Have you or will you ever play CtP2

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by Locutus

it's ridiculous and uncalled for to have such a humongous prejudice against a game (IMNSHO)?

You obviously haven't played with (recent) mods...

You can't expect everyone to like CtP2, but to dismiss (or bash - even worse) it would giving it a decent chance is rather stupid IMHO (the same goes for Civ3 and any other game BTW).

I couldn't agree more. I had a huge dislike against CTP2, based on all I had heard about it and Activison, over the past couple of years.

But playing the game recently with the mods (especially Cradle and Med Mod), I have changed my tune. While the game isn't perfect (which one is?), it is very playable, enjoyable, challenging, and feels like a civ game. I was expecting a totally alien playing experience. So I was pleasantly surprised how much I enjoyed it.

Playing any game does not have to be a zero-sum situation. It doesn't mean you have to play one game over the exclusion of all other games.

You can play Civ3 (for the graphics, animations, culture and AI), Civ 2 (for many of the great scenarios), CTP2 (modded for the army concept, Wonder movies, Public Works, better AI), EU2 (for its grand, elegant scope and strategy), and Age of Empires series (for its polished quality, fun, etc), and enjoy playing them ALL

After all, the game's the thing: No matter what the game, or who made it, if it provides a good, solid gaming experience, then it is worth your time.

On CTP2, Activision dropped the ball. No doubt about it.

But because of its customizability, some very talented people have put out some great mods. All the praise goes to them. Without the mods, I wouldn't be playing the game now.

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by hexagonian
As it stands now civ3 allows up to 16 civs. CTP2 can allow up to 32, plus it can allow cities that revolt to create new civs DURING THE COURSE OF THE GAME through the modification of a file handled at the player's end (this is not part of any official Mod or the default game, BTW - it is a suggested change to be made by a player).

hexagonian: How do you implement the 32 civs and new civs starting in a game of CTP2? What file do i edit?

I'm very excited over the idea that I can play a game on a huge map with 32 other civilizations. Will this concept interfer with any of the mods such as Cradle or Med Mod?

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Captain
where do I get the latest mod for that?

What about:

http://www.geocities.com/hexagonia/

for the latest version of Cradle. I think you can find there also Apolyton Pack, but I am shure. At least you can find Apolyton Pack in the Apolyton CTP2 DataBase.

http://wes.apolyton.net/

for the latest version of MedPack2
And of course my own page, there you can find GoodMod:

http://guehmann.bei.t-online.de/englishd.htm

By the way signatures are very useful aren't they.

Originally posted by Minuteman
You might want to check this website for ctp2 mods. This is where I found the ones that I used to use.

Than you shouldn't wonder why CTP2 does not meet your expectations. You can find here Apolyton Pack 7 or 8 month old. In the pasttime the developement went on. GoodMod wasn't released as Dale left us. It contains now a lot more than new goods. An improved AI some new slic files. By the way these files are also in Cradle and MedPack2. Dave made a lot of modifications to his Cradle. Reworked the strategies.txt. Yeah I copied the AI priorities into my file added player1's new goals and defined a lot more of my own goals.

Yeah there is a reason why we are talking about recent mods and not about half year old outdated mods.

So the links above should help you.

Originally posted by ADC
If that was in civ3 I would hate Civ3, the PW system just made me have to click thousands of times each round

You mean to have 200 up to 300 settlers is a better sollution. That happend Civ2 and that was the reason why I did not bought SMAC after I played a demo.

Originally posted by campmajor!
But the PW is one thing I did not like. I tend to forget to use it!

That is just a question of exercise.

Originally posted by player1
It's pity that CTP2 mod community looks a little desorganised (but not too much). I mean 3 mods, 3 diferent AIs, why they didn't combined their efforts to get one awesome AI.

If I take a look on the Civ3 files section , I have the feeling that the people there are less organized as in the CTP2 community - hundrets of files.

