Air Naval Combat for Firaxis and Modders and You

[Willem]

Originally posted by notyoueither

I'm trying to remain focused on what the designers are likely to find useful for their plans. Assuming they ain't done planning yet.

I'm sure there's always the possibility of the "Why didn't I think of that?" factor. At least I'm hoping on it.

(I love that grin.)

[notyoueither]

I hope they read the whole thread and not just what I eventually edit at the beginning.

Salve

[Willem]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I hope they read the whole thread and not just what I eventually edit at the beginning.

Salve

All you can do is plant a seed and hope it grows.

[korn469]

Good to hear from korn in this thread. It would be better if he put forth some ideas... [Nudge, nudge]. I'm sure he has some.

ok you asked for it

ok here is the combat oriented changes i've made in civ3

first i upped the hitpoints to the following levels

Conscript 4
Regular 6
Veteran 9
Elite 12

this has two effects, it makes it much less likely for better units to lose, and it makes better trained forces more valuable than in civ3

secondly i seperated the military ability from the trade ability of the harbor and the airport and i created a building that makes veteran naval units (port facility) and a building that makes veteran air units (airforce installation)

i also upped the cost and maintenance of these buildings

Barracks 80/1
Port Facility 120/2
Airforce Installation 160/3 (oil)

this means that to have those good combat units you need to invest into military infrastructure

while i did a few changes early on the stats are close to civ3 stats for the first two ages, but in the industrial and modern era i about changed everything

_____________________________________
Industrial Era Land Units
Grenadier 8.4.1 60/1 {Marines} Nationalism
Rifleman 6.8.1 60/1 {Infantry}
Infantry 10.12.2 80/1 {Mech Infantry} rubber
Partisan 6.5.4 40/1 (hidden nationality, invisable) Replaceable Parts
Marine 15.10.2 100/1 (amphibious unit) rubber
Tank 20.10.3 100/1 (blitz) {Modern Armor} oil, iron
Panzer 20.10.4 100/1 (blitz) {Tank} oil, iron
Paratrooper 12.12.2 [8] 110/1 (airdrop) oil, rubber
Artillary 0.1.2 16[5]2 80 {Radar Artillary} iron

first thing i added a new unit to cover the gap in offensive units between longbowmen and marines, this should help out both the player and especially the AI, then i upped the units stats, as you can see combat should be more fast paced, and marines and paratroopers are actually worthwhile
_____________________________________
Modern Land Units
Mech Infantry 16.24.4 120/1 (blitz) oil, iron, rubber
Modern Armor 32.16.4 120/1 (blitz) oil, iron, rubber
Radar Artillary 0.1.3 20[6]2 120 (blitz, radar) oil, aluminum
Cruise Missile 0.0.1 15[8]4 60 (tactical missile, cruise missile, foot soldier, load, airlift) aluminum
Tactical Nuke 0.0.1 0[0]8 130 aluminum, uranium
ICBM 0.0.1 (ICBM) 250 aluminum, uranium

besides making nuclear weapons truly dangerous, i powered down the defense of the modern armor unit and upped the speed of the mech infantry and i made it so that a player would have to have a strong trade network to build them, but modern armor and mech infantry should be used in tandem...i also made the radar artillary unit a fast moving hard hitting piece of equipment that cannot be captured
_____________________________________
Ancient Naval Units
Outrigger 0.1.2 10|1 (sink in sea, sink in ocean) {Galley} NONE
Galley 2.2.3 30|2 {Caravel}

Middle Age Naval Units
Caravel 0.2.4 40|3 {Galleon}
Frigate 6.4.5 6[4]1 60 {Ironclad} iron, saltpeter
Man-O-War 8.4.5 8[5]1 60 {Frigate} iron, saltpeter
Galleon 0.3.5 50|4 {Transport}
Privateer 5.2.6 50 (hidden nationality, zoc) {Destroyer} iron, saltpeter

Industrial Era Naval Units
Ironclad 10.9.6 8[5]1 80 {Destroyer} iron, coal
Transport 0.8.8 90|8 oil
Destroyer 14.12.11 8[5]1 100 (can see submarines) {Aegis Cruiser} oil, iron
Battleship 30.20.10 14[6]2 200 oil, iron, coal
Carrier 0.18.10 200|5 (radar) oil, rubber
Submarine 16.6.9 100 (can see submarines, zoc) oil

