Knowledgeyou don't understand

rremus · October 16, 2000, 04:25

Hi,
I don't think is fair that you can obtain knowledge trough conquest or exchange wich is simply way out of your current level. I suggest that when you obtain such a knowledge, it should NOT be available to you. It should stay in an 'inactive' mode until you have the required knowledge to understand it.
E.g. you obtain Philosophy from an exchange, but you don't have Literacy. As soon as you research Literacy, you will also obtain Philosophy. Something like 'Our scientist have discovered Literacy. They finally understood that Philosophy we obtained from the Greeks 4 turns ago'.
Even more, if the advance you obtained requires more steps on the tech tree, you won't even be able to see the name of that advance. You conquer a city and you select some 'Unknown advace'. Later on the game, when you've reached on the tech tree the branch than is one level below that 'Unknown advance', you'll get a message like 'Our scientist have understood what is the Unknown Advance we obtained 6 turns ago. Its is Mobile Warfare. We need to research Automobile to unrestand it completely'.
What do you think?
Regards,

[This message has been edited by rremus (edited October 27, 2000).]

Deathwalker · October 16, 2000, 04:39

Personally I think overall it's a good idea but needs more details, also have tech given to you should be exceptable, though getting it though conquest should have some rules like size and age of city.

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I have walked since the dawn of time and were ever I walk, death is sure to follow

CornMaster · October 17, 2000, 00:53

I think that is an excellent idea. But I also think that when you conquer a city that you can build whatever the last civ was building. If they left something partly built I think the new civ should be able to finish it and learn from it.

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rremus · October 17, 2000, 03:02

quote:

Originally posted by CornMaster on 10-16-2000 12:53 PM
But I also think that when you conquer a city that you can build whatever the last civ was building

I'm not sure about this. You find the foundations of an aqueduct and you sudenly understand construction?
I think is more appropiate to learn advances related to city improvements you find intact! You find a Granary and you can understand Pottery. But this also is not very accurate. You see a Cathedral and ou suddenly understand Monotheism? Not sure about it.
BTW, I don't now how is the game working now, but if you conquer a city with a Cathedral and you didn't discover Monotheism, is the Cathedral still doing it's effect? I think it shouldn't. In fact, any improvement that is beyond your understanding should be destroyed. This is pretty much how it happens in the real world

UltraSonix · October 17, 2000, 04:27

*Smacks hand on forehead*

This is the best suggestion here for a while! It's so simple and yet elegant!

quote:

I don't think is fair that you can obtain knowledge trough conquest or exchange wich is simply way out of your current level. I suggest that when you obtain such a knowledge, it should NOT be available to you. It should stay in an 'inactive' mode until you have the required knowledge to understand it.

This, as stated like this, should definitely be implemented!

quote:

Even more, if the advance you obtained requires more steps on the tech tree, you won't even be able to see the name of that advance. You conquer a city and you select some 'Unknown advace'. Later on the game, when you've reached on the tech tree the branch than is one level below that 'Unknown advance', you'll get a message like 'Our scientist have understood what is the Unknown Advance we obtained 6 turns ago. Its is Mobile Warfare. We need to research Automobile to unrestand it completely'.

This is a very good idea, and perhaps the "unknown advance" could be called "research papers" or "scientific papers".

And I agree with rremus, the build-last-thing idea might not be so good...

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary...

Tiberius · October 17, 2000, 08:53

I think Remus has right, but I also have a small counterproposal.

I think sometimes you could apply techs which are beyond your knowledge level. This is especially true for (I'm not sure what is the right word here) "applied sciences". Your people could learn HOW to do some things, whitout knowing WHAT are they doing. Of course, you wouldn't be able to use this "half-known" knowledge for further research, or for trading purposes, until you discover all the prereq techs.
Maybe there should be some penalties for using such a "half-known" tech, for ex. slower or more expensive goods production.

Of course, this wouldn't work for all techs (for. ex, in the case of literacy->philosophy will not). But for "applied sciences" I think it's a sollution.

If this sounds too complicated, than Firaxis should use at least Remus' model.

Shogun Gunner · October 17, 2000, 22:21

Good idea except the advances vary so wildly in complexity.

If I see pottery, I can figure out how to keep food in it.

If I see a tank, I have no idea what "mobile warfare" is, especially since it's more than technology...it involves military tactics.

I think your comments about a Cathedral in a conquered city would not give a deep understanding of Monotheism to the conquerers make sense... and yes, sadly in real life, you are right, usually these things are destroyed.

