MOO3 Project Update

Stormhound · February 12, 2002, 10:18

Here's a note from Alan (I'd have posted it yesterday, but Apolyton decided it didn't feel like dealing with me):
===============================
Dear MOO3 Enthusiasts,

Many of you have been waiting anxiously for a big update on this project. I am now imparting to you 'the word.' Please, be seated.

It has been our philosophy to share with you all of the ins and outs of the game making process, and this chapter is a crucial part of that story. We've done a great deal more than most companies would, here 'in the open' sharing the almost-daily swings and roundabouts we encounter in actually bringing a computer game to market. We think it's a fascinating process and one worthy of sharing with you. For those who have been through this process before, you're probably not seeing a lot you didn't expect; for those who are new to the process of publishing game software, this is doubtless an eye-opening experience.

As you have probably surmised, playtesting has been underway for MOO3 and we've reached 'that point' in this project when it is time to review the early feedback and make course corrections based upon actual players' experiences. This is where the art of game design moves from theory to practice and the nature of the projects evolves from incubation to birth. We're in the 'pre-birthing' stage for MOO3 right now, so the decisions being made these days are far less academic and far more practical than hitherto. That is a natural, evolutionary step in the process for publishing a game, so please check your fears at the door. We at Quicksilver have been through this a lot of times, people. Everything's fine and we're going about things the right way. (That's how Quicksilver has survived and prospered for nearly 20 years; we know 'how things work.')

Now, let me speak to you as a game designer. Previously, we really couldn't "see" the game because until all the pieces were assembled, you couldn't see how they work in unison; hence, you're really not seeing the game. Well, with darn near everything in and running, the game is under constant review and we're learning a lot about it. I'm more than a little relieved that my instincts are being borne out by early playtesting feedback; to wit, there's simply too much there - MOO3 needs more focus.

Okay, I consider that to be good news. This is what being a good designer is all about. Any designer can add. Tossing in the kitchen sink takes a lot of work, but it's relatively easy. What makes a designer good is the ability to cut, squeeze, trim, amalgamate, abstract, adapt, and hit a deadline with a fun game. That's where your MOO3 Design Team is at these days. It is time to take in some sail (and no game has ever had this much sail, I assure you!) and tack into the wind to reach the finish line.

So, we're taking a fresh look at the game now that we've seen it in motion. It's time to remove some of the excesses and distractions, abstract some of the more obscure systems in the game, amalgamate the feedback suggestions into the game's inner workings, and generally tighten the focus of MOO3. The designers, engineers, artists and managers are all doing exactly what we should be doing, reassessing things based upon feedback and making adjustments accordingly; at the end of the day, we need a fun, focused game (which is what you want). There's no conspiracy here; no mandate from the publisher to 'make these changes or else.' This is just the normal execution of sound game design and development principles. Again, we're at that stage in the process and, if you haven't been on a project like this before, it might seem scary or maddening. Well, it is a bit, but it's also healthy, and we are going to make sure that MOO3 is born healthy.

No doubt you're wondering what, specifically, is going to be changed. That's hard to say. This is an evolutionary process that we will be going through for some time now: getting feedback, adjusting; getting more feedback, adjust some more; and so on. So, there will be constant tinkering with 'the little things.' There are a couple of 'big' things, though.

One important change that has been made is that internal, domestic 'factions' will become abstracted. Players will not have to directly deal with all of the Byzantine machinations of internal power structures originally designed into the game (which saves a lot of 'speeches' and knobs the game requested players to dink with). Instead, Stormhound has cleverly amalgamated these domestic factions into a smoother, more abstract system. As it stands now, most of the effects of domestic support and dissent have been streamlined into fewer, more intuitive places in the game. THAT is the art of great game design, my friends.

The other important change is the streamlining of IFPs and the way they integrate into 'the plan' for each turn. Previously, you received 'the plan' and spent IFPs to change it. In effect, 'undoing' things. Now the way it works is that you DO stuff, and whatever you don't dink with simply 'takes care of itself' like it always did. This has a much more intuitive feel when issuing orders each turn. Also, the IFPs were a little tight-fitting. We've loosened up the 'straight jacket' aspect and put some carrots and sticks in the pockets. That is, you get your 'ration' every turn, and can spend them or not (it's up to you). You can even deficit spend (up to about three or four times your per turn ration). But - if you're running a surplus, you get carrots (or if you're running a debt, sticks) for such things as events, unrest, currency strength, government support and various other 'intangibles.' So, now, how you play your IFPs is further part of your game strategy without adding any more complexity to the player experience. If you max out your IFP deficit, expect some bad karma; keep it running in surplus and we'll toss a little good karma your way.

This is exactly the sort of thing that will be keeping the MOO3 Design Team busy in the days ahead. Judging things 'too intricate,' or 'not fun enough' and making adjustments so that the best parts of every idea survive to keep the player surrounded by that elusive 5th 'X,' the true eXperience of making those tough decisions while steering an interstellar civilization through very treacherous times to a leadership role in the Orion Sector. I thought I would take this opportunity to tell you where things are and, more importantly, where they're going (and why). We'll be keeping you in the loop as best we're able and hope you'll stay with us for the ride; things are picking up speed now and it's getting exciting!