Modern Naval Units
Aegis Cruiser 16.24.11 12[5]1 160|3 (can see submarines, radar, can carry tactical missiles, carry foot units only) aluminum, uranium
Nuclear Submarine 10.12.10 150|3 (can see submarines, can carry tactical missiles) aluminum, uranium

as you can see with naval units i just tossed the firaxis stats and rebalanced them to what i thought was correct and balanced
_____________________________________
Industrial Era Air Units
Fighter 6.5.3 8[4]6 100 (blitz) {F-15} oil, rubber
Bomber 0.3.3 12[8]8 120 (blitz) oil, rubber
Helicopter 0.2.3 0[0]6 100 (can see submarines/invisable units) oil, rubber

Modern Air Units
Jet Fighter 12.10.4 12[6]8 150 (blitz, radar) oil, aluminum
F-15 12.10.4 15[8]8 150 (blitz, radar) {Jet Fighter} oil, aluminum
Stealth Fighter 0.4.4 16[6]8 150 (blitz, radar, stealth) oil, aluminum, uranium
Stealth Bomber 0.2.4 18[10]8 300 (blitz, radar, stealth) oil, aluminum, uranium

while air units might not be able to sink ships, with their ability to strike multiple times in one turn coupled with the higher hitpoints they should be able to terrorize ships that stray too close to the coast, as well as be able to bomb a civ into submission
_____________________________________
Armies
Army -.-.1 100|2 (army, blitz, pillage)
Modern Army -.-.1 130|4 (army, blitz, pillage) Radio

i simply made armies worthwhile to build, also i removed the victorious army requirement from the Military academy so players will actually be able to build a military machine if they wish
_____________________________________

anyways you can check out all of these changes in action in my blitz mod found here

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...8&pagenumber=1

those are just values i think make the game better, and they are open to change from further playtesting

I'm trying to remain focused on what the designers are likely to find useful for their plans. Assuming they ain't done planning yet

i agree, all efforts at getting firaxis to rebalance the game should come from suggestions that could actually make it into the game, there is alot of ways that units could be balanced but i feel we should only concentrate on what is plausiable

what would u think it would take to get firaxis to seriously reconsider the current unit values and change them to different ones?

[notyoueither]

First reply. Sh*t. Be careful what you wish for. OK, I'm off for an hour or so to examine the preceding.

Salve

[notyoueither]

korn

OK, not quite an hour.

I like the hit points. I think every mod I've seen has had some increases. I hope Firaxis is taking note of this, if indeed it is so wide-spread. I haven't looked at a lot of them though.

I like the simplicity of your vetern unit making buildings. I'm not at all certain that Firaxis will launch into a whole new line of thought by requiring buildings for certain units. However, as Willem indicated, maybe, just maybe.

Interesting, and very well thought out stats. I like how the DD still escorts the ACr and the NukeSub catches up to the CV. Make Nimitz nervous.

My question to you would be, how could the editor be changed to aid you in doing what you really dream of doing? How can Firaxis set you free?

Salve

[notyoueither]

BTW, if they are all listening to us the way Soren seems to be, they might just seriously consider changing the base unit stats. Especially when they examine a number of well thought out mods.

[Edit] But that would have to be Gold or other serious re-release. Have to be able to print new manuals. [/Edit]

Salve

[korn469]

Salve

i really hope you download the blitz mod and playtest it, lockstep and techwins have been great about giving feedback and the more feedback the better the mod is

anyways the parts of the editor that i really feel constrained in is not so much the military parts

there are a few things that could be better

1) different amounts of hitpoints throughout the eras could open up some interesting possibilities

2) more guerrilla war options could also open up some other interesting possibilities

3) a small list of SMAC like unit abilities, things like foot soldiers get a bonus against cities, pikemen have double defense against mounted units, etc.

4) ways to edit armies, so you could grant them combined arms bonuses

5) a way to make a leader not build an army but instead build a commander unit which all armies could have one (and only one) commander and the commander provides +25% to all units in the armies, so you could have a *insert favorite general's name here* leading your army, but the commander would automatically disappear after like 20-50 turns (give an editor option for this)

where i really feel constrained is on the tech, culture, diplomacy, buildings, wonders, specialist, and especially the government side

small touches from civ2 like courthouses giving an extra +1 to happiness really made it impressive

basically, my dream editor would be able to allow the player to recreate the rules (if not the artwork) of any of the previous Civ games (Civ, Civ2 and expansion, SMAC/X) and give this functionality to the player, that would open up a world of possible modifications

as it is, the editor straightjackets the player

[notyoueither]

As I said. I hope they read the whole thread.

