crazy deity

[tommyd]

Deity!

It's driving me crazy!

I've read and tried out all the advice on this site, what I need help with is the details.

(all the games mentioned are deity & standard map size and settings)

For example: I've tried playing as the Persians, researching and securing iron and then cranking out immortals.
This takes a very long time, and the AI cities are all over the place. By the time I beat the AI down (if I do) to 2 or 3 cities, and taken all his tech, he's got even more the turn after, and I am still behind in the tech race.

I can only pop rush so many immortals before knights become the new unit, and they cost too many shields to pop rush.

So then I tried playing as the Aztecs, because people mention their great UU.
But by the time I get them anywhere, cities are being defended by spearmen!! And my UU is almost useless...

I've very frustrated, and I basically need clarification on these points:
1) How many cities should I generally expand to while I am building up a military?
2) How do I keep up in the tech race when I have nothing but gold that the computer will take?
3) How long should I wait in the beginning to go to war, and how long should I stay in war?
4) How do I get an AI to go to peace, as even when I take 3 out of 4 cities, they will refuse to acknowledge me because they have a bunch of wariors and think they have a big army
5) how many of what unit should I send after how many cities?
6) How many cities is a good number to pop rush with?

Thanks guys, I really need help with the specifics, as there is
obviously something I am missing here...

Tommy

[Harovan]

There have been a few good threads about winning in Deity:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=34073
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=40723

[tommyd]

Thanks, but I've read those threads already, several times...

They just leave out the specifics...It's one thing to say to
attack a civ and get it to sue for peace, it's another to say "send 5 immortals per city, minimum 3 cities, and try to take them all in 2 turns. Only send the immortals out after the AI has 10 cities..."

I've tried all the things I've read about here...but for some reason I am doing something wrong, missing some specific variable, that is keeping me from getting past the beginning game successfully...

Tommy

[Aeson]

Originally posted by tommyd
I can only pop rush so many immortals before knights become the new unit, and they cost too many shields to pop rush.

This is the Immortal's flaw on Standard+ sized maps. Conquest will just take too long, and then your army of Immortals ends up being obsolete. Try concentrating more on the Horse unit line for offense, which is upgradeable unless you use a Civ with a Knight/Calvary type UU.

So then I tried playing as the Aztecs, because people mention their great UU. But by the time I get them anywhere, cities are being defended by spearmen!! And my UU is almost useless...

The power of the Jag Warriors is somewhat lost on Deity. They still make cheap "terrorist" type units, but aren't effective as actual military. Just use them to pillage, as decoys, and to capture workers and settlers. I prefer Impies though, as they are upgradeable all the way to Mech Infantry, and have a much lower mortality rate.

Thanks guys, I really need help with the specifics, as there is obviously something I am missing here...

There really isn't a constant strategy that will work with all Deity starts. Your playstyle has to take advantage of what resources you are given and how many AI are on the same landmass. A couple of general rules are to pick a strategy, and stick to it. Keep your units in large stacks (5 minimum, 10-20 is usually a good idea), and only attack with overwhelming numbers.

I've very frustrated, and I basically need clarification on these points:
1) How many cities should I generally expand to while I am building up a military?
2) How do I keep up in the tech race when I have nothing but gold that the computer will take?
3) How long should I wait in the beginning to go to war, and how long should I stay in war?
4) How do I get an AI to go to peace, as even when I take 3 out of 4 cities, they will refuse to acknowledge me because they have a bunch of wariors and think they have a big army
5) how many of what unit should I send after how many cities?
6) How many cities is a good number to pop rush with?

1. Get as many cities as possible. Don't stop building settlers even once all the land is taken. Your culture rating is going to suck compared to any of the AI's, so razing cities and rebuilding is more efficient. If you don't have a settler to rebuild with, one of the other AI certainly will.

2. Other than playing Expansionist on Huge maps, there really isn't a way to keep up in tech early on, other than military conquest. Just buy your way to Horseback Riding as soon as possible, hook up the Horses, and start the conquest. Just don't attack the Zulu's first, as they will eat up enough of your Horsemen to not be worth it.

4. The AI doesn't negotiate very often with the patch, just keep your forces tightly packed and move through the AI territory razing cities, eventually they will come to the table.

5. Concentrate all your offensive forces on one target at a time. You can never have enough military. If you have two times the Horsemen you think it will take, build more. I like to have ~100 Horsemen by the time Chivalry rolls around, and enough gold to upgrade them instantly. Having at least 20 before your first attack (with some sort of defensive/settler support) is a good idea. Keep several 2 movement units out scouting (Impies work best, Jags and Horsemen will do), as your Horsemen can react to the AI troop movement fast enough to take advantage of whatever they do.

