1.17f Bug Reports - Page 9

ProfEclipse · February 23, 2002, 17:32

Willem,

Under a Democracy, one of the underlying principals is Freedom of Religion. There is no such thing as separation of church and state (at least not in the US Constitution).

And if cathedrals didn't generate any happiness/culture under a Democracy, why are there so many of them in the US? Or synagogues, or mosques?

However, that's beside the point.

Don't you think the Colosseum in Rome still generates a bit of culture? There have always been Cathedrals in the former Soviet Union. The reason they weren't taken down was that they were important to the culture and they helped keep the people happy.

Willem · February 23, 2002, 17:52

Quote:

Originally posted by ProfEclipse
Willem,

Under a Democracy, one of the underlying principals is Freedom of Religion. There is no such thing as separation of church and state (at least not in the US Constitution).

And if cathedrals didn't generate any happiness/culture under a Democracy, why are there so many of them in the US? Or synagogues, or mosques?

However, that's beside the point.

Don't you think the Colosseum in Rome still generates a bit of culture? There have always been Cathedrals in the former Soviet Union. The reason they weren't taken down was that they were important to the culture and they helped keep the people happy.

Compare today's Democracies with, say, the English monarchy 200 years ago. How many people go to church every Sunday now as opposed to then? Does the decline in church attendance imply that people today are less happy with their government than they were then? So why should a Cathedral always remain the symbol of a civ's level of happiness forever and forever?

With every change in government form, people have different expectations as to whether their leaders are doing a good job or not. And with the advent of Democracy, religious matters are of very little concern when it comes to establishing government policy. Do you think that if the US government were to suddenly start building Cathedrals all over the place, that the people would be any happier? Would that bring people flocking to church every Sunday? Or would making their elected representatives, and a having voice in the policy making do a better job? Shouldn't the game also reflect those changing aspirations?

ProfEclipse · February 23, 2002, 18:30

It's not the governments that build the Cathedrals. It's the people. We're talking about civilizations, not just governments. Governmental policies certainly have an impact on a civilization's growth, happiness, etc.. But people are still made happy when exercising their freedoms. In Civ, a Cathedral makes some people happy. This would be true no matter the form of government.

Willem · February 23, 2002, 21:12

Quote:

Originally posted by ProfEclipse
It's not the governments that build the Cathedrals. It's the people. We're talking about civilizations, not just governments. Governmental policies certainly have an impact on a civilization's growth, happiness, etc.. But people are still made happy when exercising their freedoms. In Civ, a Cathedral makes some people happy. This would be true no matter the form of government.

Well I'm getting tired of carrying on about this, and quite obviously you fail to see my point. So I guess I just won't ask you to play my mod when it's done. Fair enough? This is supposed to be a thread about bug reports after all.

ProfEclipse · February 24, 2002, 01:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Willem

Well I'm getting tired of carrying on about this, and quite obviously you fail to see my point. So I guess I just won't ask you to play my mod when it's done. Fair enough? This is supposed to be a thread about bug reports after all.

No, I see your point. I simply disagree. But you're right, this isn't the place to continue this discussion.

Oh, and don't count me out with regards to your mod. I may not agree with you on this point, but that doesn't necessarily mean I wouldn't enjoy playing out your ideas.

Cheers!

Willem · February 24, 2002, 01:32

Quote:

Originally posted by ProfEclipse

No, I see your point. I simply disagree. But you're right, this isn't the place to continue this discussion.

Oh, and don't count me out with regards to your mod. I may not agree with you on this point, but that doesn't necessarily mean I wouldn't enjoy playing out your ideas.

Cheers!

The bottom line is I can only work with the tools I have available to me right now. And this approach is the best I can come up with at the moment. Hopefully in the future I'll be able to multi select for various gov buildings, but right now I can't. So I have to make a compromise that at least has a certain logic to it.

MonsterMan · February 24, 2002, 07:23

I have found what I believe is a bug. The civilopedia talks about Draft Rate while the editor says Draft Limit. The latter is a better term, and I think you (Firaxis) should change it.
I've already changed the term in my civilopedia, if someone comes up with that solution.

Chronus · February 24, 2002, 09:45

Quote:

when it says contact, did it specify an embassy? it sounds more like if you have encountered both civs, even if you don't have an embassy with either of them that you can see if they are at war or not

The readme file, under "Changes v1.16", used the word "contact". It doesn't elaborate. I thought the term "contact" meant just that . . . contact . . . no embassy or any other additions.