Salve

[Deathwalker]

I do like the idea of being able to set special unit atributes like in Civ 2 and SMAP. It was a pitty they all but removed them from Civ 3

[Panag]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Thought re Galley in Ocean.

What were those Vikings sailing in anyway?

Salve

hmmm , howmany would have sunk on the way ?

anyway , where are those extra slots , nowhere , grrr , and all the rest , grrrr , hey , they have some maps , lol , the civ3 site , gets updated , pfffff ones in 3 months , well okay , in 2.5 , still , if they are doing a nice job , then where is the good game , where ?

have a nice day

[notyoueither]

I was going to let this thread sleep with the fishes. Seemed there was not enough interest to keep it going.

Maybe I was wrong. Seems the sea dogs never retire they just slip under the waves.

Anyways, bump.

Salve

[planetfall]

Originally posted by notyoueither
AirRange: Maximum Operational Range in editor needs to be greatly increased from the current 8. To what, 16? 32? 64? Why is it so limited now? You can adjust Movement up to 100. This is a bit different from increases in actual *standard* bic file settings as distributed by Firaxis/Infogrames (they should increase some too). Large increases in the range of the value for this variable will help modders.

How about an option to set range of aircraft as percentage of Modern navy {carrier,BS, AESIS, destroyer}.

Unbalanced play in one game by increasing modern navy to 7-9 tiles per turn. BUT since air can only go to 8. Even running regular patrols, lost a carrier to surprise attack because a BS stack set up just outside my aircraft range and in one turn stack hit my carrier. Should have the option of setting bomber range up to 3x BS and fighter up to
2x BS.

re: planes sinking ships

Get over it. Game play is great now, you need a coordinated sea air campaign to take out ships. Better option add an exercet missile option. Only planes carrying this missile could take out ships. Should be easy to modify tac nuke to provide this capability.
1 tile impact range, no pollution.

[candidgamera]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I was going to let this thread sleep with the fishes. Seemed there was not enough interest to keep it going.

Maybe I was wrong. Seems the sea dogs never retire they just slip under the waves.

Anyways, bump.

Salve

Let's just hope some of this get's considered by the Firaxis people, eh? May not agree with everything here, but am with you
on making seapower better. Too many great powers in history were sea powers for sea power not to be a properly addressed part of civ.

[candidgamera]

For those that don't go to civ fanatics forum, here's some word on planes sinking ships option in the editor:

Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Firaxian

Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Hunt Valley MD

Not yet. But there will be.


Dan


__________________
Dan Magaha
Firaxis Games, Inc.

[notyoueither]

Dan said that?





I Sorry.

I guess I can *get over it* now.

There remain some other issues that could greatly enhance the flavour of navies and air power in the game.

The limits on air range make it very difficult to adjust ship movement rates. Some ships (and some other units) will need AA values. What else?

Salve

[korn469]

will AA fire be included in this or what?

plus like nye said, is there anything in the works for increasing the operational range of air units?

how about a fix for the size 1 city bombard bug?

[notyoueither]

korn.

A bit OT, but why not. When you say size 1 city bombard bug I assume you are referring to the wasted shots that would have hit civilians, right?

If so, I'm not sure it is a bug.

Bombardment is subject to the laws of diminishing returns. Well packed areas would yield better shell to damage ratios than more sparsely occupied/built up areas. Some target areas would yield very poor results after significant bombardment. Some other areas may not yield good results even before the first shell flies.

When bombardment begins to yield fewer results when a city starts at or is reduced to 1 pop, I do not have a problem with it.

Of course, maybe the designers did not intend those shots to be wasted. If so, then it is a bug. But then again, maybe they intended to give this advantage to the few buildings a 1 pop city would have and to the troops who would garrison that burg.

Salve

[korn469]

nye

well it is a VERY poor implementation, and again these freaky things only happen at size one, same with pop rushing

no matter what the bombard strength of a unit is, and no matter that the defense strength of a unit is, when units are in a size 1 city with no buildings then bombard fails 2 of out three times

in a size 2 city with a single building with outrageous bombard strength compared to defense bombards fails 1 out of 1001 tries (assuming 1000 bombard and one defense like i tested it at)

that is not a small increase, that is a huge jump from about a .09% failure rate to about a 67% percent failure rate...i mean why should bombardment fail about 670 times as much in a size 1 city without buildings as what it does in a size 2 city with a temple?