6. Different city sites can rush military at different rates. 2-5 turns are the most common, try to get enough so that you are producing 2+ units per turn. This is anywhere from 5-20 cities, depending on the food sources you control. As always, the more the better. If you take care of your Horsemen, you shouldn't lose many, and even 2 per turn will eventually add up.

Try using the Zulu in a game. Inbetween settler builds, build several scouts, and try to pop as many huts as possible with them. Usually 1 scout and then 1 warrior can be built before growing to size 2, then a scout, settler. The next time through you can get 3 scouts before a settler. Any city that is corrupt or doesn't have a more than 1 shield should build workers until there is more production available, or until you've irrigated those bonus food sources to begin pop rushing. 1 warrior per city is enough of a garrison in most cases, just make sure to have a few Impies around to move from city to city when needed.

As soon as you can, get Iron Working and The Wheel, and just fortify a scout on any Iron resource you can find to keep the AI from building roads there. If you have extra scouts, park some on Horses. It is a bit of an exploit, but can give you an extra jump start from a military standpoint. If your scouts come across an AI road outside their territory, pillage it as well. It will slow down the AI expansion a bit. Once you have enough scouts, build barracks and Impies. Once you get Horseback riding, then start rushing Horsemen. You can keep any high production cities just normally building Impies and Settlers, while the more corrupt and high food cities rush Horsemen. This allows you to gradually develop good infrastructure, while still having a valid military. Get at least 10 Horsemen in a stack before making your first attack. Having 2+ Impies per Horsemen stack makes your army almost invincible as long as the AI doesn't have Iron.

Try to target the AI that has built the Great Library or the Pyramids if they are nearby. I usually hold off on building any graneries until I see who builds the Pyramids. If they are out of reach, I build a granery only when it makes a big difference in rush frequency. High food areas (4+ food squares) keep the rate up high enough without one, and every granery you build is setting you back 2 initial units.

Before attacking, get a couple groups of Impies close to the Iron sources of that AI, and then fortify 3 or more on the Iron in AI territory. Iron is on hills and mountains, and your Impies should be able to hold the Iron until that AI is ready to surrender. Your scouts that have been holding the resource makes for great AI bait. Their armies will chace you around, and you can delay any reaction to your invasion for a couple of turns. Just try and stay away from roads! Once they do give in, you can move your Scout back (build another if your decoy bites it) to hold the resource if it is still in AI territory. It is best to target these areas during the conquest though. Having your Horsemen meet up with your "Iron" Impies early on just makes your stacks that much more potent. Raze all the cities you take, except for the GL or Pyramid city. This will up your unit count with captured workers (increase your power) and you can rebuild without the threat of reversion. You can keep any cities that you get for signing peace though, they usually make great Impi factories and don't revert most of the time.

Probably by this time the Ancient Era will be drawing to a close, just make sure to have a lot of cash available for the Knights upgrade. It costs 80 Gold per Horseman, or 40 with Leo's. If you've kept some of the other AI without Iron (not including the Indians and to a lesser extent the Greeks) your Knights should cut through their empires like butter. Keep your Impies around to guard wounded Knights still, and to keep the Iron out of the AI's reach. Even against Knights, a few fortified Impies on a mountain can hold out for quite a while.

Try to get to Gunpowder as fast as possible (after Knights beeline to Military Tradition), and get some more Scouts/Impies on the Saltpeter resouces. I've been able to get to Calvary this way, while keeping 8 AI without Iron or Saltpeter on a Huge/Pangaea/Deity game. 6 of the AI also never got their hands on horses. It's possible to keep a few AI without Iron just using Impies (no Scout trick), but much harder because you will be at war with them almost from day one. You can usually withdraw your troops and get back in position a few times times before you have to declare war. War isn't bad when they only have Archers and Spearmen though

[solo]

It seems hopeless when first trying deity, so welcome to the club of those who persist in trying!

You are not limited to an aggressive approach. You may find some useful alternatives in my "quest" and "sneak attack prevention" threads.

[Aeson]

One point about captured workers. You will have tons of them if you raze the AI's cities. Use some of them as decoys from your stacks (especially if the AI has horsemen or swordsmen). The others can help improving terrain, but the best use is to add them to a pop rushing city. Just make sure the city has 1 shield into its current build, and then every captured worker becomes a Horseman the next turn. In cases of every other turn rushing cities, workers aren't needed. It's best to use them in the poorest food source cities. After a few more rushes, your city will be back to your own nationality.