Alan Emrich, MOO3 designer
Quicksilver Software, Inc.
The value of a good thing is to have done it.

Garth Vader · February 12, 2002, 11:03

Sweet

Sammual · February 12, 2002, 12:55

Sounds good.

Sammual

TresXF · February 12, 2002, 13:13

good news!
i'm looking forward to the strategy hammer 2002

vmxa1 · February 12, 2002, 16:25

It just occured to me that I may see this first at E3, as I am betting it will not be in the stores before then. Either way I am ready.

Master Marcus · February 13, 2002, 03:12

I like the slight change about IFPs spending and how this affects the karma, since I've already hoped for a similar approach like a surplus we can accumulate over the turns in order to use for specific tasks like Events, battles,etc... instead of a rigid 8-9 IFPs per turn. Bravo.

We must keep in mind though the importance of the macro side brought by the IFP system and that must be kept, otherwise the game will be unplayable on most PCs ( hint hint: micromanaging a Civ III game w huge map+16 civs settings ...)

Deathwalker · February 13, 2002, 05:13

Good News

loinburger · February 13, 2002, 11:35

Does this mean that ya'll are still on schedule for a May release?

Zealot · February 13, 2002, 11:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Stormhound, quoting Alan Emrich
One important change that has been made is that internal, domestic 'factions' will become abstracted. Players will not have to directly deal with all of the Byzantine machinations of internal power structures originally designed into the game (which saves a lot of 'speeches' and knobs the game requested players to dink with). Instead, Stormhound has cleverly amalgamated these domestic factions into a smoother, more abstract system. As it stands now, most of the effects of domestic support and dissent have been streamlined into fewer, more intuitive places in the game. THAT is the art of great game design, my friends.

Ok, Stormie, we want details!

What's the domestic factions system, and how do they work?

Edit: I just noticed this one: Got tired of Minnesota, SH?

Stormhound · February 13, 2002, 11:55

Loinburger: I really don't know. Right now, I'm up to my eyeballs in making changes, and I really have no better an estimate than I had before (Q2).

Stormhound · February 13, 2002, 12:05

The domestic factions system is now defunct, so it doesn't work at all.

There used to be different "power blocks" (such as the Military, Bureaucracy, Upper Class) who had to be kept happy in sufficient numbers to keep your government viable. That's all been abstracted into one value now, rather than 15.

There are a few more details (but not many) on the Delphi board about the old system, if you really want to dig them up. I can't go into details on the new system at this point, but basically if you do enough things that annoy your people, things will happen that you'd really rather not.

Zealot · February 13, 2002, 12:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Stormhound
I can't go into details on the new system at this point, but basically if you do enough things that annoy your people, things will happen that you'd really rather not.

It's too bad that you guys at QS entered in the can't go into details at this point phase.

There are so many questions...

Anyway, if you get around Newark, tell the portuguese community I said "hi"!

Stormhound · February 13, 2002, 12:33

Sorry, but anything that's been changed can't be talked about until it's been re-finalized and cleared for discussion. Otherwise, I might end up giving you false information, and I'd really rather not do that if I can help it (and I don't have time to go back to review everything I've said to correct it).

Anything that hasn't been changed is still okay to talk about.

Sarxis · February 14, 2002, 02:37

You people should run for "Leader of the Free World"!!

Thanx for the update!

Stormhound · February 14, 2002, 12:48

What, and give up having any time to play (and design) computer games? Are you nuts?

(And how could I possibly get tired of Minnesota? I've never been there in my life.)

Zealot · February 14, 2002, 14:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Stormhound
(And how could I possibly get tired of Minnesota? I've never been there in my life.)

Uh, I thought you were in Minnesota before moving to NJ!

Where were you before then?

Stormhound · February 14, 2002, 14:35

Missouri. Not too bad, you were only two states too far north.

And I'm now in NJ to be with the woman I love. The things we do for women...

Docfeelgood · February 14, 2002, 14:50

Anyway to put that in english so us third grade drop outs can understand what the hell was just printed?

Zealot · February 14, 2002, 15:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Docfeelgood
Anyway to put that in english so us third grade drop outs can understand what the hell was just printed?

In ingrish: MUU 3 r0x!

Zealot · February 14, 2002, 15:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Stormhound
Missouri. Not too bad, you were only two states too far north.

I knew it! I knew it started with 'Mi', followed by double letters!

Quote:

Originally posted by Stormhound
And I'm now in NJ to be with the woman I love. The things we do for women...

The things game designers can do with the money they must be earning...

