since we are all from someplace else (with the oft ignored excetion of the Indians) so nationality isn't the same. Still, historically, only whites were considered to be Americans. Our history is still largely only concerned with white chievements. Black history is relegated to two parts of American history, the argument over slavery and the Civil Rights movement. Hispanics don't have a history in the US. Asians manage slightly better than that, with building the railroad and being sent to concetration camps in WWII. Indians only exist as someone to be fought or victimized by the US. In each case, whatever any of these groups did outside of their interaction with whites is ignored. More susinctly, the only relavence anyone from these groups has historically is in their interaction with whites. None of these groups exists in isolation from whites or has any history of importance that does not involve us.

Hence the need for Black history, and Hispanic history, and Asian-American history, and Indian studies, etc. That was just a starting point. The real task is to integrate them into the story of America, and abolish the need for seperate studies.

Goingonit · February 9, 2002, 17:08

White identity is to some extent the default. However, the reason it is not as strong is that a major purpose of identifying with a group is to make you feel special. However, if you are identifying with the majority, you are saying "I'm special, just like everybody else"; it doesn't work as much. People cling to their differences.

Kyle · February 9, 2002, 17:47

Quote:

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
In America, since we are all from someplace else (with the oft ignored excetion of the Indians)

Well, they too came from 'someplace else.' Really, the only difference between us and the "native" americans is that they've been here a really, really long time.

Quote:

The real task is to integrate them into the story of America, and abolish the need for seperate studies.

Indeed

chequita guevara · February 9, 2002, 17:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Kyle
Well, they too came from 'someplace else.' Really, the only difference between us and the "native" americans is that they've been here a really, really long time.

Yeah, but no one else was there before them, so that makes them the original inhabitants, kinda like Icelanders and Polynesians.

gopher · February 9, 2002, 17:53

Quote:

The real task is to integrate them into the story of America, and abolish the need for seperate studies.

Amen, but methinks it will not happen for many generations

EDIT: Got that damn quote slash right

GePap · February 9, 2002, 19:01

And what exactly is white? Do you include the dirty Italians ? Those damn Pollacks? Those Drunken Irish? The sub-human Slavs? The Jews!!? White is a label created to divide Europeans from everybody else, and it is a totally false identity, since 'white' groups have different histories, languages, from each other.
That's why there are Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans, Polish-Americans, and all these other European hyphens out there, or why there is a German-American parade in NYC just for Germans, not all 'whites'.

As for 'hispanic', that is also crap. Which hispanic do you feel like gopher? Mexican, Argentine, Chilean, Brazilian, Cuban, Puerto Rican, Peruvian, Guatemalan, Costa Rican, Panamanian, Honduran, nicaraguan?, so forth and so on. Back in Latin America, 'hispanic' exsist only as a way to separate out gringos and eurotrash, but most 'hispanics' hate each other as much as anyone else. Go to a Mexican neighborhood acting Puerto Rican and see how long you last.

Lesson of the day- the bigger the identity label, the more it is a work of politics and history, not real connections or feelings.

JohnT · February 9, 2002, 19:03

I thought that "White Cultural Identity" was roughly synonomous with "Western Civilization." Or something like that.

Bereta_Eder · February 9, 2002, 19:51

Quote:

Originally posted by GePap
And what exactly is white? Do you include the dirty Italians ? Those damn Pollacks? Those Drunken Irish? The sub-human Slavs? The Jews!!? White is a label created to divide Europeans from everybody else, and it is a totally false identity, since 'white' groups have different histories, languages, from each other.

I agree the "white" identity is a made up, a hoax. never existed. I wonder who thought it up and why?

could it be the americans so they could differantiate themselves from the blacks without dividing themselves?

or was it the english to differantaite themsleves from the colonials?

who ever it was it did one hell of a service to modern racist ideology and it still goes on in those countries that had something to do with manufacturing that "white" identity.

Hydey · February 9, 2002, 23:14

At least Australia had the
"White Australia Policy" to cling on to

Natan · February 9, 2002, 23:18

It's not that white people don't have pride in their origins, it's just that they aren't a monolithic group. I know I'm proud of my Ashkenazi Jewish origin, and I know a lot of people who are proud of their Irish, Italian, Russian, or Scotish origins. It's just that there's nothing special about saying "I'm jimbob and I'm proud of my low melanin count" - it takes more than that to create an identity.

orange · February 9, 2002, 23:25

Simple...

Black Pride = good
White Pride = Racism

Gay pride = good
Straight pride = intolerance

Non-Christian religious pride = good
Christian religious pride = fanaticism

Anglo-Saxon-American is viewed as the 'dominant' race on the planet, so it is seen as the norm...every other race is like an underdog, fighting for recognition for its own greatness in history, which is why things like black history month, hispanic pride month, etc. are celebrated and why any form of expressing pride for being Anglo-Saxon-American is simply seen as overstating the obvious, supressing others with your already dominant 'superiority'

faded glory · February 9, 2002, 23:32

well orange damn you, your right. again

orange · February 9, 2002, 23:47

Quote:

Originally posted by faded glory
well orange damn you, your right. again

Well, I'm not exactly sure your feelings on the subject, but let me make one thing absolutely clear...

I do not have any problem with the celebration of cultural history, in fact, i rather enjoy studying it! I just think that it's a shame for one type of pride to be considered a positive thing, and another type of pride considered racist.

I personally find it pointless to have pride in one's color or race, as that is not something one can chose for himself. For example, I'm not 'proud' to be white, I'm not proud to be Irish German and English, nor am I proud to be male. I don't think it makes sense to have pride in such things, but again, those are my own views and if someone is proud of any factor about them, I'm not going to think less of them or more of them. Sort of like religion, I don't have one, but if you have one it doesn't change my opinion of you in the slightest (so long as you're not spouting fanaticism and making completely illogical statements

) All I want in return is the same respect given to me, the respect to make my own choices

mactbone · February 10, 2002, 00:25

I'm not sure how it would be if I lived somewhere else, but since I live in America, I take some pride in my Irish and German heritage. It's a way for me to look back into the past of my ancestor's and feel good about what they may have done. I think most Americans, consider themselves Americans, but their ancestor's cam from somewhere else, so there is more history thatn just American history.

gopher · February 10, 2002, 01:48

Quote:

Originally posted by GePap
And what exactly is white? Do you include the dirty Italians ? Those damn Pollacks? Those Drunken Irish? The sub-human Slavs? The Jews!!? White is a label created to divide Europeans from everybody else, and it is a totally false identity, since 'white' groups have different histories, languages, from each other.

True, but those are more Nationalist identities, save for Judiasm, which is religious. In my experiance, for instance, African Americans are very culturally identified, no matter if their ansectry is from the first slave ship to New Amsterdam to first generation from Africa/Carribiean/Etc.
I agree that white is a label. However, like it or not, that label is a large part of our identity. Now, I ask why is it that many people I talk to do not feel cultury identified as whites, whereas my hispanic and black friends (even some asians) identify themselfs as "African Americans" or "Hispanics", whereas my white friends and myself look twords other labels. I think that some people here have hit it on the head by saying that since white is the "norm" or "The Man" in this country, we don't tend to generalize with the norm. We crave uniqueness.

Quote:

As for 'hispanic', that is also crap. Which hispanic do you feel like gopher? Mexican, Argentine, Chilean, Brazilian, Cuban, Puerto Rican, Peruvian, Guatemalan, Costa Rican, Panamanian, Honduran, nicaraguan?, so forth and so on. Back in Latin America, 'hispanic' exsist only as a way to separate out gringos and eurotrash, but most 'hispanics' hate each other as much as anyone else. Go to a Mexican neighborhood acting Puerto Rican and see how long you last.

Ah, good pont. However, we are looking from an American perspective. In S.A, an Argentinian (which I am 50%) thinks of themselfs a world apart from a Chilean. Here, however, in every case I have seen, from College to my entire family which immigrated here, those differences become mute. A sort of communial identity of Hispanic surfaces, thats why it's not just Mexicans that celebrate Cesar Chavez day, or why all my La Raza clubs and other Hispanic activities range from Puerto Rico to Cuba to Paraguay. Same for many Asian groups, and definatly for African Americans.
Go into that Mexican neighborhood as a Hispanic, then go in as a black or white person, i bet you are treated better as a hispanic.

Quote:

Lesson of the day- the bigger the identity label, the more it is a work of politics and history, not real connections or feelings.