[Dodgy Geezer]

A few questions for Aeson or any other Deity loving civ-er. I have been playing CIV3 almost continually since it was released, and have beat it at every level up to Deity, on all maps except islands (hate those islands!). But the big D keeps eluding me (I have only tried it a handful of times mind you). I have read this thread and started a Zulu game. I was even lucky enough to pop a settler my first village. But I still can't seem to get it - by the time I got horses they had swordsmen and I was at war on their terms. So, on to my questions:

1. Do you have to a perfect start position AND surroundings to stand a chance? In my last Zulu game I had cow/two bonus grasslands to start, but was bounded by Jungle to the north and desert to the south. My popped settler therefore had to be placed some distance away, creating a bit of a gap between my first and subsequent cities. I was then forced to go to war with someone who tried to fill the gap before I could.

2. Is there a best map type (or special start conditions such as fewer players) to start with? I am trying on standard Pangaea.

3. When do you know to give up? I have played a Deity game to completion (ended up coming second, out of two remaining civs!). My current Zulu game has me trailing the world at around 1000bc, but I am up with techs.

Any help gratefully received.

[Aeson]

Expansionist Civs do better the larger the map. The Zulu's are play best on Huge/Pangaea maps. A standard sized Pangaea map won't give too much of a bonus, though the Scouts can be used effectively to deny Iron to the AI. On the smaller maps, the Scouts are easy to get into position. Lower barbarian settings help, though on Deity the AI seems to search and destroy the barb camps quite efficiently. If you start out researching Alphabet, Masonry, or Ceremonial Burial, you stand a better chance of getting Bronze Working, The Wheel, Iron Working, Warrior Code, and Horseback Riding from huts. Those are the important Ancient Era techs for this playstyle. If you are even on tech by 1000BC, then you should be in good position for later on in the game.

Don't worry too much about Swordsmen, with your movement advantage they shouldn't pose much of a threat. Just keep to high ground and try to lure them into open terrain. Having Impies along with your Horse stacks works well against Swordsmen. The Impies retreat from the Swordsmen, giving your Horses the counterattack. Targetting Iron sources before the Middle ages is important though, Pikemen aren't too fun to fight against until you have Knights. Keeping Knights out of target AI's hands should be a priority as well.

In a starting position like you described, setting up your first couple of cities close together can help a lot. With 3 good food squares and 2 cities, one city can keep pumping out the settlers, while the other keeps the scouts/military going. All a city really needs in the ancient era is 1 or 2 food sources. Just make sure to build your cities on the worst food terrain possible. Later on you will want to disband your pop rushing cities anyways, to get rid of unhappiness buildup. Also disbanding your capitol can be beneficial in many cases, as it gives a free palace build in your (usually) highest population city. Once multiple cities get above size 4 though, it becomes less precise.

[tommyd]

Aeson: Thanks for all your help!

Solo: Keep at it. They made Deity really hard, but if other people can do it, so can we.

Okay, I think I have all the specifics I need in the beginning game to compete with the AI. I started an Iroquis standard deity game, and there are 3 other civs on the biggest continent with me. I have 10 mounted warriors (please tell me they'll upgrade to knight...), and I am forced to start a quick war because one of the civ's area of influence has cut into my road to horses...

My next question has to do about a few specifics for the middle game. When I get the civs on this continent to 2-3 cities, I'm going to start changing my government and building libraries/marketplaces/universities...etc to compete with research against all the civs on the other continents...

My questions:

1) Any specific way to use the AIs as vassals? My past experience has shown me they will not talk with me/make peace, even if they have a few dinky cities left, and if I take them to force peace, the civ is too weak to really help me...

2) The civs on the other continents will be racing with me tech wise, any way to keep them down by forcing them to spend their money on me?

And one more pre-middle game question: 3) I'll have my 100 horsemen that upgrade to knights, then I'll probably upgrade my knights to cavalry. I assume that once knights come along and I start upgrading, there is no more pop-rushing those higher units? I'll probably have to start upping my shield production on perm. cities to make the higher units...right?

Thanks for your help everyone...

And Aeson: you especially sound like a Deity Killer! You've really helped me understand the finer points of this game.

Tommy

[Aeson]

Solo is actually one of the better Deity players from what I've seen, the OCC games he and ToeTruck have played are really impressive.

