State of Relations

TechWins · February 12, 2002, 21:18

I've realized over the past few days that the state of relations between Civs has been made significantly worse than that of Civ2. Why do I say that? Well, because in Civ3 there are only two state of relations between a Civ - peace and war. Now peace does have variants along with it, that alters the relation of just peace, such as how you can be at peace with a Civ and they can be either annoyed, cautious, happy, etc... I didn't mention alliance as a state of relation because in Civ3 it is used as a variant with peace. In war, there are not any variants. Whereas with Civ2 you could be at peace with a Civ and they could feel x with you, you could be at war with a Civ and they could feel x with you, you could be in an alliance with a Civ and they could feel x with you, you could simply not be at terms with a Civ and they could feel x with you, etc... Now I ask this, why would you go with the current system of Civ3? The only reason that comes to mind is that Firaxis wanted to make Civ3 less complicated but still just as strategic and fun. That is fine, but I don't think you can sacfrice complexity and retain all of the strategy. In not retaining all of the strategy you ultimately take away fun as well. It's probably too late for Firaxis to go back on this decision, in fact I know it is (possibly in an expansion, though), but I'm really dissapoint as to how Firaxis handled the state of relations with Civs. Not to mention, Firaxis took away the factor of reputation from the game. I can understand this in MP terms, but I don't see any MP games being played, at least not by Civ3 customers. So again, I ask why?

BtW, I'm not saying Diplomacy, for Civ3, in it's entirity is worse than Civ2, yet, that just the state of relations between Civs in Civ2 is far superior than that of Civ3.

Terser · February 12, 2002, 21:38

I miss cease fires. I know they would probably be even more powerful/exploitable in CivIII than in CivII (what with the strategic and luxury resources and all). But I think that the AI could be (re)designed so as to make good tactical use of CFs.

Sorta low on my list of priorities...but it's there...

Kilroy_Alpha · February 13, 2002, 01:56

Cease-fires would have been nice, if nothing else then to allow you to secure resources from a civ before actually making peace. With the system how it is now, it's really difficult to get resources from a civ sometimes because you have to wait twenty turns and by then the AI thinks it's hot **** again

Does anyone else agree with me that the ability to get resources from a civ as a requirement for peace is a Very Important Thing? I want this more than stacked movement.

Capt Dizle · February 13, 2002, 02:18

Relations have many states and some exist in the game and also outside as well. All linked, joined, inextricable.

Since the release of the alpha version of Civ3 we have seen relations steadily worsen between Smolderaxis and its fans. Not yet at the state of war, Smolderaxis's lack of culture has caused many Civiholics to flip to join other gaming communities. Numerous fan boys have been caught in pockets of the rebellion and have simply disappeared into that same black void where Civ military units go when cities flip over.

Smolderaxis choirboy workers have been ambushed and sold into slavery. The mediocre conscript designers and programmers, spawned by forced labor and suffering from Slid McMalodorous's cruel oppression are being tarred and feathered in his place. For Slid has not the nerve to face the mob. Teams of armed trolls are constantly violating the ever-shrinking Smolderaxis cultural borders. The corruption in the game must have seeped into its design from the halls of InfoMordor where the Smolderaxian slaves labor, from the depths in which the shadows lie and from whence the reek rises ever and ever.

Velociryx, formally one of the most ardent Civ personalities has retreated to his home state of South Carolina and is preparing to loose a volley at Fort Smolderaxis in the form of Velocigames, a new gaming endeavor dedicated to do what Slid has lost the honor to do, risk his time, reputation, and money to create a serious game for hardcore gamers.

While Slid and company pander lightweight offerings like the aborted dino fiasco and, gag us, simgolf, the faithful are flocking in droves to other games.

Proving their ineptitude in things diplomatic, Smolderaxis has stuck its head in a sand trap and has adopted Scarlet O'Hara's creed..."I will think about it tomorrow". Whilst they tarry Rebel General Brian "the terminator" Reynolds is preparing a BIG HUGE GAME.