Actual we combined our efforts, otherwise Wes and Dave wouldn't use so much of my slic code. You wouldn't find the aggressive settings in Cradle, I just bumped two thread about the AI modification that are in Cradle, yesterday. And I am shure that most mods will include the terraforming AI. So we work together also if we create our own strategies.txt. I copied most stuff of my strategies.txt from Dave's, Wes' and your strategies.txt. I added also a bunch of new goals, and emailed my results to Wes. By the way that is my latest goal for the AI :

GOAL_BUILD_FORT

That is a nice one isn't.

Originally posted by Alexnm
I have to say that I played CTP2 modded (Apolyton Pack) and it was a very fine and balanced game, much better than the original version. But I still think that Civ3 is better... I don't know why.

Maybe you played a more than half an year old mod. If I compare pure Apolyton Pack and GoodMod in combination with Apolyton Pack than I have a notion. Even with Apolyton Pack you have AI cities that aren't well developed, not enough improvemnts not enough infrastucture. So you have bad bases for unit production. In the latest GoodMod version you have well developed AI cities, these cities are better production bases than my cities. You can see this also on the power graph. Before GoodMod I saw only one grap that went up. Now all the other graphs go up instead of the garph of my own civ.

Originally posted by Leonidas
You can play Civ3 (for the graphics, animations, culture and AI),

Not for the graphics I took resently a look on the resources.pcx I had to wonder if these graphics were really the ones that are displayed on the map. Even my button graphics of the dye good that I graped from a screenshot looks better.

-Martin

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Leonidas

hexagonian: How do you implement the 32 civs and new civs starting in a game of CTP2? What file do i edit?

I'm very excited over the idea that I can play a game on a huge map with 32 other civilizations. Will this concept interfer with any of the mods such as Cradle or Med Mod?

See this thread. It is question number 7. But I think that will only work with 28 opponents, but this should be enough.

-Martin

[Samudragupt]

28 - civs - WOW
But then again who wants to play against a Jamaican civ.

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann


See this thread. It is question number 7. But I think that will only work with 28 opponents, but this should be enough.

-Martin

Thanks for the link Martin - "only work with 28 opponents" - now there's an understatement (LOL)


Samudragupt: All the major civs are included - from Canadian to Spanish, from Roman to Cartheginian and everything in between.

I can't wait to make the changes - 28 civilizations in one game

I play both.

[Minuteman]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann


What about:

http://www.geocities.com/hexagonia/

for the latest version of Cradle. I think you can find there also Apolyton Pack, but I am shure. At least you can find Apolyton Pack in the Apolyton CTP2 DataBase.

http://wes.apolyton.net/

for the latest version of MedPack2
And of course my own page, there you can find GoodMod:

http://guehmann.bei.t-online.de/englishd.htm

By the way signatures are very useful aren't they.



Than you shouldn't wonder why CTP2 does not meet your expectations. You can find here Apolyton Pack 7 or 8 month old. In the pasttime the developement went on. GoodMod wasn't released as Dale left us. It contains now a lot more than new goods. An improved AI some new slic files. By the way these files

-Martin

Actually, I haven't played ctp2 in about 7 months, which is when I downloaded those mods I recommended. As far as going back to play the game again with the new mods you mentioned, I just might do that if I ever get a hankering to play the game again.

[Bloodaxe]

I picked up a ripped copy just after it was released to try it out. Played it twice then deleted it. That just about sums up my opinion of the game...

[ACooper]

Remind me again please. It's kind of fuzzy. What does this have to do with Civ 3?

[Minuteman]

Originally posted by ACooper
Remind me again please. It's kind of fuzzy. What does this have to do with Civ 3?

It's one of those "which is better" polls....standard comparison/contrast thread.

I guess a thread like this wouldn't be needed if Civ III was little easier to mod for. Not being a modder myself, I couldn't care less about it being hard-coded. However, it would have been interesting to see what some of the more talented Ctp2 modders would have been able to do if it wasn't.