Amen, but we can't just ignore what is real life. People label eachother. Get over it. The more we reconize and question those feelings and labels, the better we are to deal with them in the future, and perhaps eventually not label people in real life, but thats messing with human nature

GePap · February 10, 2002, 02:30

How many identities does a person have?

There is family, neighborhood, town, county, state or province, state, nationality (there is a difference between state and nationality, USA is a state, German a nationality- sometimes they are the same, but not always), politics, class, religion, sexual orientation (for those who care), hobbies (like Apolyton), an perhaps even more. How one labels themselves depends on which they view as the most important. Yes, many African Americans join clubs in their schools, but not all, those that don't because they don't place it as their key identity. Most folk see themselves as part of agroup to differentiate from the other- most whites see whites as the majority (in some places, not true anymore) so that way of classification is not important- then nationality becomes key, like Irish or Italian. Groups that have historically felt as outsider, usually becuase they were treated as such, like minorities, more easily identify themselves as being on the out, so they congragate in the identities that matter. My university has a Korean students association because Koreans see themselves as a minority and hang together for confort. Back in Korea, they might not even talk to each other.

Perhaps one of the most interesting questions in our lives, and in politics too, is which of these labels that make us, are we willing to die for. Even more impostant is which of these labels are we willing to kill for.

Evan von Christoph · February 10, 2002, 02:48

white identity was almost destroyed by the civil rites movement and micegenation, which was all part of an evil plot by the race that killed Christ, praise to him.

I'm glad I belong to an Aryan church!

JohnT · February 10, 2002, 02:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Evan von Christoph
white identity was almost destroyed by the civil rites movement and micegenation, which was all part of an evil plot by the race that killed Christ, praise to him.

I'm glad I belong to an Aryan church!

You are such a dweeb.

orange · February 10, 2002, 02:54

Quote:

Originally posted by gopher
Ah, good pont. However, we are looking from an American perspective. In S.A, an Argentinian (which I am 50%) thinks of themselfs a world apart from a Chilean. Here, however, in every case I have seen, from College to my entire family which immigrated here, those differences become mute. A sort of communial identity of Hispanic surfaces, thats why it's not just Mexicans that celebrate Cesar Chavez day, or why all my La Raza clubs and other Hispanic activities range from Puerto Rico to Cuba to Paraguay. Same for many Asian groups, and definatly for African Americans.
Go into that Mexican neighborhood as a Hispanic, then go in as a black or white person, i bet you are treated better as a hispanic.

I think this applies in many ways, not just America.

If I were to move to, say, Madagascar...and I met someone who was originally from Texas, one from Washington state, one from Maine, one from North Dakota, and one from Florida I would identify with them much more easily than I would if I met them in my home state of Pennsylvania, because of a common language, (probably) general skin color (again, assuming they are white) and common nationality in a land where those things are scarce. Perhaps that is why Hispanics and blacks, as minorities, tend to bond together in America becuase they share common qualities that make them closer than they are to the 'norm' WASPs. Perhaps that's why in South America an Argentinian and a Chilean are less likely to identify with each other...

I suppose the further away you get from the norm, the easier it is to eliminate some of the things that would have formerly separated you.

Skanky Burns · February 10, 2002, 05:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Hydey
At least Australia had the
"White Australia Policy" to cling on to

Good riddance too

Saint Marcus · February 10, 2002, 09:42

Quote:

I'm glad I belong to an Aryan church!

You do know Aryans are from south Asia, don't you?

Dr Strangelove · February 10, 2002, 10:38

Many of us Amricans of lightly pigmented persuasion have a major difficulty tracing all of our roots. If your ancestors were from Britain, Scotland, Germany, and France you might as well just label yourself "white". Most southerners who trace themselves back to antebellum times will also claim some Native American ancestry. This is usually a codeword signifying a trace of "brown sugar" in the gene pool.

Stefu · February 10, 2002, 10:46

EvC is troll! Kick troll out!
EvC is troll! Kick troll out!
EvC is troll! Kick troll out!
EvC is troll! Kick troll out!

Dr Strangelove · February 10, 2002, 11:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Saint Marcus

You do know Aryans are from south Asia, don't you?

Weren't the Aryans the people who invaded India in the 12th century BC and brought Brahmanism to the sub-continent?