TechWins notes that the concept of reputation has been removed from Civ3. It is clear that the whole reputation thing makes Slid nervous these days. You can only get by on talent for so long, over the long haul character will tell. Slid has proven himself the equivalent of a gaming General McClellan, brilliant and adept at training an army and maneuvering and handling skirmishes in style. But, faced with the first real challenge in his career, Slid McMalodorous has left the front lines and is back hobnobbing with the other REMF and telling his paranoid stories of how the whole world, his publisher, and his staff is against him.

So, we should not bother that cease-fires are not in Civ3 game play. Civ3 Diplomacy has escaped your hard drive and is racing through Cisco routers and across WAN links and blasting through firewalls in order to bring a simple serial binary stream of raw bits that can only interface with our neural nets in one simple revelation. Slid is growing up and finding that he is not going to be a fireman, a policeman, nor an Enron executive.

He is gravitating to a permanent host address on the Derek Smart subnet, home of the never-do-wells, the has-beens, the cowardly lions of interactive activities, and the malignant egos of game gods lost in the habit of eternally peering in their toilet bowls, admiring their handiwork and the aroma of their own labor.

He has grown up and is revealed! He is the Lidless, Undying Red Eye, searching, searching ever for that which was lost, the One Ring. He needs it, he wants it, so that he can slip it on and become invisible and therefore mask his shame at the choices he has made.

Meanwhile, our brave lads struggle up the winding stair in their seemingly hopeless quest, Yin and Lib, without hope but determined to proudly press on to reach their goal. To shove the One Ring up the vile Crack of Doom.

War weary and lacking strategic resources on their three-tile island, lacking the technology to cross sea or oceans squares, the rebels remain defiant. The emperor has no clothes. The emperor has no clothes. Only twenty-nine turns to ceremonial burial. Up Yin, Up Lib, for we trolls are quarrying the stone for the Temple of Smolderaxis wherein the cairn of Slid McMalodorous is being readied.

We strive to relate to El Slid. We yearn for his magic touch. Let the Red Eye wander this way so that he may feast upon the meal we have prepared for him. Let us express the State of Relations that he hath wrought amongst the faithful.

Skanky Burns · February 13, 2002, 06:34

It has cease-fires!!

When an AI asks for peace, demand whatever you want from them and a gold per turn payment. Then for 20 turns you will be in a cease-fire arrangement.
Feel like going back to war after the cease-fire?? Just dont accept their offer for peace after 20 turns.
Feel like continuing peace after the cease-fire?? Just accept their offer for peace after 20 turns.

Zachriel · February 13, 2002, 18:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Skanky Burns
It has cease-fires!!

That is certainly correct.

You can cancel or renegotiate any deal, including peace treaties, after 20 turns. I have often received resources, luxuries and entire cities for deigning to renew a peace treaty.

Velociryx · February 13, 2002, 18:38

JT, that was...awesome!

Thank you...and I really needed a pick-me-up today...gonna head home here in about thirty minutes to inspect the cannon and such....we're a tiny dot, but we're |---| <---that close to officially incorporating and the ten coders are already working like blacksmiths, hammering our design into it's earliest shape.

We shall see....

-=Vel=-

Libertarian · February 13, 2002, 19:10

Wow. What fine expository skills, JimmyTrick! The patch was good, but there is much left to do. I promise you that I shall not rest until the Domestic Nag is put to sleep.

Skanky Burns · February 13, 2002, 20:06

[Evil Robot Mode]
Must..... killl...... domestic........ Nag.......
Exterminate!!
Exterminate!!!!
[/Evil Robot Mode]

Terser · February 13, 2002, 22:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Skanky Burns
It has cease-fires!!

When an AI asks for peace, demand whatever you want from them and a gold per turn payment. Then for 20 turns you will be in a cease-fire arrangement.
Feel like going back to war after the cease-fire?? Just dont accept their offer for peace after 20 turns.
Feel like continuing peace after the cease-fire?? Just accept their offer for peace after 20 turns.

