Diplomacy - spy operations

Harel · January 31, 2000, 19:54

Hey all!

In effort to further enhance the effect of my new summary, and improve the condition of the diplomacy section ( which all will agree, probably one of the most vital section in the upcoming CIV III ), I launch several dedicated threads that will deal with every specific element of the diplomacy.
Since the summary is so large ( and sometime hard to understand and track after ), you will find it easier to follow all the different options you have and suggest them here.
The information here is an abstract of the summary, and shows in a different format.

Spy operations

Here are all the things a spy can do:

1. Investigate city: allows the player to see, for one turn, the management of the enemy city. The entire city radii, what building it has, and the popultion distribution.

2. Establish ambsassy ( serves to give you key statistics on enemy civ every turn ).

3. Military status: see the positions of all the units which belog to the city, even those that are outside in the field right now.
4. Steal map: gain the empire map. Without tile improvements or units locations.

5. Get secret intel.

6. Sway away unit: pay X amount, and the targeted enemy unit become yours. The expreince level of the operator increase the chance, by high unit morale, exp and proper SE options reduce the chance. Not applyable to missiles.

7. Steal technolgy. A spy shouldn't be able to steal a technology far above thier current tech tree status. Even when a technology is stolen, thier should be a delay before you can construct the various improvements obtained from the stolen technology.

8. Steal blue-print: get the design of a certain unit ( if the project idea is used, see units thread ).

9. Steal money: the cost of operations must always be higher then what is gained by the process. The advantge is that it drains the treasure of the enemy.

10. Steal goods: for a certain turn, a certain amount of shields from the enemy city is moved to your nearest city ( or spy home city ), and boost production.

11. Damage unit: reduce unit health by 50%, and cripple it ( can't move for X turns ). The morale level of the unit is also reduced to the lowest level ( not exp, however ). The operator unit is destroyed.

12. Cause revolt: has a low chance the city will revolt. Still cheaper and with higher chance then a succesful bribing.

13. Nuclear deployment: see the positions of all the nukes in the civ, or atleast parts.

14. Rescue operator: if an operator has failed in it's mission, it caught and may be rescued for X turns.

15. Donate to terrorists: create an AI raider spy which will work against the city itself. Reduce the danger from yourself, but it cost a lot and the terrorist is less capale then your own operator.

16. Donate to criminal ( see economics thread for pirates ): you may donate money which goes directly to the pirates AI, which can then harrass the enemy even more.

17. Raid trade route: steal a low amount of money off any trade routes, or caravans, moving near you.

18. Sneak in supplies: only cities that are under vassal or autonomy status can be targeted thus. Increase the chance the AI will support your request to breakaway. Cost food and money.

19. Bribe a city: pay X amount, and the city is yours. However, you can't bribe a city which has military units in it, and the more resilent the enemy civ is ( set by her social engineering options ), the bigger the change the operation will fail alltogher. Cost of bribing, and chance of mission acomplishment also depends on the number and quality of the military units in the city, and the morale of the people of the citizens. All around, the morale should effect the cost of bribing more then anything else.

20. Nuke a city: acts just like a nuke hit the city, however with less pollution ( more advance bomb, if it's that small ), and bypassing SDI defence. However, a key observation was made: the cost of nuking a city must be higher then the cost of a normal nuke ( reasonable, isn't it? ).

21. Pollute/Poison water: reduce city popultion.

22. Destroy city building.

23. Steal nuke/missile: allows you to steal any un-maned that are sitting in a city ( like missiles and nukes ).

24. Kill nation leader ( only in capitol city ). Throws the entire nation to revolt, for a turn or two.

25. Destory trade route: destroy a trade route of the enemy, and kill all caravans on it.

26. Plant virus: plant a virus that spreads along the trade routes. Damage is set by the medical level fo the attacked civ.

Looking foward to hearing from you!

The diplomat · February 1, 2000, 16:00

Could you elaborate on point #5. Would the secret intel be stuff like SE settings, diplomatic status etc...? It sounds great.

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No permanent enemies, no permanent friends.