to me if that is not a bug then it is a very poor design choice that needs to be fixed, if you have a fortifed unit in a fortress on a mountain across a river all of those defense bonuses adds up to 25%+50%+100%+25% or only about three times as much as an unfortified unit on a grasslands tile, and to get all of those bonuses you have to work for it...why should a player get those huge rewards for the other player doing a good job?

bug or not it needs to be fixed

But then again, maybe they intended to give this advantage to the few buildings a 1 pop city would have and to the troops who would garrison that burg

ok now this is what i don't understand at all...here i am saying that air units need massive help because they don't deliver proper bang for the buck, this has always been my argument, but for some reason most people think if they can kill ships suddenly they aren't going to suck...and you were one of the people saying they really needed the help from sinking ships, yet in a situation where air units become virtually unusable you think it is ok?

i don't understand at all

i mean i came across this bug after i had pumped up air units, with normal air units it would be virtually impossible to bomb out a large group of units in a city, and i think this applies to artillary bombards as well...i mean if you brought a settler along with you and built a size one city close to the enemy and purposely made it not grow then you would be immune to their bombard units...i thought you wanted half way decent airpower too?

[candidgamera]

Originally posted by korn469
will AA fire be included in this or what?

plus like nye said, is there anything in the works for increasing the operational range of air units?

Absolutely on the operational range of aircraft. Have concluded in general the best solution for ship movement is adjust it according to world size so crossing oceans is not so much like travelling to alpha centauri.

On 256x256 I'm trying Galley-4, Caravel-6, Frigate, Galleon-8, Destroyer - 16, Carrier - 14, Battleship -12, transport - 10, ironclad 6 or something like that (have them sinking in sea and ocean too).

Reasoning on ironclad: an abstract way to represent that sail was still important for some time after steam came along. From WARSHIP tape get the impression steamships needed a good net of coaling stations, the propeller, and later the turbine to come into their own. Clipper ships heyday a good example of this.

nye:
The response was to a general question about bombardment, which ought to make you happy.

korn:
Don't know if they'll give the air strength improvements have now to units - that would be a straight forward solution.

Link:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...threadid=18335

[korn469]

and if the size 1 rule is what they intended, then please firaxis give me a switch to turn this off!

[Kuciwalker]

The AA thing is, in my opinion, almost necessary for normal play and mods alike. It would really just need to be like the Air Superiority command, except the unit wouldn't move during it, just fire at the air unit. This would allow for SAM emplacements, REALISTIC AEGIS, flak batteries, etc. It would also be very good for space scenarios, allowing starships to shoot back at fighters. Also, an option for whether or not a unit can be destroyed by bombardment or bombing. Firaxis doesn't need to implement these abilities, just give us the ability to use them. Otherwise a LOT of scenario ideas are down the toilet.

[Tarquelne]

We just can't wait for Harpoon 4, huh?

Land vrs. Sea combat values: A few posts early on (I'm hoping no one else has already writting what I'm about it, and I missed it over the last 2 pages) mentioned needing to change ship combat values because they seemed to low compared to land combat values... but are they ever compared? I thought that land units and ships could use thier bombard values against each other - and that's it. So, basically, the attack and defense values of the two types of units are completely independent of each other, and comparing a BB attack to a MA attack is just nonesensical.

Ummm.... anything to contribute?

Hmm... I have made a few changes that vastly increased my enjoyment of the (tiny) naval portion of Civ3.

Several tweaks to values (combat and cost) of naval units - esp. modern ones. The most important single change being increasing the range of BBs from 2 to 3. Really made 'em feel like battleships.

My "Glorifying the Age of Sail" modification. Rearrainged the tech tree a little to make Frigates, Galleons, MoW etc. come several steps earlier, and moved Ironclads 1 tech later. Probably less true to history, but I like having pirates and frigates and such around.

A suggestion:
Submarines: Has the potential ability of subs. (or blockades in general) to sever "supply" lines for Strategic or Luxury resources, not just generic gold or shields, been mentioned? I think that'd be super. And I do think an abstract system would work fine.
The less coding the better.... I think the simplest way to handle it might be this:

Game compares Naval Strength values between civs. I think something pretty simple would work - sums of attack+defense values for all warships, or something. (Hmm.... sum of defense values for all ships with an attack value?) Certain units (like DDs) can count twice... or not, not a big deal.

Here's where it gets more complicated: Submarines are built like "Wealth." Each turn you build any "Submarines" you're generating a "Subwarfare total." The higher your SW total, the better the odds that you'll increase corruption in a city that has a sea-connection to the capital, or cut the flow of Resources over a sea-connection for a set number of turns. Your SW total (or the probability of getting a good result from the total) is modified by comparing your Naval Strength to all your opponent's Naval Strengths.

Another way to do it would be to have each Sub. be built like a building or unit - takes a certain # of turns, then it's complete. Each time you complete a Sub you get a "roll" on the SW table. (And, I guess, you can keep the sub and try to sink something with it too.)

I think this method is relatively easy because the programers just need to
Step 0 (optional): Create a new "Submarine Warfare" improvement that's like Wealth. Not so simple.
Step 1: Generate some totals, and compare them. Easy, right?
Step 2: Derive the SW results from the totals. All that's needed is a virtaul dice roll and comparison to a table. Still easy, I think.
Step 3: Apply the results. Well, here's the hard part. I hope, though, that the code could re-use whatever code is already in place for blockades. The SW results would place "virtual blockades" invisibley on the map. (I'm hopeing these virtual blockades would effect fairly large sections of the supply "grid." An island, as opposed to a single city.

On yeah - the player will need to be notified as to what's going on. "Persian Submarines have blockaded the port of Aswan and associated cities."

By the way, when I write of the changes needing to be "simple" or "easy" I do so not because I think the Firaxis programmers are unskilled, but because I think that if a change is easy/simple it's far, far more likely to be implimented - I know the programmers have other things to do. Meetings, coffee, playing games, etc, etc.

[notyoueither]

korn.

I've been put in my place. I forgot that you had experimented with mega bombers. Yup, sounds more like a bug.

But still, Bombers can do the job, you just need more of them.

I get your point of the 1 pop burg as a semi-mobile Fortress. Follow your troops around with a few Settlers. Plop one down to build the Bombardment Bastion. Rush build Walls then start building a Settler. When the danger is past, and after the city grows to 2, rush buy the Settler to disband the Bombardment Bastion. Self-regenerating semi-mobile Fortresses. I don't think that's what the Russians did at Borodino, but I'll bet you see it in MP.

Now that we're talking exploit, you can just about assure yourself that it will be changed.

[Edit] BTW. I'm not simply for pumping up Air Units. I'm after a more flavourful Air-Sea combat system. I wish to see the Oceans alive with more varied units and strategies. That's what I am after. The sink ships bit is only the tip of the iceburg, so to speak.

Oh. And scratch the Walls. They'd be pointless. Build the SRSMF in Hills if available. [/Edit]

Salve

[Kuciwalker]

Also, make Air Superiority and AA cover missions that were flown through the area they cover, not just in. That way long-range bombers and such wouldn't be able to hit interior targets without being engaged by the border aircraft. I don't think this is in their already.

[planetfall]

SAM's should also work against bombers. I have only seen them work vs missiles.

Why not have both AA and SAM's?

Current: have a harbor, you have trade. Why not if freighter does not traverse between remote resource and palace connected port in 20 turns, that resource is unavailable to palace connected cites. Huh, sea freight targets. Currently we have naval power and naval unit transport, why not sea freight.

Then we would not have to worry about sea trade routes, just getting a freighter between port A and port B to keep resource availability.

Give us at least one bomber between a B17 and stealth. B52 would be a nice bridge unit.
More than 3 bombers is not necessary but at least 3 with the ability to have bombers fly further than ships. With good AA and SAM's the game play should not be all Air but require a balance between air and sea and land.

While talking about navy, why not add another switch in editor: see subs AND see SSN. SSN should not be as visible to as many surface ships as SS. A SSN primary defense is invisibility and that option is not available in present game.

[Mikel]

Thought I'd pick up on the role of Submarines. Way back someone suggested a Third Reich style tactical box that subs go to to disrupt trade. I think this is a good idea, but as korn has said we should stick to what they can work on right now (doesn't mean they shouldn't make fundamental changes to the game in future expansions) so why not give sub a blockade command that allows them to block enemy trade in a fat X (city radius) around them. This would now make disrupting a large enemies supply lines a slightly more feasible tactic, and also gives you navies a new importance other than transporting invasions.

Other types of ships could also have special functions. Caravels and Galleons could be given a Trade order if within the radius of a city with a harbour so that that city produces an extra 2 and 3 gold. Not sure about that idea but maybe it starts someone else thinking.

The aim of both these options is to create targets that are performing passive functions in the oceans that push the player and AI into forming a navy to go and deal with them, At the moment ships are just there to transport troops and support attacks which limits the games tactical options.