Under 1.16, I could see the relationship lines between two civs when I had contact with both civs. Under 1.17, I MUST have an embassy with a civ to see whom it is at war with.

I really don't see this as a serious problem. In fact, I kind of like the idea of requiring an embassy to see the lines, except in cases of war. I think war relationship lines should always be visible as long as you have contact with both civs. I brought all this up mainly because there was no mention of any changes in the relationship lines in the readme file for 1.17.

Ribannah · February 24, 2002, 10:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Ribannah
(1) The Load/Save game window is not wide enough to see the full filenames
Edit: the scroll bar hides the last part of the filename (the date). Going to a subdirectory and coming back sometimes gives a better view with names filling two rows.
(2) The advisor keeps suggesting to build a Spearmen while I can make the better Bowmen at the same cost.
Edit: Now that I finally connected my empire to my only and faraway source of Iron, the advisor suggests ... "Shall we make a Bowman?"

(3) When the Golden Age is about to end, the city map shows no GA effect on the map but the GA effects are erroneously still shown on the city info below the city map and on the Domestic Advisor's city list
(4) There should be a warning by the Domestic Advisor when the Golden Age is about to end, instead of or in addition to the message when it has ended
(5) There should be a warning when a city is about to go into civil disorder and the option of going to the city screen to prevent this from happening
(6) When a city is about to grow in size, the new shields are already applied while income and food aren't. The extra shields shouldn't either IMHO. Btw most of the time the game applies the square with maximum number of shields, but not always
(7) With the new patch, none if the AI tribes is willing to pay gold per turn anymore, not even $1 when they would pay a lump sum of well over $20, and not even for all my possessions ("What may I trade?" "I don't think any such deal is possible")
(8) Scientific tribes don't get to hear anything about entering a new age
Edit: last time the Babylonians did though, maybe this was a 1.16 thing
(9) The name of the Iroquois war chief is Skenandoah ("white man's friend"), not Shenandoah ("daughter of the moon"). Come on! This is like having Washwoman leading the American army

(10) Despite being a Republic, my cities still celebrate "We love the King day"

(11) The number of turns needed in the tech tree is not visible for advances with short names
(12) Clearing a forest square doesn't always yield 10 shields. It makes no difference whether the square is being worked or not at the time
Edit: if this is as intended, we should get a message beforehand whether or not clearing a forest will yield shields, or it should show on the map
(13) If a forest square within the radius of several cities is cleared, IMHO the 10 shields should go to (a) the city working the square, if none (b) the largest city, in case of a tie (c) the oldest city. As it is it seems more or less random
(14) On occasion some (faraway) uncharted terrain suddenly registers as charted. This seems linked to Barbarian activity. If an AI unit enters the terrain, contact with the AI tribe becomes possible
(15) When a religeous tribe revolts to a new government upon making the discovery, cities may go into civil disorder despite sufficient happiness under both the old and the new government. Looks like the happiness during anarchy is counted by mistake

star mouse · February 24, 2002, 18:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Ribannah
(12) Clearing a forest square doesn't always yield 10 shields. It makes no difference whether the square is being worked or not at the time

Only natural forests yield shields. Natural forests are those that appear on the map at the beginning of the game. If the forest was planted, it doesn't yield shields when it is cleared.

watorrey · February 24, 2002, 19:45

Quote:

Originally posted by star mouse

Only natural forests yield shields. Natural forests are those that appear on the map at the beginning of the game. If the forest was planted, it doesn't yield shields when it is cleared.

It has been my experience that a planted forest will give shields. It only works once per square however. You cannot replant and then clear. Once per square is all you get.

Something i have not seen mentioned:

If an AI civ has too many cities, you cannot read the names of all the cities on the espionage menu. The box is too wide, not completely fitting on the screen and there is no scroll bar. Anyone else?

pauli · February 24, 2002, 20:13

Quote:

If an AI civ has too many cities, you cannot read the names of all the cities on the espionage menu. The box is too wide, not completely fitting on the screen and there is no scroll bar. Anyone else?

yep, i've seen that one too. quite irritating. the box will get wider and wider, but never taller.

one i just noticed: i'm talking to the egyptians (i had some troops in their territory exploring). i clicked through what my foreign advisor had to say, and something extremely odd came up:

Quote:

we know that cleopatra has betrayed our friends the greeks

thing is... she did nothing of the sort. they seemed to get along fine, right up to the point where i exterminated the greeks.

doesn't seem quite right. i'd say it's a frivolous bug, except that i strongly suspect such erronious logic is being used by the ai as well - which almost certainly screws up relations between civs.

also: when i move my last unit, the "this turn is over, press enter or spacebar" stuff comes up in the lower right window. however, the game slows to a crawl. incredibly sluggish response time. blinking text can't be *that* taxing on my machine if the rest of the game runs fine...