Ah well, I'm sure you deserve it!

child of Thor · February 15, 2002, 18:49

I've followed stuff here and on the delphi boards and associated sites and i'm pre-pledging my purchase of Moo3 when it comes out,that's before i read any reviews or 'let the dust settle' on its release.Why? well i can afford it and Its the way Quicksilver as a company(and Stormhound

)have conducted themselves since the begining.Having been burnt by Activision and the 'Call to Power' games(which are much better games now due to loyal fans), and recently the Civ3 thing, i was beginning to feel that the market trend was to shaft your customers and take their money

Thank you Quicksilver and Stormhound i'm sure your company will be around for a long-time

pchang · February 15, 2002, 19:09

Upon closer inspection it turns out that life as a game designer is not nearly as lucrative as I thought it might be (especially when you consider the hours you have to put in).

I too, will be buying a copy when it comes out. Just don't do one of those limited edition designer box type of things. I won't fall for that one twice.

Stormhound · February 16, 2002, 09:32

To answer several in one...

Actually, I took a 1/3 pay cut to become a designer from my previous career as a mainframe programmer. And I wasn't earning east/west-coast bucks before that cut. I'm not exactly poverty level either, but if money was the issue I'd still be programming. Games are in my blood. Just ask the woman who just got umpteen boxes of gaming stuff dumped in her house.

QS has been around almost 20 years, and yes, I imagine it'll be around a while longer. At least I certainly hope so.

The "limited edition" thing is entirely an Infogrames decision, and no, I didn't buy Civ3 LE. I rarely buy anything LE. (And yes, I had to buy a copy to play it, no freebie.)

paulmagusnet · February 17, 2002, 14:30

Good Job. I like very much what you say has been doon for IFPs. (this is not a new concept by the way).

I tried to register to be a beta tester but the function would not work on the site.

One thing missing from most 4&5x games is a real difference in how political systems evolve and operate. Effectively, a democracy and a dictatorship function the same way in CIVs, with just a few value modifications.

Communitarian style systems evolve from a particular philosopy and market/individualist systems from an entirely different line. A serious flaw in CIVIII tech advancement is that there are so many speedbump and orphan technologies. Philosophy is a process that opens or closes many doors, not a historical placemark.

What about external politics? Can you become part of/form a Federation(UN style), be elected to meaningful postions and vote on policy; or be absorbed/absorb by a empire and take part in its conflicts? (cf Empire of the Fading Suns).

I have a very 'Sim City' orientation and I hate it when the game ends, I mean, all that work and so little to show for it. To some extent this is addressed by the 'Hall of Fame' idea, which needs expansion to include more meaningful data and commentary about what you accomplished, but this is still kind a shadow reward. I like the idea of a continuous universe with always someting new to do or learn or improve. It would be nice to have some kind of legacy that can persist from game to game that grows or changes over time.

Again, it is so very nice to see that QS is working to make a real advance in the Moo3 gaming experience. Those who are disapointed in CIVIII have a simple and effective solution: return the product for a refund. I would but since I can only get pirated copies in Russia, that pleasure is denied me. Although I critisize CIII exensively, its only becaue I care about it and expected more from a 21st century 3rd generation product. There is worse out there, just buy or borrow a copy of Merchant Prince II and you will appreciate how, dispite its many flaws, much CIII does do well.

How is the Moo3 tech tree, or hopefully tech forest. I understand you have general and applied technology (cf EFP), how about production experience and depth of knowledge. Knowing is not the same as doing, and the must be serious depth in production and quality allowed. This brings about real strategic choices about investment, ie, its real bad when you're the best buggy whip maker and suddenly everyone is moving to horseless carriages.

Anyway, thanks again for your effort. I can't wait for the end product.

For those who can't wait, try rails accross america or that new age of trade game.

LordEd · February 18, 2002, 21:20

Alpha Centauri allowed you to continue playing after the game had been won. This allowed those of us who are 'builders' to put every improvement in every city and max out the terraforming of each and every tile... If this is the way you wish to play, then hopefully the same option could be given in MOO3.

Conversely, if you are about to finish the game, really screw up your empire and cause a civil war! That should provide additional playing time.

Master Marcus · February 18, 2002, 22:08

Stromhound, LordEd has a point here: is it possible to win a MoO3's game when facing a civil war tearing apart your great empire at the end? Or will the civil war coding be more active by mid-game ?

Stormhound · February 19, 2002, 12:04

Yes, it would be possible to win under those conditions...assuming you hadn't disabled victory conditions that don't depend upon your empire's size. There's at least one victory condition which could, in theory, be completed by an empire with only a single planet.

Zealot · February 19, 2002, 12:41

OCC is in MOO3! Whoohoo!

moomin · February 20, 2002, 06:16

OCC was in Moo2 as well.

Zealot · February 20, 2002, 07:14

Quote:

Originally posted by moominparatrooper
OCC was in Moo2 as well.

Err... well, if you started with Average tech, with just one opponent, in a huge galaxy, it might be possible for you to get most of the technology to build some ships and conquer Antares.
But it's still a really long shot, because the AI could expand fast enough to win by the coucil - he votes for himself, and since you will have a puny number of votes, you will certainly lose.

So I don't know if we can really consider OCC in MOO2.

BTW, do you know anyone who has been successful in MOO2 with OCC?