Unit evolution, a use of the veteran status !

[mini98ad]

We´ll all been there..
In the beginning the first Phalanx takes care of all the trouble that fall upon us. After many battles he gets his veteran status, and then comes the Pikemen, and our super Phalanx is all of a sudden obsolete...
How ´bout makin´it possible to upgrade the units.
If possible add a record and log to induvidual units, as in Panzer General, and make it possible for units to evolve thrugh the game...
I know that Leonardos Workshop in Civ2 takes us some of the way. But Why not implement this in the game as a whole...

[Christantine The Great]

Since SMAC already lets you upgrade I believe that it will be possible to upgrade your units in Civ III. And welcome to Apolyton!

[DarkCloud]

Unit Rating Progression 1.0

+0% Untrained
+10% Trained (Barracks, Training Facility)

+0% Green
+5% Hardened (2 Battles)
+10% Veteran (4 Battles)
+15% Commando (10 Battles)

[UltraSonix]

Upgrading seems to be a realistic, as well as a very useful improvement to SMAC, so I can't imagine Firaxis leaving it out...

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary... (And no, koalas don't usually speak!)

[Diablo, Bro. of Mephisto]

I agree, I hate it when I reach the year 2000 (in civ2) and I have to replace ALLLL of my riflemen with modern alpine troops, tanks, etc.

[colossus]

A simple question follow:
How do you upgrade your units?

Perhaps the unit can be upgraded by a new city improvement, let's say, the arsenal.
The arsenal can upgrade one and only one unit a time and the maintenance cost should be expensive, lest it becomes an obscene Leo's Workshop.

[Tiberius]

I agree, upgrading obsolate units is such a useful improvement; eliminates a lot of unit micromanagement.

I have only one comment to do: upgrading all of your obsolate units in one turn doesn't seem realistic to me. I can't imagine a country replacing all of their cavalrys with tanks in only one year, even at a high cost! Maybe such a process should last 2 or 3 turns, depending on the number of units you have (max x upgraded units / turn). Or even more realistic, link the upgrade process to your civ's overall shields production. Well, maybe it's too complicated.

I'd like to have the possibility to upgrade all of my units near the border (if I don't have enough money to upgrade all of my units).

[Tiberius]

Colossus, how comes that you registered in nov. 1999 and you're a settler?

I guess you upgrade your units from a "national army manager" or something like this; anyway, from a national manager and not from a city improvement. It's a tool for the player used to reduce unit-micromanagent.

[Adm.Naismith]

Tiberius, you contaddict yourself

quote: I have only one comment to do: upgrading all of your obsolate units in one turn doesn't seem realistic to me. I can't imagine a country replacing all of their cavalrys with tanks in only one year, even at a high cost! and later: I'd like to have the possibility to upgrade all of my units near the border

I suggest that SMAC silly upgrading "All units on the field", also without losing a turn will be avoided (you can upgrade a Wing of bomber mid-air ).

Upgrading a unit must be different:
. if you do a minor upgrade (in SMAC term, change something at the special slot as AAA ability, or Nerve gas) you can upgrade on the field (losing that movement turn and paying for inefficiency in combat (something like -15% for the upgrading turn) or don't counting the effect of enhancement for that same turn.

. if you do a major change (i.e. armour or weapon) you must be at a military base or city, may be you need to have barracks too into the same city. You should suffer the effect I mentioned above, plus upgrade unit should lose a level of experience (if SMAC model of very green, green, hardened, veteran, commando, elite will be in CIV3): they must learn to use the new weapon to its best, I suppose!

Units not included in previus upgrade condition should prompt a message (player option) first time they are into the right place: inside town or military base.

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[Tiberius]

quote: Tiberius, you contaddict yourself

No, I don't!
I had in mind a 3 or 4 steps (turns) upgrade. I didn't write it because I wasn't sure how good it is. Anyway, read and judge:
1. units near the border and in the capitol, if baracks/airports exist there.
2. same as 1, without baracks
3. rest of the cities with baracks/airports.
4. the remaining cities.

See? The upgrade near the borber was only the first step.
(Hehe, you thought you caught me )

Your system sounds good, too. Maybe a combination of minor/major upgrade and field related upgrade could be the best sollution.
[This message has been edited by Tiberius (edited December 06, 2000).]

[N35t0r]

i also hate not to be able to upgrade different types of units in smac. (foils to cruisers; needlejets to graviships, etc.)

also, be able to upgrade a certain group of units to x unit, and another amount of them to y units, ie: warriors in the field to horsemen, warriors in cities to phalanx.


an upgrade of weapon, or horse-tank should lower its "training" to a 0% bonus (or maybe a bit more) and the "veteranity".

[beyowulf]

What I liked in SMAC was being able to upgrade units.

But factions also had a base(as in lowest, not military base) morale, and whenever you upgraded, the units morale dropped to its base. That always annoyed me. I could see morale drop a little as the soldiers get reaquainted with the new equipment, but not the amount that took place in SMAC.

Second thing that annoyed me. Chasises. You could not upgrade the chasis of a unit. Yes, converting infantry to a speeder should be expensive, but it should be doable. The only thing you are changing is that instead the soldier walking around, he is in a car, but its still the same soldier.