After all, when I did play Ctp2, it was these guys that made playing that game even remotely bearable. Hopefully, Firaxis will keep these guys in mind whenever they get around to designing expansion packs for Civ III.

[The Rusty Gamer]

I'd love to know if anyone at Firaxis has had a decent go at the CTP series! C'mon Firaxis guys, level with us. You've at least looked at it haven't you? Admit it. ADMIT IT!

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Leonidas
hexagonian: How do you implement the 32 civs and new civs starting in a game of CTP2? What file do i edit?

I'm very excited over the idea that I can play a game on a huge map with 32 other civilizations. Will this concept interfer with any of the mods such as Cradle or Med Mod?

A small note - if you want to have the cities that revolt convert into splinter civs, make sure that the MaxNumber in userprofile.txt is no higher than 33, as this is the number of civs in the Cradle files. I believe that the number of civs in the Apolyton Pack and Med Mod are higher though. (WARNING - I have never tried the number that high, and since there is a limit of 28 civs in a game, this may not work either - a good compromise might be 24 normal civs and 4 splinter civs for a total of 28.)

Interesting results on this poll - Modded CTP2 and civ3 are running neck and neck...

And yes, the difficulty of truly modding civ3 is probably why this poll is showing up here - that and the reports of late game tedium due to the worker system vs PW and a half-patched group movement command in civ3 - issues that have already been addressed in the CTP setup.

[Leonidas]

MedMod v2.0:

Well, I started a game last night with 28 civs on a huge map. With all these civs, and with a map that has diverse terrain ranging from vast oceans, inland lakes and jungles, to polar ice caps and barren deserts, it is a rich, diverse, "living" world.

I sent out my ambassadors to explore some of the world and establish embassies with some of the other civs. Many of the AIs are at war with each other (each trying to gain more land). It was something for my ambassador to enter Viking territory, and find their cities being besieged by Russian armies and catapults; or to stumble across huge cities (15 size in 600 AD) of the Zulus, as they were engaged in brutal battles with the Phoenicians. . .

I have one city on an Isthmus, and every turn ships from all over the world sail past that city laden with diplomats, soldiers and trade goods that are bound for all parts of the unknown world. Many of the ships have very colourful sails. . .

So far I destroyed two civilizations in an early land grab, and now, with 10 cities I am consolidating and building up my infrastructure. I am in contact with 20 other civs, but there are still huge tracts of unexplored land, and still 5 unknown civs yet to be contacted.

After seeing the size of the map and the size of the some of the other civs, conquering the world will be very, very difficult, if not impossible (which is the way it should be). Now, I'll have to form some strategic alliances, sharpen my diplomatic skills, maintain a strong army, and push ahead with tech advances.

I can see in the decades ahead that a major world war (involving 2 dozen civilizations) is in the offing. . .

Cradle v1.2:

In Cradle Mod v1.2, the AI is maniacal. Try playing this mod on "hard" level or higher, and you are in for a severe challenge. Just trying to survive will be an accomplishment

Picture a dozen Tony Montanas running around yelling: "Say hello to my little friend", and you get the idea. . .

On a different note:

I went through the files last night in Med Mod v2. I noticed that it uses DiploMod v3.3. Is it possible to add "DiploMod v3.4" as well as the "FrenzyMod" into my current game without screwing it up?

Anyway, just to say thanks to all the modders. I'm looking forward to many more great changes. Hopefully, Firaxis will get some ideas from all this to add to later patches for Civ 3

[Changmai Beagle]

I'm playing Civ3 now, but lurking on CTP2 - I'll likely be back looking at the scenarios being developed. The Alexander scenario showed there is a lot of scenario potential in CTP2. Combined with the work of Dale, IW, Hex, BO, WW, MG et al there has been development of a real working game.

I like some aspects of both. But then, why did the Canadian chicken cross the road

To get to the middle

[exeter0]

Good call Changmai Beagle...

Although I am an Aussie so I don't get the joke on the Canadians!