As long as you are at peace with the AI who's cultural borders have overlapped your road to horses, you shouldn't be denied the supply. They should be your first target though, but don't attack until you have the proper forces built up. The longer you can wait for the initial rush, the more tech the AI will have to give to you, and the more spread out their forces will be. Of course you don't want to wait too long and have to deal with Pikemen and Knights. Try to target the Iron sources to really have an advantage in the Middle ages.

1. With the patch, any vassalization strategy really took a hit. Depending on the layout of the land and how many cities you have, it may just be better to take it all for yourself. This can help you secure a front completely, and not have to worry so much about protecting your flank in later wars. One thing you can do with "beaten" AI is renegotiate peace treaties every 20 turns. Sometimes you can get a city or two, or some extra per turn income. This usually works if you have more cities and military units. AI which you have recently been at war with are more likely to give away cities. It helps keep up your expansion rate, and every city you get in this manner comes with a free defensive unit.

2. If you are really worried about falling too far behind the other continent, use a military alliance to start a war between the AI over there. Just ally with the Civ who gives you the cheapest deal to attack one of their neighbors, try to keep it between equal rivals though. The AI's research will slow considerably if they can't switch to Republics. You wont have to worry much about invasions, since the AI who you are at war with will be tied up with their neighbors. Just make sure to keep enough Horse units around your territory to repel any landing invasions. Usually the AI won't land more than 2-4 units on any given turn though. If there are several Civs, you might want to try starting a mini world war by signing a couple military alliances. The AI will often take care of that on their own though.

The AI Civs on your continent that you haven't crippled yet should be able to keep pace either way, as they will still be in the trading loop (given that they all have contacts). You can either buy your way into the loop, or continue the conquest to get you to that point. Once on par with the AI, it isn't too difficult to stay even with them, just buy tech from the leaders, and sell it to as many of the less advanced as you can. Sometimes the AI tech trading on your turn can really hurt though. If you want to be safe, just buy whatever techs everyone already has, except for the important ones like Gunpowder and Military Tradition. Often you can research those first yourself, as the AI tends to favor the more "enlightened" type of techs that offer wonders.

3. Using pop rushing for Knights and Calvary is still very productive. Use step rushing so that it only takes 2 population points for each unit. When your city grows to size 2, rush a Longbowman then switch in the same turn to a Knight. Wait until you grow back to size 2, then rush the Knight. Calvary work the same way. Certainly you need to build up a productive core at the same time to prepare for a government switch, just continue pop rushing in the more corrupt cities. Once you are done pop rushing in a city, sell any improvements and rush a settler to disband the city (size 1 or 2 with no excess food per turn), then rebuild. The happiness problems will be gone.

I wouldn't make the government switch too soon. After switching from Despotism to any other government, there will be more support costs involved. Republic and Democracy won't pay for any free units. Monarchy only gets 2 units free for small (less than 7) cities, which all of your pop rushing ones will be. Monarchy doesn't help commerce at all directly (slight decrease in corruption), and the extra food is negated by no pop rushing. Remember that your 100 Mounted Warriors will take 8000 gold to upgrade to Knights, and another 1000 to Calvary. With Leo's it would be half that. Mounted Warriors that you can't upgrade will still be effective, just make sure they stay stacked with your Knights for defensive purposes. Making the switch to Republic will be hard with a large standing army, and certainly difficult if you are at war. Make sure to have lots of marketplaces, temples, and cathedrals in place before making the switch. Try to have at least 3 or 4 luxuries and a few thousand spare gold in the treasury as well. Playing a religious Civ is nice though, if you do switch too soon it isn't hard to go right back.

[tommyd]

In the game I started, the Aztecs were the ones whose border ran onto my road, so I did target them first, and then couldn't build horsemen with the cities beyond that road...

I was basically forced to go to war early, because I didn't get enough cities to support my army, and ran out of room to expand...

I also tried to secure horses from the Russians with my scout, but they asked me to move him or go to war...

Beyond that, everything seems to be going well...the only problem I've seen is being slowed down by my lack of settlers, as I don't want to pop-rush them because I'm already losing 2 pop points...

Alright, I will let you guys know how it goes...

Thanks for all the info Aeson.

Tommy

[tommyd]

I'm almost there! I'm so close to beating Deity I can almost...nope. I'm going to need more help.

I'm pretty much at the middle game now, and I must admit that this is the part I'm worst at!!!