A rule would have to hold true throughout the game and it would be hard to work a rule that was fair to the two extremes of technologies.

[This message has been edited by Shogun Gunner (edited October 17, 2000).]

October 18, 2000, 04:38

I love rremus' idea. Don't you just hate it when you're ahead of everyone else in science, and suddenly some AIs who are extremely backward steal the necessary techs and start building their own.

ColdWizard · October 18, 2000, 22:26

rremus' idea is good. If you don't have the requirements than you shouldn't be able to use the advanced tech.

Joseph · October 19, 2000, 17:10

During WW2, the Russian were many years behind the United State in Bomber and Jet fighter development. In 1944, when we started to bomb Japan with the B-29, some of them crashed landed in Russia. The Russian did not give them back to us. In 1948 I belive, the Russian few several Bombers over Moscow for the May day parade, we thought they were our planes until our people got a closer look and found out the Russian had copies our planes as the TU-4. Also the new British PM in 1947/48 wanter to prove he was a good guy, so he gave the Russian a Roll Royce jet engine and two years later (1950) the Russian had the Mig-15 with the help of their German Engineers. After our traitors gave the Russian the A-bomb secrets, it only took four years for them to build one. When you gain the knowledge, you still have to build one (what ever it is).

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Sirotnikov · October 19, 2000, 22:23

quote:

Originally posted by Joseph on 10-19-2000 05:10 PM
After our traitors gave the Russian the A-bomb secrets, it only took four years for them to build one. When you gain the knowledge, you still have to build one (what ever it is).

IIRC the information the russian received about the A-bomb was from spies. It was very partial and it took the russians several years to complete a whole A-bomb.

I think the acse with the ytaitors was about the H-bomb.

I'm not sure since I saw so many documentaries about this that my head aches

Am I right?
==========

Any way, regarding the Idea it-self, I agree.

I am sick and tired of the AI stealing "stealth" when he doesn't even have automobile. (ok ok, so I'm exaggurating here, but you get my point

)

Also in the late game I often find the AIs trading things like: Litarcy, Misticism, Feudlaizm. And that's after the automobile. Does that make sense?
It's also because the AI often trades / steals techs ithout researching.

Tiberius · October 20, 2000, 01:53

Since it seems to me that everybody here agree with this excellent idea, I say we should send it to Firaxis. It's not an earthquaking breaktrough in the developmnent of Civ3, but still a good idea, and it would be a shame to waste it.

We could send an e-mail to Firaxis, "signed" by as many apolytoners as possible. Who said we may send only lists?

What do you think?

red_jon · October 21, 2000, 06:26

I think this is a great idea as--

I was playing Civnet. I was very advanced while the Aztecs were not.

I gave them automobile, looked in their city view screen and they had roads and cars BETWEEN THEIR TEEPEES!!

While it was incredibly funny, I don't think its very realistic...

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...And if the British Commonwealth and its people live for a thousand years, man will still say "this was their finest hour".

Shogun Gunner · October 21, 2000, 13:19

quote:

Originally posted by red_jon on 10-21-2000 06:26 AM
I think this is a great idea as--

I was playing Civnet. I was very advanced while the Aztecs were not.

I gave them automobile, looked in their city view screen and they had roads and cars BETWEEN THEIR TEEPEES!!

While it was incredibly funny, I don't think its very realistic...

Instead of "Chief Sitting Bull" he would have become "Chief Driving Dodge"

That is incredibly funny.

UltraSonix · October 21, 2000, 18:44

quote:

I gave them automobile, looked in their city view screen and they had roads and cars BETWEEN THEIR TEEPEES!!

While it was incredibly funny, I don't think its very realistic...

So I guess that's why the orginal suggestion by rremus would probably be very good.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary...

Tim White · October 23, 2000, 19:50

I am totally for it rremus!!

UltraSonix · October 23, 2000, 20:27

Off topic, but to:

quote:

(and are there any girls ????)

Empress is the only is one who I know occasionally looks into this forum. The rest of the girls are in OT.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary...

Vrank Prins · October 24, 2000, 00:04

Rremus,

As you can see I have read this thread. I couldn't agree more with what Ultrasonix (and all the others) said, what an excellent idea, good show old chap

.
To all the other guys (and are there any girls ????) out there, the same point has come up in the thread war & progress. So if you want to read some other thoughts about the consequences of this idea, go there!
While reading my printout from this I got some idea's I need to work out some more. Also in connection to what I have said in the thread war & progress.