Master Marcus · February 24, 2002, 20:24

Beginning by mid- Middle ages in my actual first 1.17f game, I noticed a research completion bug I never saw before: whatever my economy settings ( 8-2-0, 7-3-0, 6-4-0,....., 2-8-0, etc...) I get each tech every 4-6 turns even if initially it takes more than 15, 20 turns. Sometimes after 4-5 turns, the required number of turns drops drastically from 10+ turns to a single turn ( within next turn ) and I get the "boosted" tech...the AI has the same bonus I've never saw pre-1.17. In fact I can't take the tech lead in the same Monarch conditions since the AI gets the techs every 4-5 turns, and it seems to me that the turns counter is bugged.

player1 · February 24, 2002, 20:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Marcus
Beginning by mid- Middle ages in my actual first 1.17f game, I noticed a research completion bug I never saw before: whatever my economy settings ( 8-2-0, 7-3-0, 6-4-0,....., 2-8-0, etc...) I get each tech every 4-6 turns even if initially it takes more than 15, 20 turns. Sometimes after 4-5 turns, the required number of turns drops drastically from 10+ turns to a single turn ( within next turn ) and I get the "boosted" tech...the AI has the same bonus I've never saw pre-1.17. In fact I can't take the tech lead in the same Monarch conditions since the AI gets the techs every 4-5 turns, and it seems to me that the turns counter is bugged.

That's not a bug.
That's a feature.
It existed before 1.17

Anytime new civ discovers same tech, tech become cheaper for other civs.
So if one civ trade tech with several others in same turn, then you'll need a much less time to research that tech.

Or you could buy it much cheaper? (quick discovery rate ==> cheap tech)

watorrey · February 24, 2002, 20:56

Quote:

Originally posted by pauli

one i just noticed: i'm talking to the egyptians (i had some troops in their territory exploring). i clicked through what my foreign advisor had to say, and something extremely odd came up:

thing is... she did nothing of the sort. they seemed to get along fine, right up to the point where i exterminated the greeks.

doesn't seem quite right. i'd say it's a frivolous bug, except that i strongly suspect such erronious logic is being used by the ai as well - which almost certainly screws up relations between civs.

This just means she broke a treaty at some earlier point in the game w/ them.

watorrey · February 24, 2002, 21:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Marcus
Beginning by mid- Middle ages in my actual first 1.17f game, I noticed a research completion bug I never saw before: whatever my economy settings ( 8-2-0, 7-3-0, 6-4-0,....., 2-8-0, etc...) I get each tech every 4-6 turns even if initially it takes more than 15, 20 turns. Sometimes after 4-5 turns, the required number of turns drops drastically from 10+ turns to a single turn ( within next turn ) and I get the "boosted" tech...the AI has the same bonus I've never saw pre-1.17. In fact I can't take the tech lead in the same Monarch conditions since the AI gets the techs every 4-5 turns, and it seems to me that the turns counter is bugged.

It has always done that. You just haven't noticed it before because now the damn AI trades techs like crazy and there is no way to stay ahead.

pauli · February 24, 2002, 21:48

Quote:

This just means she broke a treaty at some earlier point in the game w/ them.

i don't believe she did. they got along great, and had a right of passage agreement from as soon as it was possible, up to the point where i finished my genocidal rampage. as far as i know they were never at war; their empires did not border one another (first the romans were in between, then i was (once i killed the romans)). they might possibly have been trading resources, but i don't think they were. i never saw an "active trade" line between them (and yes, i had embassies from as early on as possible).

watorrey · February 24, 2002, 22:17

Quote:

Originally posted by pauli

i don't believe she did. they got along great, and had a right of passage agreement from as soon as it was possible, up to the point where i finished my genocidal rampage. as far as i know they were never at war; their empires did not border one another (first the romans were in between, then i was (once i killed the romans)). they might possibly have been trading resources, but i don't think they were. i never saw an "active trade" line between them (and yes, i had embassies from as early on as possible).

A common reason for this is if they had an alliance at some point and she made peace before the 20 turns was up. Some treaty or other was broken or you wouldn't get that msg.

What cracks me up, is after you wipe someone out, they get refered to as your friend.

Master Marcus · February 24, 2002, 22:31

Quote:

Originally posted by watorrey
It has always done that. You just haven't noticed it before because now the damn AI trades techs like crazy and there is no way to stay ahead.

Yeah I admit, but that doesn't explain the several turns remaining boosted into one ( the number next to the tech in the lower right corner of the screen ) : some kind of cheat to compensate the now faster than light AI research???

watorrey · February 24, 2002, 23:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Marcus

Yeah I admit, but that doesn't explain the several turns remaining boosted into one ( the number next to the tech in the lower right corner of the screen ) : some kind of cheat to compensate the now faster than light AI research???

Not a cheat. The total cost for the tach is reduced proportionally by how many known civs have it. Assume 8 civs. So if it was going to take 8 turns, you have 4 left and all of a sudden 4 civs get it (which is likely now), it is half price and you already researched half of it. So... you get it next turn.

pauli · February 24, 2002, 23:29

Quote:

A common reason for this is if they had an alliance at some point and she made peace before the 20 turns was up. Some treaty or other was broken or you wouldn't get that msg.

thing is, there have only been two wars in my entire game - me vs the romans, and me vs the greeks. there was nobody to have an alliance against (no, they didn't have an alliance against me)!

Quote:

What cracks me up, is after you wipe someone out, they get refered to as your friend.

yeah... that's the other part about it that's so weird.

Master2000 · February 25, 2002, 05:14

Civ3 feels more completed with the latest patch. Only minor thing left that has been reported in this thread.

Does anyone know why the AI doesn't upgrade units? It's funny to see all those warriors running around at year 1950. Panzer meat!

Thant · February 25, 2002, 09:11

Not a biggie, but still: Shift-A workers and their preference for pollution clean-up.

Great, but maybe a bit too much. When you have large cities that aren't fully developped with roads/railroads, and pollution appears on an unconnected tile, you have huge numbers of workers trying to get there. I had 34 workers walking to a pollution tile (2 tiles away from next road), and then another 13 on the next turn, while those 34 had arrived and were getting ready for an overkill insta cleanup

pauli · February 25, 2002, 12:38

Quote:

Does anyone know why the AI doesn't upgrade units? It's funny to see all those warriors running around at year 1950. Panzer meat!

somebody did the math, and the particularly when the computer doesn't get the workshop, it's often better off without upgrading. cannon fodder provides cover for a counter attack... and 70gold to upgrade from a warrior to infantry (or however much it is) is the equivalent of 70 turns of free support.

surt · February 25, 2002, 14:02

For no obvious reason, this mod crashes if you hit y for the one remaining unit to move, and the game proceeds to the next turn.

Also, all my mods crash early on in the game if I alter the colors/unique colors of the civs at all.

Edit: Note -- this mod doesn't change the colors, and in fact this turn is very late in the game ... in the late 19xx's.

Edit: I'd also love to be able to set the start date, stop date, and years/turn pattern on a mod.

Willem · February 25, 2002, 14:57

Quote:

Originally posted by surt
For no obvious reason, this mod crashes if you hit y for the one remaining unit to move, and the game proceeds to the next turn.

Also, all my mods crash early on in the game if I alter the colors/unique colors of the civs at all.

There's been a problem for awhile now regarding changing the colours. It's not an advisable thing to do at this moment.

Whoha · February 25, 2002, 19:35

i whipped a settler from a city I was exploiting the whip in and it transferred the unhappyness to the next nearest city(my capital do'h) after the temporary city was disbanded

Willem · February 25, 2002, 19:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Whoha
i whipped a settler from a city I was exploiting the whip in and it transferred the unhappyness to the next nearest city(my capital do'h) after the temporary city was disbanded

Someone from Firaxis confirmed that it's a feature.

Whoha · February 26, 2002, 00:11

well, guess im not going to be able to disband my temporary cities.

bj · February 26, 2002, 10:29

A few things have had me pounding my fists on the desk in frustration since i started playing civ3, unlikely combat results is one. For this case I didnt though, it's that unbelievably ridiculous, and consistent, that it's obvious it's a bug.

An army with 3 cossacks 13/14 attacking a CONSCRIPT rifleman in the iroquois capital. The first point of damage is usually made in the first 2 strikes, but then the army is defeated entirely, at which point the rifleman becomes Regular (and is then defeatable). Check out the save yourself, load, end turn, select army in stack outside city and attack. I did this at least 6 times in a row. IIRC I'd already defeated a number of conscripts with the other cossacks in the stack, suggesting it could be an army problem ?