Here are the stats for my game:

DEITY! (ahem)
540 AD
19 cities
Tech is at Nationalism, and I am 1 tech behind
123 gold a turn (82 from civs)
58 mounted warriors and 6 calavry (I have a strong army compared to every civ except 2 where I am average)
Despotism Government
Forbidden Palace built

Okay, my main problem is switching to republic (or democracy) and getting the tech lead
I have a lot of luxuries, but no one seems to want them for more than 20 gold a turn (and that' s being nice, some will just give me 1 gold a turn for them...so I say no.)
I only really have 4 cities without much corruption. There was a lot of desert around me which forced me to space some of them out around there. Unfortunately, my palace city has been left by itself.

I want to get the tech lead and win by space race. I don't really want to go to war anymore if I can help it. I'm going to build libraries, universities, marketplaces, and banks in those 4 really good cities. I also got Newton's University in the city with the forbidden palace and at least over 20 russian workers...

Railroads will be coming soon, so I will be able to get my production up...

Now for my questions:

1) What are some of the tricks I can do, or things I should look for, to help me get the tech lead and keep it (mostly). As all the civs seem to be equal in tech, I can't find a leader to buy from and sell to the others...
2) What kind of production and beakers should I be looking to get? From how many cities?
3) When should I switch my governement? Which government is best to switch to?
4) How do I get the big money in...I doubt hovering around +125 will really get me much science research...

Thanks guys, you've been a big help. I wish I could figure out some of this stuff on my own, but I have no idea how half these strategies were thought out in the first place!


Tom

[Aeson]

Someone like Solo would probably be able to answer these questions better than I could, I have a hard time being peaceful I'll give it a shot though.

How does your number of cities compare to the other Civs? If it is near even, you are in a very good position. Using the Iroquois (Religious) should make for a painless switch of goverment. I would recommend Democracy, as you can easily switch back to Monarchy, Despotism, or Communism (later) if any future wars should break out. Your income should just about double with the switch, though your army will eat up some of that. I wouldn't get rid of too many of your units though, as staying at least average in military strength is a good idea. The big money will come if you can get in a possition to research Techs first. Build all the infrastructure that you can, even in the more corrupt cities. On a standard map you can have 16 of your cities at least somewhat productive before you hit the "absolute" corruption wall. Switching to Democracy will lower corruption a bit for most of your cities, as will a Courthouse and Police Station.

You can set up your completely corrupt cities (should be 3 of them right?) as drafting camps. These are size 7 cities to start (granery, happiness improvements), and hover at size 6 with a full food box. Every turn your city will grow to size 7, you can draft a unit, move the unit to be disbanded for production in another city, and your city will be set to grow back to size 7 the next turn. Disbanding a Rifleman yeilds 20 shields I think, Infantry is 22 or 23, and Mech Infantry is 27 IIRC. Sort of a cheesy tactic, so it's up to you whether to use it or not. This can really help speed up non-wonder production. I haven't used it much, so I'm not sure how much the unhappiness will let you do. I think with a temple, colloseum, cathedral, marketplace, and enough luxuries it works indefinitely.

The AI will almost certainly get involved in a post-Nationalism world war, happens just about every game. Don't sign any MPP's and you should be able to take the tech lead when that happens. Theory of Evolution is very valuable on Deity, you might want to start prebuilding it now (use the palace). The number of shields needed for the Palace varries by number of cities, not sure how many it will take on your game. ToE takes 600 Shields to build, so try and time it to have close to that by the time you get Scientific Method. Definitely start it before the AI's start with their Universal Sufferage builds, otherwise the spillover will beat you to ToE. Before you build ToE, buy up all the cheaper techs you might have missed along the way, so that you will get the more costly advances for free. If you are researching The Corporation when ToE is built (and have all the other Techs up to then, including Communism and Espionage), you should get Atomic Theory and Electronics from ToE. Your first city to build a Factory and have a fresh water source should start the pre-build for Hoover Dam as soon as possible. After that I would research Replaceable Parts and Radio.

Don't hold onto any of the Tech's you get first too long, as its important to cut down the AI's per turn gold income, so it can't allocate as much to research. The only exceptions are Electronics (and to some extent Atomic Theory), and then in Modern Times Fission is very important. Assuming that you fought a lot of wars, not getting the UN will most likely lead to a loss, start the pre-build early.

Beating the AI to a launch should be easy, as the AI tends to not put very much emphasis on finishing its spaceship until you are nearing completion. If you time the prebuild of your last spaceship part to when you would be getting the corresponding advance you should always get it. This is how the OCC launches are possible, as the AI should always launch first otherwise.