[This message has been edited by Vrank Prins (edited October 23, 2000).]

rremus · October 27, 2000, 08:51

Another idea I had is related to how you treat your scientists: If you have no science funds allocated for a small number of turns, your scientists should desert and and sell your knowledges to other civs.

Biddles · October 27, 2000, 22:04

This is the only idea in ages worth mentioning. Good work rremus.

Only one suggestion: Maybe when you get these "unknown research and applied information" you decided that it may be of some benefit to look into this. Since you have the engineering advance this is possible. Next time you have to pick a tech to investigate you pick "reverse engineer unknown research and applied information fron CivX". This would eneable you to back discover the techs neccesary for that advance, maybe with a small bonus brcause you have something to work with (20%?). Of course you wouldn't get any of the tech advances until you have uncovered the lowest ones.

Well, that's for people who want realism. I think (as a UoP player) the idea is great anyway.

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- Biddles

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cityhelper · October 28, 2000, 00:03

Great idea! It just seems so stupid when diplomats/spies can steal Space Flight knowledge, put a space ship in the air but not even have the knowledge to build basic airplanes and rockets! This is so very annoying in my humble opinion.

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rremus · October 30, 2000, 04:08

quote:

Originally posted by Biddles on 10-27-2000 10:04 PM
This would eneable you to back discover the techs neccesary for that advance, maybe with a small bonus brcause you have something to work with (20%?).

You mean research "reverese engineer X" and your scientist should research the tech tree that leads to X? I'm not sure about this. What if the tech tree consist of 10 or so technologies? You don't know what X is, yet! You start reverse engineering it, then the research can take a LOT of time, because, it needs to reasearch (even with 20% bonuses!) all the 10 advances you need to understand X!
How about this: a 20% bonus on researching any of the 10 advances that leads to X. It can work like this: you got X somehow (coquest, exchange). If you select 'Reverse engineer X', it should be a fairly complex task (100-200 science bulbs). Once you achieve it, you know the name of X and the advances you need to research to get X have a 10-20% bonus. But you still have to research them individually. This bonus should be, of course, displayed when you select a new advance to research.
Also, the bonuses should be cumulative. If two unknown advances require Y and you reverse engineered both of them, then Y gets bonus twice.

However, I think this model is a little bit too complicated... I would be happy if at least they implement the model when you cannot understand something you aquire and is beyond your level of knowledge.
Regards,
Remus
[This message has been edited by rremus (edited October 30, 2000).]

Biddles · October 30, 2000, 05:27

Yeah, I see your point. Scrap Reverse engineering altogether. But the idea about to advanced techs should definetly be in civ3.

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- Biddles

"Now that our life-support systems are utilising the new Windows 2027 OS, we don't have to worry about anythi......."
Mars Colonizer Mission

UltraSonix · November 2, 2000, 00:03

I think they do see the threads, they just lurk and don't respond... at least that what I'm hoping they're doing!

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary...

Tiberius · November 2, 2000, 01:46

Bump...

It's one very, very good idea. I think Firaxis should see it.

Paulypav · November 2, 2000, 15:48

How about a real simple solution. You can't steal or obtain a technology if you don't have the prerequisite technology for it. If you've got the technology then its all yours. If you've done all the research leading up to a new advance then you are likely to be able to figure it out. The russians couldn't have copied our plans if they didn't already have certain technological developments.

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"In war, there is no substitute for victory."
- Douglas MacArthur

rremus · November 3, 2000, 05:40

Yes, I think thats fair enough. The game should enforce this rule: when you negotiate a technologiy exchange, it should offer you only technologies at your current level. When you still technologies, also should be able to steal only the technologies you can understant.
This will work of course as long as the AI WONT'CHEAT (as it does so often now!). If the AI also follow this rule, any AI civ will have only complete technology 'trees' (no missing links), so you will always have a technology to steal or obtain if they have something more advanced that you.

Biddles · November 3, 2000, 20:43

I agree on the tech trade part, only offer techs that the civ has pre-req's for. I hated when you were the first to get gunpowder, and whenever you traded techs, that was all any other civ would take.

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- Biddles

"Now that our life-support systems are utilising the new Windows 2027 OS, we don't have to worry about anythi......."
Mars Colonizer Mission

Maccabee2 · November 6, 2000, 19:15

"How about a real simple solution. You can't steal or obtain a technology if you don't have the prerequisite technology for it. If you've got the technology then its all yours. If you've done all the research leading up to a new advance then you are likely to be able to figure it out. The russians couldn't have copied our plans if they didn't already have certain technological developments."

Wow! Great idea! This should definitely be in Civ3!

rremus · December 12, 2000, 05:31

bump!