Harel · February 1, 2000, 17:00

To The diplomat:

General intel is explained in section 4.4 in the largr summary. However, I will also elaborate here:

General intel only applies to AI. It's the code name for classified information that doesn't fit anywhere else: embarrsing affairs, secret plans, every thing that is considered a national secret without being map or stasitic information.
The game does not explain what the intel "is", only mention it.

In the diplomacy screen you have the option off "use intel". This mean, you can use that intel to have leverage on your AI opponenet. You will gain a diplomatic bonus next time you will ask/demand/trade something with the AI.
Every intel can be used one time, but you can gather several points of intel on every nation.

The diplomat · February 1, 2000, 19:31

Thanks for the explanation.

Sikander · February 2, 2000, 01:16

I would divide the diplomat / spy unit into two units, one a special operations unit, like the U.S. Special Forces, Russian Spetsnats, or British SAS. The other spying operations would be accessed through an intelligence window, like in MOO II. There is no reason why a spy needs to be represented on the map by a unit, which can somehow occupy a huge area.

The Special Operations units would be Airborne Capable, Seaborne Capable etc. , and would do the more military operations of the spy ie negating ZOCs, infiltration, sabotage etc.

Spy units could be built, and pooled in the intel window, then allocated to various operations. These operations would include stealing tech, aiding insurrections, sabotage, and reporting information etc., as well as defensive operations (Counter-Intelligence). This would remove the completely unrealistic need to move a spy for 20 years in order to use him. Now if other units were exempted from the unrealistic movement allowances, the game might actually have something going for it.

Venger · February 4, 2000, 21:42

Another option - sabotage nuke. Your spy can sabotage a nuclear unit. This nuclear unit can move, etc., but when used to attack, does not detonate.

subspace · February 7, 2000, 01:05

I think the espionage system in Seven Kingdoms 2 is excellent, especially the assasination feature and the Fort-Taking-Over feature. The spy first enters the fort, he "sleeps" for a while, and after he gains enough followers, he assasinate the fort's general and declare the fort to be under the rule of his true kingdom.
Way excellent man !!!!

SWPIGWANG · February 9, 2000, 23:07

SPYs gets more power and we get more micro now thats good

Harel · February 19, 2000, 05:54

Bump...

DarkCloud · November 25, 2000, 19:40

The 'assassinate' nations leader should be implemented but only for computer civs; if it is implemented for Human civs then who would lead?

If you were in alliance with another empire; you should be able to seize half of his empire if you assassinate the leader.

Tical_2000 · November 25, 2000, 22:59

Does anyone stop to think about how the AI would react to all this? It would take a smooth operator AI to know what option to use when sending Harel's SuperSpy into your cities. I think we need to stop ridiculously going into major details. By the way, don't you think you should also be able to select what kind of shoes your spy wears? (Nike cross trainers/workboots/all terrain boots?)

DarkCloud · November 26, 2000, 14:22

If we only implement half of the suggestions, it will be a good game; and less confusing to the AI.

Tiberius · November 28, 2000, 05:41

quote:

Originally posted by DarkCloud on 11-25-2000 06:40 PM
The 'assassinate' nations leader should be implemented but only for computer civs; if it is implemented for Human civs then who would lead?

Don't worry, DarkCloud, the spy won't assasinate you!

But seriously, don't take it so literally: maybe the spy drops a bomb in the senate, killing your ministers;
or think that you are the God/spirit of your civ and the spy kills the president;
or the spy makes public dirty affairs or your civ's leaders and in the scandal that follows the people revolt and demand a new goverment;
or the spy makes public photos with you and Monica Lewinsky *#$#@*

and you must resign!

Gosh, man, use your imagination!