Uhm...not quite. Cease fires have one critical difference: during CF you can move about freely on the enemy's territory and vice versa. This (as Kilroy_Alpha alludes to) would allow you to actually seize valuable resources from your enemies during a lull in the fighting as well as weaken his or her cities by occupying city radius squares. Also, violating a CF at any point would hopefully not cause the same diplomatic repercussions as breaking a peace treaty.

Cease fires would open the door for a wealth of subtle political and military stratgies and need to be reintroduced, IMHO.

MOHonor · February 13, 2002, 22:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Skanky Burns
[Evil Robot Mode]
Must..... killl...... domestic........ Nag.......
Exterminate!!
Exterminate!!!!
[/Evil Robot Mode]

The birth of the next big whine! Congrats! Can't wait to skim over your posts till the next patch.

Zachriel · February 13, 2002, 22:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Terser
This (as Kilroy_Alpha alludes to) would allow you to actually seize valuable resources from your enemies during a lull in the fighting

How would you seize resources if they are within his cultural boundaries? Pillaging is an act of war.

Terser · February 13, 2002, 23:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Zachriel

How would you seize resources if they are within his cultural boundaries? Pillaging is an act of war.

During a cease fire the military units of the two civs would still be considered hostile despite the fact that they could move about freely in each other's territory. By placing a military unit in a resource square you would in effect be seizing it. You would not gain control of it, per se--however, your opponent would lose access to it as well. If this resource were essential to his war machine or maintaining the happiness of his populace this would either force him or her to negotiate a more permenant peace treaty or resume hostilities in an effort to reclaim the resource(s).

Zachriel · February 13, 2002, 23:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Terser
During a cease fire the military units of the two civs would still be considered hostile despite the fact that they could move about freely in each other's territory. By placing a military unit in a resource square you would in effect be seizing it. You would not gain control of it, per se--however, your opponent would lose access to it as well. If this resource were essential to his war machine or maintaining the happiness of his populace this would either force him or her to negotiate a more permenant peace treaty or resume hostilities in an effort to reclaim the resource(s).

Historically, cease-fires include provisions for the freezing of armies in place. If one party crosses the battle line, then the cease-fire is, by definition, over. In any case, I don't think I would make a cease-fire with a party that pillages my territory and steals my resources.

Terser · February 14, 2002, 00:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Zachriel

Historically, cease-fires include provisions for the freezing of armies in place. If one party crosses the battle line, then the cease-fire is, by definition, over. In any case, I don't think I would make a cease-fire with a party that pillages my territory and steals my resources.

I envision something like we had in CivII--or something like the U.S. has in place in Iraq right now. We are not at war with Iraq right now, but we are not truly at peace, either. No fly zones, U.N. protected Kurdish zones, U.N. weapons inspectors, and strict U.S./U.N. monitoring of the Iraqi oil program all closely mirror what a cease fire in CivIII might simulate.

Imagine you find yourself unable (or for some reason unwilling) to prosecute a war to the bloody end. At the same time, you want to essentially subjugate the opposing civ and cripple their ability to wage war against you in the future. A cease fire as I described above would provide the opportunity to do so while at the same time giving you the option to escalate hostilities again without necessarily being a peace breaker.

Now imagine the shoe is on the other foot. Suppose that it is your civ that is on the ropes and your opponent offers a cease fire. This comes during the modern era and you've already spent 15+ hours on a game--wouldn't you accept? Yes, the enemy might take your resources and surround your cities. But in the meantime, you can be negotiating a multi-part military alliance against him. Or, perhaps a rival civilization simply sees an opening and attacks your opponent on their own initiative. The point is, a cease fire would buy you many turns of time to manuever militarily and diplomatically. Those turns could make all the difference in the world, especially when we get multiplayer.

Libertarian · February 14, 2002, 01:01

Quote:

The birth of the next big whine! Congrats! Can't wait to skim over your posts till the next patch.

Yep, that's right. You just continue to sit back and contribute nothing. We'll take care of making sure the game gets better. After all, we don't expect leaders from among your ranks.

notyoueither · February 14, 2002, 03:08

Lib, Lib, Lib. Come on.

How much influence do you think you have had while residing on the ignore lists of most of the Firaxians (I presume).

The truth is that reasonable people exist on both sides of the divide. I think that they may have been listened to. But to claim the gains of each patch as your own? Come on.

The fact is that something like group movement was being clamoured for by very many people.

OTOH, I think it is far more likely that most of the good ideas that were adopted from outside sources were probably suggested on civfanatics. I'm sorry to say it, but I think it is true.

OYAH (on yet another hand) if Poly becomes a less caustic environment for Firaxians, perhaps they will pay more attention here.

BTW, as I type this, there is a Civ3 commercial being played on CNN for at least the 3rd time in the last hour. How much attention do you think they really need to pay to the grognards when they are spending millions (?) on drawing in new players who have never heard of Civ, Civ2, CTP, CTP2 or SMAC?

Asbestos On!

Salve

John Paul Jones · February 14, 2002, 03:31

Nice post Jimmytrick

luv dat dry wit

&

Quote:

Originally posted by TechWins
....Not to mention, Firaxis took away the factor of reputation from the game....

I think reputation is still a factor in the game...it's just another one of those variables they've made invisible or vague to the player. I don't renege on deals much so I've never seen the dialogue the AI might present you with if you were to double-cross them a lot, anyone ?

EDIT: Oh wow - I've finally been upgraded to "Prince" , not as scary or intimidating as "Warlord" though

Skanky Burns · February 14, 2002, 05:33

Quote:

Originally posted by MOHonor

The birth of the next big whine! Congrats! Can't wait to skim over your posts till the next patch.

Here is the definition of humor.
Even you might notice that it differs from the definition of whining significantly.

Skanky Burns · February 14, 2002, 05:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Kilroy_Alpha
Does anyone else agree with me that the ability to get resources from a civ as a requirement for peace is a Very Important Thing?

Sorry, missed this bit before.

Yeah, it would be nice to be able to demand resources during the 'cease-fire' as part of the peace deal. However if I go to war with another civ who has a resource I need, and are in a position to beat them into submission, I will have already gone straight for their resource supply already and have secured it before going into a temporary peace.
Well, thats normally the plan anyway

Finally, there is still a form of cease-fire even if it is different to Civ 2 - but most things in Civ 3 are different.

Libertarian · February 14, 2002, 07:14

Quote:

The fact is that something like group movement was being clamoured for by very many people.

The fact is that I used the word "we".

Zachriel · February 14, 2002, 08:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Terser
I envision something like we had in CivII--or something like the U.S. has in place in Iraq right now.

There are specific lines of demarcation involved in Iraq. But I do see what you are getting at. It might make for good game play and I suppose there might be some historical justification.

John Paul Jones · February 15, 2002, 05:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Skanky Burns
Yeah, it would be nice to be able to demand resources during the 'cease-fire' as part of the peace deal

You can, if you contact the AI at the end of those 20 turns before he contacts you (usually on the following turn) - it means keeping an eye on the active trades though to see how many turns are left - which is awkward I agree.

notyoueither · February 15, 2002, 05:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Libertarian
After all, we don't expect leaders from among your ranks.

My fault for assuming you were excluding a good number of the contributors to this forum.

My bad.

After all the fans contributed a good deal of suggestions for Firaxis. Right?

Salve

Libertarian · February 15, 2002, 05:27

Quote:

My fault for assuming you were excluding a good number of the contributors to this forum.

Well. See that you keep your wits about you in the future.

notyoueither · February 15, 2002, 05:34

Holy Fr*ck, do you ever get up early. Uuuuggggg!

Must be something in that Southern air.

Salve