[ledj]

Iroqouis is my favor civ for a deity game. Before switching to republic, the most important thing is about happiness. I normally have Sistine Chapel and/or J Bach's Cathedral, and build a cathedral in most of cities. I will trade all of the luxuaries with AI for tech, luxuary or gold. I would take whatever I can get. You need to establish a tech lead now so you can build Hoover Dam. First build a factory and a coal plant in your most productive city. Then start to build palace before changing to Hoover Dam. If AI started to build Hoover Dam before you. Then you need to have a war with an AI for producing great leaders. It is not likely to win a space race without Hoover Dam. After Hoover Dam , beeline to computer. If you build the SETI, it will assure your science lead. Just my two cents

[solo]

tommyd,

What is the status of your game now? Are any of the AI at full strength, and if so, how many? Also, how fast are you researching new techs now(turns to learn)?

I can offer specific advice for this game after getting answers to these questions. When I have a chance, I will insert some general advice in answer to your 4 questions if you would like me to.

I go along with Aeson, especially about the importance of building the ToE, but might have much more to add, depending on the status of your current game.

By the way, the new patch gets rid of pop-rushing, so it will be back to the drawing boards for military rush strategies.

solo

[tommyd]

Aeson: Thanks for all the info. You helped fill a lot of small gaps in my knowledge...

Solo: Here are the stats for my game:

I've got 19 cities, China has 17, and everyone is lower than that...

China and zulu are on their own continents, and both have average armies compared to me.
England and France are on the same continent, and I have a strong army compared to them.

Russia, Iroquis(me), and Persia are all on the same continent (Aztecs have been destroyed). Russia has about 10 cities, and Persia has about 9 as well (but they are squeezed into mountainous terrain, and can't get their pop up too much)

I used 5 cities as temp cities to pop rush my units.
I have about 57 mounted horesmen and 10 cavalry
Knights have shown up, but I've had to skip past them.

TECH:
Tech wise, I am two techs behind: artistry, and nationalism.
Industrialization is about to be discovered by Persia first (go figure).
I have about 1000 gold, with +135 a turn because of all my luxurious to other civs.
Zulu and Rusia are way behind everyone in tech...

MAP:
(going from left to right) My capitol is a bit isolated because of mountains and desert, followed with my 5 temp cities all lined up in a row, followed by the city with the forbidden palace, and Newton's University, and 2 good cities near it.

(quick map)

t
t g
c t f
t g
t

c = capital t = temp city f=forbidden palace & newt's univ city
g = good cities

I want to disband 4 of the 5 temp cities (one has a harbor), use the settlers to make them good cities, and switch to democracy
I also have my f city building a palace, waiting for TOE to come along.

Was that enough info?

About the pop rush thing: I heard it wasn't taken out, they just fixed it so when you pop rush it gets rid of the happy citizen instead of the unhappy one. (if this were true, I guess it would mean that more temples and cathedrals would have to be built before the city could be pop rushed?)

Have you found an alternative (besides pop rushing) that works to keep the player in line with the computer on Deity?

Tommy

[tommyd]

solo: my little map was butchered...oh well...

Tommy

[Aeson]

The easiest way to stay on par with the AI tech wise will be to play on a huge map with lots of land as an Expansionist civ (lots of techs from huts). Not everyone is going to want to play those settings though, the games get pretty tedious eventually. Building your core cities up to size 5 or 6 allows for near pop-rushing efficiency in producing military, but take longer to set up. The problem is that corruption keeps most of your cities from producing anything near that rate, those cities aren't going to be nearly as useful anymore. Using a Civ with a later UU will be more viable now, as they can be upgraded to when the slow military buildup phase is complete.

[solo]

tommyd,

Okay, I get the picture. Most of my experience is limited to games where the AI had many more cities than myself, so it is difficult to estimate how quickly they are researching in comparison to you, but my guess is that they are learning a little faster than you are at this point in the game, since they have a slight lead now. To answer your questions:

1) The best way to slow them down is by being the first one to as many techs as possible. Luxury sales help, but the newest techs are where the real action is. It’s called tech whoring at lower levels, but in deity it is a vital ingredient to success. Fresh techs, which can be sold to the AI for large amounts of gold/turn, force them to lower their rate of research, making it easier for you to get additional techs first. Tricks to being first? Not many.

a) As suggested by Aeson, go straight for Theory of Evolution, which is best approached through Electricity. If you learn this first, AI’s will probably have learned Medicine and Industrialization( which they are more likely to go for before Electricity) in the meantime, which you can acquire by trading Electricity. If you pre-build early enough and precede the pre-build with a rushed factory (and maybe a coal plant, too), ToE should be yours by the time you learn Scientific Method. The turn before building ToE, check all the AI, and acquire all techs you don’t already have. Suppose you can not afford this, which is likely. Consider stealing the most advanced tech you don’t have and using this to trade for others you still lack. For me, a “safe” steal has always worked, although it costs an average of 3000 gold, so save up. If you are behind in tech at this point in the game, and lack enough for a “safe” steal, you may have to bet the outcome of the game on a riskier theft to have any chance to win. If worked right, ToE will give you a temporary 2 tech lead. Sell immediately, first to the fastest AI learners for as much gold/turn as you can get to slow down their science.

b) Always go as deeply into the tech tree as possible with each new research choice. So after Scientific Method, a good plan is to proceed straight across towards Radio, another reason being that the AI prefer the techs above this line through the tree, too. This will give you better chances for learning a tech first, giving you leverage to acquire other techs and to command large gold/turn payments.

c) In the Modern Age, I go for Computers first for the same reasons as in b), above. You will need SETI and especially research labs ASAP. I would save cash for a theft of Space Flight and leave it up to one of the AI to discover it first, while taking the Ecology - Synthetic Fibers route after Computers. Both command excellent gold payments from the AI, yet the AI are more likely to go after other techs first. Go figure why. Important to consider, is that Synthetic Fibers permits you to build the biggie, SS Exterior Casing plus 2 other SS parts, so you’ll want to have enough time to do this. IMO, arriving here last would be a big mistake, with too much left to do. I usually plan to learn Laser last, and have SS Planetary Party Lounge ready to go the turn of discovery. The AI may seem a bit lackadaisical about SS part acquisitions, but will still beat you most of the time to the last part if you let them. Only one of my wins so far has been by more than 1 SS part, or by a margin of 2 turns or less.

d) You are almost sure to lose if you hold back on selling new techs you acquire. You better have a game-winning reason not to sell them for as much as possible right away.

2) Rather than beaker counts, consider how many turns its taking for you to learn a new tech. Over 20, and you will fall behind well behind, I bet, and lose. If you are managing 15 or better, chances are even. It goes without saying that you should concentrate science improvements in the cities having the most commerce. Try to get all your science wonders in the same city, to magnify its beaker production. Remember that the AI research rate is basically double what yours is, and consider that they will build science everywhere eventually and get faster at learning just when the cost of techs jumps up in the Modern Age. You better get there first, or at least at the same time, to have a reasonable chance, because there aren’t any off-path techs to distract them there, except maybe Genetics which they may take a detour to for its wonders.

3) Republic or Democracy are needed for research. Switch as soon as all wars are concluded. With double-speed workers, Democracy is probably best.

4) 100 gold/turn is not that bad. You can do okay at that level, as long as you can bump this up temporarily when getting a tech first and selling it.

Finally, when I started learning OCC in CivII, I found the game logs of the best players to be invaluable. They provided insights into successful strategies and most important, the details about how to pay the game that way. With specific builds and timelines, and identical starts to play practice games with, the logs were very useful to me for comparing my progress to that of the master OCC players. Logs of successful games will contain the details that you have been asking for in this thread. Though OCC is much harder on deity in CivIII, a lot can be gleaned from the posted and attached logs in my “Quest for an OCC launch” thread. The starts are attached to that thread, too. Another thread containing logs by myself and Toe Truck are in the thread that introduced the Five City Challenge: here is the link

tommyd,

A few other points:

1) You can check the science rate of an AI by investigating any city. Pick the cheapest, of course, since all city displays show this. If their science is set at about 30%, this is good and where you want it to be. If it is over 50%, this AI will keep beating you to techs unless you are able to arrange more trades to be getting more gold/turn.

2) If an AI can not pay you much for a tech you are trying to sell, sometimes waiting just a few turns will make a big difference. So while you should sell techs as soon as you get them, you shouldn’t sell them if the AI will not pay well. Along this line, it may also be a mistake to sell a tech to an AI if it permits construction of a vital wonder you are working on that is less than half complete. Also beware that although AI’s do not pre-build purposely, they can do this inadvertently, if a wonder they are working on is completed by someone else. They might shift accumulated shields to the one you want if they have the tech in time.

3) Wait as long as possible to acquire non-vital techs from the AI. Their cost will go down substantially if you wait long enough. For example, why pay 1000 gold now for Communism, which you will never make any use out of, when you can get it later on for only 200? The only reason to acquire it, is to keep the ToE from presenting it to you, so be patient and conserve some gold.

4) Science improvements should all be rushed and given priority. Then if you build all happiness improvements, build marketplaces and import all the luxuries you can, you should be able to set science at 90 or 100%, something you should aim for. When science is maxed out, it makes no sense to build banks.

5) An alternative strategy for a good sized civ like yourself might be to generate as much income as possible and try to finance your way to tech parity by just buying and reselling the newest techs. However, you will always be no better than second to a new tech, and sometimes the AI just won’t sell. At deity level, their rate of research may outstrip your ability to make enough to afford new techs. As far as I know, no one has made a successful try at playing it this way in deity, although the strategy has worked well at lower levels.

6) Keep in mind that any AI with 5 or more cities in deity will be a challenge to you. Consider that that is all they need to beat the production and science rate of the useful cities you have yourself, which you say is only a handful.

7) That free tech at the start of each new age is BIG if you are a scientific civ. That first new age tech commands oodles of gold/turn from the AI who were left behind.


A final comment is that peaceful games are probably the hardest to win, especially by a launch in OCC. By allowing uncontested AI growth and expansion, you become a David among Goliaths. Playing this way is reminiscent of the feel of the “super deity” games we were trying for awhile in CivII. It’s also a lot of fun to win by wits rather than by brawn. For myself, conquest games become tedious the moment the advantage has been achieved.

[solo]

tommyd,

I read at Civfanatics that despot pop-rushing was eliminated. It may still be in use with Communism, though. Also note some edited additions to the post above. Also, NO DISRESPECT at all intended for those who prefer and enjoy military rush strategies. Wits are needed to be successful in that kind of game at deity, too, and just as much work, if not more, goes into developing those kinds of strategies. It's also fun to kick a little ### once in awhile, too!

solo

I guess I should visit the General forum more often. Pop-rushing was modified.

[tommyd]

Solo:

We'll have to wait a bit longer for the status on pop-rushing.

In the readme is says: Despotism-poprushing eliminated.
But another message (somewhere now lost) stated that someone
from firaxis mentioned that pop-rushing was changed: pre 2nd patch every time you pop-rushed the unhappy citizen was killed off, post 2nd patch they kill off the happy citizens first, leaving you with the unhappy ones...

Not sure which is true...

I think you've given me enough info to make a go of it now. Of course, if pop-rushing was eliminated in the patch, I may just feel like starting over...

What's the best thread to look at for info on an early game strategy that lets you somewhat compete with the AI without pop rushing?

Super Deity? Was that a higher Civ2 level? Or a way people played Civ2 differently?

Thanks for all your help!

Tommy

[solo]

Tommy,

I think I remember Soren responding to one the threads in the General Forum that pop-rushing would get rid of a happy guy in town and that repeated pop-rushing would lead to extra unhappiness that had to be dealt with, no matter how many citizens there were left after the pop.

Not much that I've seen about competing on deity without pop-rushing. I know that I do not do it in my games, but can't point you to others or their threads claiming success on that level without it. This attests to just how useful the strategy was. There is a good "builder" strategy thread on this forum that I looked at recently that may help you out.

In CivII, we discovered that we could edit one of the text files (I believe it was rules.txt), and just add Super Deity (or whatever you wanted to call it) below the Deity line where all the choices for difficulty are listed. The game creates a new, higher level. I think for our "super" games we went up even one more level by adding another. We also added a barbarian level, too. This made for some wild and wooly games!

[La Fayette]

solo
I changed my mind and played a lot of civ2 ( especially since Xin Yu was busy exploding all my previous records in CiC scenarios and that made me feel like having one more try) + civ3 tournament games, so I haven't tried civ3 deity level yet.
I find it very interesting reading you though, ... and it seems that I am going to need it badly, since people say that the new patch is going to kill my 'size6' strategy.


(La Fayette, dreaming of 'size 7' or something like that)

[solo]

La Fayette,

I was following the action in your CivII thread on the strategy forum. Xin Yu always manages to find a better way, doesn't he?

I'm playing out tournament #5 now, making the most out of "size 6" before loading the new patch. Looks like it has many improvements. Time will tell.

Would have replied earlier, but I think the forum here was down.

Tommy - Try the making the Great LIbrary after installing the new patch. The hardest part of catching up in deity is staying even with techs, which GL lets you do. Have fun with the rest of you current game.

solo