Tiberius · November 28, 2000, 07:46

My 2 cents about spy operations:

1. Establish embassy
2. Investigate city
3. Steel secret documents (the spy would have a certain chance to steal documents; those documents could be geographic maps, military maps, technology, military unit design, embarrasing affairs, secret plans, secret alliances; maybe when stealing papers, a popup menu should appear asking what kind of papers do you want to steal or maybe the choice should be decided through a random chance, to avoid more micromanagement)
4. Steal: money(trade)/goods(production shields)/food
5. Destroy building
6. Assasinate nation leader(only in capitol, leading to chaos in the entire civ) / army general (lowering morale and combat strength for several turns) / governor (civil disorder for a few turns in that city)
7. Bribe unit
8. Sabotage/damage unit
9. Bribe city
10. Attack city (poison water, plant virus, pollute, nuke city). (The word "attack" is not the best here, maybe you find something better)
11. sabotage nuke (good idea Venger)
12. steal nuke

I think these are enough. More options would be too much.

Sirotnikov · November 28, 2000, 08:42

quote:

Originally posted by Sikander on 02-02-2000 12:16 AM
I would divide the diplomat / spy unit into two units, one a special operations unit, like the U.S. Special Forces, Russian Spetsnats, or British SAS. The other spying operations would be accessed through an intelligence window, like in MOO II. There is no reason why a spy needs to be represented on the map by a unit, which can somehow occupy a huge area.

I would devide it into 3 units:

1) Diplomat - political activities
2) Spy - special operations unit with an emphasis on being descrete and lesser chances of success.
3) Commando - spec ops. unit with an emphasis on success and agressive operations. (I posted an elaborated thread on this in may, dig up)

Tical_2000 · November 28, 2000, 17:30

Originally posted by Tiberius on 11-28-2000 04:41 AM
Don't worry, DarkCloud, the spy won't assasinate you!

But seriously, don't take it so literally: maybe the spy drops a bomb in the senate, killing your ministers;
or think that you are the God/spirit of your civ and the spy kills the president;
or the spy makes public dirty affairs or your civ's leaders and in the scandal that follows the people revolt and demand a new goverment;
or the spy makes public photos with you and Monica Lewinsky *#$#@*

and you must resign!

Gosh, man, use your imagination!

Tiberius: you're an idiot.

Tiberius · November 29, 2000, 02:01

quote:

Originally posted by Tical_2000 on 11-28-2000 04:30 PM
Tiberius: you're an idiot.

Thanks Tical, but I'm not going to react to this. You see, maybe I'm not a genius, but at least I have common sense.

I made a joke. If you didn't like it, sorry. I apologize to everybody who didn't like it or feel offended.

rremus · November 30, 2000, 04:31

If another nation has establishes an embassy with you, then you could use money to get inteligence from corrupted diplomats. Of course, unless the other civ is not a Democracy, imune to bribery (is there such thing!?). If is a Democracy, then you could use force.

Kidnap diplomat's children and persuade him to give you the secret of Nukes...

Deathwalker · November 30, 2000, 07:49

I really like soime of your ideas, but some of them are repeats.

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I have walked since the dawn of time and were ever I walk, death is sure to follow

Yog-Sothoth · November 30, 2000, 12:08

I think there should be a city size limit when it comes to bribing a city. Don't seem likely that a spy should be able to bribe a city with several million inhabitants. It should at least be more difficult the bigger the city is.

Tical_2000 · November 30, 2000, 17:34

quote:

Originally posted by rremus on 11-30-2000 03:31 AM
If is a Democracy, then you could use force.

Kidnap diplomat's children and persuade him to give you the secret of Nukes...

You want government-sponsored child kidnappings??!! What a thoroughly stupid idea!!! You are quite demented, my friend...

hHydro · December 1, 2000, 19:10

quote:

Originally posted by Yog-Sothoth on 11-30-2000 11:08 AM
I think there should be a city size limit when it comes to bribing a city. Don't seem likely that a spy should be able to bribe a city with several million inhabitants. It should at least be more difficult the bigger the city is.

Isn't that why it costs a lot more to bribe a big city with defenders than a small city without? Still I agree that it should be slightly more difficult than it was or there should be a cap either by city size or by happiness. Converting a small village maybe.. but I can't imagine someone waltzing up to our Mayor tomorrow and somehow giving him enough money to convince Vancouver join the USA... =)

I'm sure that's what they intended when they made democracies immune to bribery, but I don't think it's the right decision. Large cities under a monarchy or communism aren't going to be swayed by a little cash either.