[Adm.Naismith]

Tiberius

quote: (Hehe, you thought you caught me )

ROTFL

Seriusly now: your upgrade model is good and can work, still it's a bit too complex and a bit too long to achieve during a game IMHO.
Your "obsession" (sorry, I know is not the proper word, but I'm far from an english dictionary at the moment, please forgive me ) for border units upgrading first is a bit unrealistic in real world.

Let me explain:
. peace situation: best troop aren't deployed on border, they are kept inside, as "reaction force" in case of attack

. hot crisis: the attacker and the defender will try to concentrate best troops on mutual border. The defender must leave second line garrison on the other borders (with not ostile countries) and probably on the capitol too, if not directly endangered (far enough from war front

. declared war: units on line of fire (still border, in a SMAC sense) must receive best available on-the-field improvement (usually minor one, as better protection for fighter pilot adding a steel plate, or better tanks camuflages). Major change (as for new planes in a wing) are usually make when unit is resting, to do a bit of training before to use the new equipment.

In my opinion this leaves us with only the point 3 and 4 of your list, just adding to "cities" also military bases [i]outside[/b] cities, as CIV airfields, may be forts (meaning it as ground military bases), ports (if they will be added, as I hope, for naval support ouside cities).

And you can still upgrade your unit one by one (ctrl U in SMAC, a bit boring but working) if you want to privilege border units.

Do you think is a viable mix or am I passing too much of my original idea as yours?


Beyowulf, speaking of SMAC you complain that:

quote: You could not upgrade the chasis of a unit. Yes, converting infantry to a speeder should be expensive, but it should be doable. The only thing you are changing is that instead the soldier walking around, he is in a car, but its still the same soldier

In my opinion SMAC is quite realistic on this. I know on early age of aviation great aces comes from infantry or chivalry troops (e.g. Manfred von Richtofen, the Red Baron), but converting a military unit into a completely different one is not an easy task: think about changing a group of ships on a completely different hull, or add tanks (and training troops) to infantry. Also adding troop transports to infantry mean a whole different logistic (build transport, spare parts, move fuels and equipments, train drivers and mechanics, etc.).
You can mimic this upgrade moving your unit into a city, putting the new unit in production then disband the old one, cashing half of the original shields: I think in a CIV strategic level it is quite fair.

That doesn't mean I'm not as angry as you when SMAC advance reveal the cruiser hull and I'm left with a bunch of almost useless foil

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[beyowulf]

quote: Originally posted by Adm.Naismith on 12-11-2000 04:43 AM Tiberius In my opinion SMAC is quite realistic on this. I know on early age of aviation great aces comes from infantry or chivalry troops (e.g. Manfred von Richtofen, the Red Baron), but converting a military unit into a completely different one is not an easy task: think about changing a group of ships on a completely different hull, or add tanks (and training troops) to infantry. Also adding troop transports to infantry mean a whole different logistic (build transport, spare parts, move fuels and equipments, train drivers and mechanics, etc.). You can mimic this upgrade moving your unit into a city, putting the new unit in production then disband the old one, cashing half of the original shields: I think in a CIV strategic level it is quite fair. That doesn't mean I'm not as angry as you when SMAC advance reveal the cruiser hull and I'm left with a bunch of almost useless foil

Yeah, I see what your saying. But even if your just replacing(as opposed to updating) your old outdated forces with something new, it'd be nice to be able to do it in one fell swoop. Perhaps an additional option called replace, in addition to upgrade.

Would probably take a lot of hassle out of the game.

[Tiberius]

Adm.Naismith

Upgrade possibilities:

1. Major upgrades

Upgrade possibilities:
a) one-by-one
b) one-city/one-base (more expensive)
c) entire civ (very expensive)

Duration:
a) One turn in military bases (inside or outside cites)
b) Two turns for the rest of the units

After major upgrades units will lose 1 level of training/morale (maybe 2 outside mil. bases).

2. Minor upgrades
(less expensive than major upgrade)

Upgrade possibilities:
a) one-by-one
b) one-city/one-base
c) "troubled" area (border, war zone, etc) (my "obsession" )
d) entire civ (very expensive)

Duration:
one turn for all units, but outside military bases the upgrade will cost more (perhabs with 25%). No training/morale penalties.

What do you think? Will this be close to Firaxis' choices or not? If yes, will they give me a free copy of Civ3 ?

[Adm.Naismith]

quote: Will this be close to Firaxis' choices or not?

I'm not a Firaxis team member, so you aren't asking to me, are you?

quote: If yes, will they give me a free copy of Civ3?

Forget it!

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[Tiberius]

quote: Originally posted by Adm.Naismith on 12-13-2000 08:51 AM Forget it!

I know, I know, just dreamin...

But do you like it?

[Adm.Naismith]

quote: do you like it?

Yes, sounds good for me. For programming reason I only suggest to change the difference in time lenght of upgrade (from one to two turn) in greather costs (something on the line of 25% you mentioned).

That because keeping in memory the extra "waiting turn" needs unnecessary space and code. OTOH SMAC already use the shift+H for a 10 turns hold (fortify) on a unit, before flashing it again for order.

Of course I have no idea how do you think to define what units are near borders/hot area, but this is your loved concept, so I'll be happy to leave it to you

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant