Planes can't sink ships, DEAL WITH IT

[King of Rasslin]

Just think about it... It takes a long time for ships to go around the world but air can rebase in 1 turn. Losing a ship to a few planes means you have to make another one and spend 20 turns sending it back.

If anything, ships need to be faster. I can't see why people want to make a lot of air units and ignore naval units. Air should be able to weaken ships but no way should they be able to destroy them.

In Civ 2, the ship could fight back. Now, they can't. Its easy, free damage to the ship reducing it to 1 hp. The only reason people complain about this is that they don't make any ships at all. It's about game balance, duh.

[candidgamera]

Originally posted by kimmygibler
The game isn't supposed to mimic what really happens in real life war. The rules are you can't sink ships. While this should be included in the editor, you may as well accept the basic rules as they are.

Sure I have to live with what is, but I don't have to like it. And sure the game can't emulate reality perfectly, but am not persuaded that it couldn't do a better job with the basic structure it has.

[candidgamera]

KOR:

I'd agree that ships should be faster - the voyages they make now are like starship voyages. Not a lot faster just some.

[Willem]

Originally posted by roalan
For ships? perhaps if each land unit represents an army then each sip may reprsent a task force? Planes buy themselves do not wipe out Task Forces,ex.for Midways CVA's. So just assume that if a ship has 4 HP and three are lost it equals 3 of 4 ships in the TF.

That's exactly the point of the current rule, a ship unit represents a group, not an individual Battleship, for instance. And just like the Japanese weren't able to destroy the entire US Pacific fleet at Pearl Harbour, so in the game a bomber can't destroy a ship.

[notyoueither]

Group of ships. Right. OK.

So how do they repair from 1HP left (ie build more) when they are cut off from Oil? I'm sorry, I can grant that maybe DDs and transports are groups, but not capital ships.

OK, now I am being pedantic, but the air-sea combat system is an irritant. Not a big one, but an irritant none the less. Maybe it's just me, but I guess it isn't.

But, to be honest, the reworking of the naval system is more complex than just allowing more finality between ships and aircraft.

1. Ship movement would have to be greatly increased.

2. Fighters on CVs would have to be allowed almost auto intercept abilities vs Air attacking ANY ship in its square. Even if the CV moved or the Fighters executed missions during their own turns.

3. Air meant for land based ops (level bombers) would have to be given a massive penalty in attacking shipping.

4. Along with 3, there would be naval air units that would be effective against ships, but have no more than fighter abilities on land.

5. etc, etc, In other words. The system would need to be rebuilt.

Maybe in the cards for Civ4. An XP if we are very lucky.

Salve

[notyoueither]

Alternatively.

Would it be difficult to include a few more options in the editor?

1. Unit Bombard allowed to destroy ships. Y/N

2. Unit Penalty when bombarding ships. Y/N.

2a. 2 could be replaced by: Unit Bombard value against ships. Value.

3. Ship has AA capabilty. Y/N

4. Ship has advanced AA capabilty. Y/N

5. 3 and 4 could be replaced by: Unit AA value. Value.

Everything else could prolly be looked after by modders, and we could all play the games we want to.

Salve

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Ballz1998
{RANT}
This is a game, the decision was made for game balance most likely. The planes at midway had naval support as well or did you skip the WW2 section in your history class. Some things need to be done for game balance and who gives a rats ass if its realistic or not. If you let the differences between Civ3 and Civ2 disuade you from liking the game. There is something wrong with your line of thought.
{/RANT}

Is it OK with you if we discuss what we would prefer to see in Civ?

If not, well then we'll just all go home and leave you to your lonely board.

BTW. In which history class did you learn that surface units ever saw each other during the battle of Midway?

And HTH did you get the impression that I do not like the game? Try reading more, you may be enlightened.

Salve

[Willem]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Group of ships. Right. OK.

So how do they repair from 1HP left (ie build more) when they are cut off from Oil? I'm sorry, I can grant that maybe DDs and transports are groups, but not capital ships.

Well there's the rub. Ships shouldn't be allowed to repair anywhere else but in port, and it should require a certain number of shields in order to do so. That's the main problem as I see it. not that they can't be sunk by planes.

[candidgamera]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Alternatively.

Would it be difficult to include a few more options in the editor?

1. Unit Bombard allowed to destroy ships. Y/N

2. Unit Penalty when bombarding ships. Y/N.

2a. 2 could be replaced by: Unit Bombard value against ships. Value.

3. Ship has AA capabilty. Y/N

4. Ship has advanced AA capabilty. Y/N

5. 3 and 4 could be replaced by: Unit AA value. Value.

Everything else could prolly be looked after by modders, and we could all play the games we want to.

Salve

Good simple methods to address for either opinion.

Modding could be used to bump up Ship moves can't it (must confess haven't got into editor yet)?

[Willem]

Originally posted by candidgamera

Modding could be used to bump up Ship moves can't it (must confess haven't got into editor yet)?

Then take a look for yourself.

[roalan]

Keep in mind if a ship represents a group of ships and some are sunk there is no repair in that sense it would be other ships joining the TF to replace the lost ships. I was in the Navy MANY years ago and believe me damage control in the US navy is top notch. Heavily damaged ships still fought on. The first thing you learn is damage control. So if you want to call it repairs fine,it woprks. Also refueling ships always acompany a TF, they do not need an oil source. Oilers do the trick.

[roalan]

Are you kidding. BB"s and CVA"s used to have their own fast task forces. Groups of the above were together in WW2 as Fast task forces.

[Spiffor]

Can someone explain me why some complain ships cannot be sunk by planes, but almost no one argues that they can't be sunk by ship / land bombing ?
The only cause I see is that they can't stand building ships... Tell me I'm wrong

[sachmo71]

Do you mean bombardment?

[steelehc]

roalan: I am in the Navy now, and yes, damage control is still top notch. However, damage control cannot replace sunk ships. And ships can be sunk by planes. If a, ironclad, for example, is atacked by a bomber, it represents a small group of ironclad warships, and at least one squadron of bombers. If you were to play this out, chances, are, the ironclad unit would be reduced to one hp. This means that the little ironclad fleet was nearly wiped out, with one ship remaining. Now, if the ironclad "rests" for a few turns, it returns to full strength. How is it that new ships are launched? In the middle of the ocean? Off of a foreign coast?

Ships should be able to repair themselves only in friendly (homeland) waters, and should be able to be destroyed by aircraft.

For example, take our ironclad fleet. Suppose there is only one ship left. Now that one ship is attacked by another squadron of bombers. Ships are not that hard to spot from the air, even at great distances, and if one bomber sees it, they all do. What prevents the bombers from sinking that one little ship?

Steele

[steelehc]

I should add that planes should also be able to be shot down by ships. Ironclads (maybe, given their turrets, and elevating guns...) and all later ships should have an AA capability, with the AEGIS cruiser being the best. Aircraft should also have resistances to being shot down, depending on their age. A Fighter would be immolated by an AEGIS, or even a BB or DD. However, a Stealth bomber would be able to get away with nearly anything.

Steele

[roalan]

Steelehc-read my message up a few notiches. I mentioned that if 3 of 4 HP are lost then it could be viewed as 3 orf 4 SHIPS lost. We have to deal with the fact that in Civ3 planes do not sink ships but the damage can be construed as ships lost in a TF Damage repair is replacing lost ships.

[steelehc]

I read and understood your post. My question, then, is why can an air attack sink three of four ships in a "task force," but not the fourth? What is so special about the last remaining ship that makes it invulnerable to air attack?

Steele

[Ironikinit]

steel, IIRC ships can only repair in port. Am I mistaken?

[steelehc]

I though that ships could repair anywhere, as long as they didn't move on a given turn. However, I haven't used any ships in the last couple weeks, I can't remember... Could someone please confirm or deny this for me?? In any case, whether or not they can repair anywhere or in port, they should be limited to repairing in port only.

Steele

PS:Ironikinit, thanks for bringing that up. I feel like a fool.

[roalan]

Just to live within the games peramaters.I think it a least sounds better then a single DD gets damage by a single AC. I think each ship reps. a TF or Desron or Fast BB etc. and hits are losses,seems to me better that way then single ships and planes. I do not believe an infantry man = 1 guy with a rifle?So why should a single ship or plane = 1 of each?
I do notice that all units seem to repair themselves after each turn even if they are in Tundra. There probably should be a base they shoukd return to for repairs i.e Civ2.

[steelehc]

I don't mean that a Destroyer unit is one DD, or an infantry unit is one guy with a rifle, or that a size nine city has a population of nine. What I meant was that if a Destroyer unit represents seven DDs, and it is attacked by bombers, and has one hp left, there is one ship remaining in the destroyer squadron. Why can this one ship not be sunk by another attack?

I agree with you on repairing units, they should be able to repair only in certain areas, like cities and forts maybe...

Steele

[player1]

Originally posted by steelehc
I don't mean that a Destroyer unit is one DD, or an infantry unit is one guy with a rifle, or that a size nine city has a population of nine. What I meant was that if a Destroyer unit represents seven DDs, and it is attacked by bombers, and has one hp left, there is one ship remaining in the destroyer squadron. Why can this one ship not be sunk by another attack?

I agree with you on repairing units, they should be able to repair only in certain areas, like cities and forts maybe...

Steele

For those who don't know:
In Civ3 ships can only be repaired in PORTS.

SO 1hp ship on open is sitting duck for your ships.

Or better,

Cruise missiles! (if in range)

[DrFell]

A completely unrealistic and nonsensical feature has been put into the game... DEAL WITH IT!!!

[roalan]

Not ponly that but if you noticed during WW2 the Japanese tended to depart the battle when they suffered losses,at sea that is. They never seem to return to finish the Job, in most cases not all.

[steelehc]

DrFell: It is an unrealistic feature, and I am trying to deal with it by suggesting ways to "fix" the problem.

roalan: The Japanese were not the only ones to use aircraft to attack ships. Their hesistancy to "finish off" Allied shipping was largely due to their lack of manufacturing capability, ie, limited ability to replace downed aircraft; and limited amounts of fuel. Besides, the simple fact that the Japanese did not do something does not mean it cannot be done.

Steele

[steelehc]

Player1: thanks much. I suppose that makes sense, but with this game, you never know.

EDIT: Can cruise missiles sink ships?

Steele

[DrFell]

Originally posted by steelehc
DrFell: It is an unrealistic feature, and I am trying to deal with it by suggesting ways to "fix" the problem.

Good my post was only an answer to the thread title anyway...

[roalan]

I can think of a few i.e Taffy 3 ,Pearl Harbor (there was not shortages in 1941) Coral Sea,Yamamoto countermanded Inouye's order and sent him back after the Americans but by then it was to late.There were no shortages then either.

[steelehc]

roalan: The Japanese had material shortages the entire war. They knew that if they lost a plane, it would be some time before they could replace it. You are forgetting that the Japanese were not the only ones to attack ships with planes.

DrFell: Sorry, I missed the point of your post.

Steele