I like both games too.. but I think we all had the expectation was that CIV3 would digest all of the great things in CTP2 and spit out CIV3 + CTP2 + 'a few more surprises'.

I think we got CIV 2.5 + a few moe surprise (elevated site, culture, animation & trade etc)


What I find disturbing in this debate is that the CIV3 biased are willing to bash CTP2 without really explaing why... pure emotive. Or have paradoxical criticisms like PW is a pain... (while surely there cannot be debate that managing hundreds of workers with the little unit management tools we have in CIV3 has to be a MUCH bigger pain).

On the other hand most people who lean towards CTP2 provide thought out comments and enumerate improvements over CIV3.

Don;t know what this means.. I just find it to be a very interesting observation. This is a good thread.

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by Changmai Beagle
I'm playing Civ3 now, but lurking on CTP2 - I'll likely be back looking at the scenarios being developed. The Alexander scenario showed there is a lot of scenario potential in CTP2. Combined with the work of Dale, IW, Hex, BO, WW, MG et al there has been development of a real working game.

Changmai Beagle: Yes that's how I started - I was reading the information about several of the major mods for CTP2 and it got me to thinking. . . so, I picked up the game real cheap and have been having fun trying out some of the mods.

Update:

I am currently playing CTP2 with the MedMod v2.0 and 28 civilizations. I added the "DiploMod v3.4" and the "FrenzyMod v1.04" within the current game. Everything works great, so these three mods work well together (although you have to install the FrenzyMod manually - very easy to do).

Basically, the DiploMod really fleshes out the diplomacy for all the AI's, giving them more realistic diplomatic dealings.

The FrenzyMod, as the name implies, really cranks up the AI aggressiveness (this is the same mod that is in the default Cradle Mod).

I installed both the Diplo and Frenzy mods during a current game, and there are no conflicts with them, and I have been able to continue my game.

Thus, the current game year is 1170 AD, and I have just eliminated another small civ, the Dutch. They had one single city remaining that plunged like a dagger into the ribs of my empire, so, using 2-12 unit armies, I "surgically" removed this blight. With all the defenses that a city in this game is capable of building, you need a lot of force and units to take a city. This Dutch city was a size 13 population with about 10 Phalanx/Bowmen defending. My first army attacked and was used to whittle down the defenders. Luckily, the Dutch had no catapults, or I would have been in a world of hurt.

I then retreated that first army (it was down to one unit out of its original twelve units), and then moved in with the second army to deliver the coup de grace. Sure enough, I took the city and the Dutch were eliminated.

It was at this point (after taking the Dutch city) that I installed both the Diplo and Frenzy Mods, and immediately noticed a difference. The AI is MORE aggressive.

I sent a slaver unit to steal some citizens from the Portugese, it got caught, and the Portugese immediately declared war on me. They have a huge empire and a strong navy, so this should be an interesting war.

Two things I need to watch out for:

1) build up a strong naval arm to counter the Portugese ships;

and

2) be careful about any alliances the Portugese might have. It would be very difficult taking on 2 or 3 civs at this point and still survive, especially with the FrenzyMod.

With 23 civilizations still in the game, I don't want to be ganged up on. Currently, I'm a strong middle power, but there are some very powerful civs (some of whom I have been trying to woo without much success) that could put a world of hurt on me if I damage my reputation too much.

Thus, my forces are preparing to go head-to-head with the Portugese Empire.

So let it be written, so let it be done. . .

[The Rusty Gamer]

Leonidas,

Where did you get Cradle 2.1 from? The version I've got is 1.3.

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by exeter0
Good call Changmai Beagle...

Although I am an Aussie so I don't get the joke on the Canadians!

exeter0: Thanks for your wise comments.

To your specific question: I think Changmai Beagle probably was implying that Canadians have a reputation for being moderate, of choosing the middle road rather than the extremes of one side over the other. Please correct me though, if I am wrong. . .

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by The Rusty Gamer
Leonidas,

Where did you get Cradle 2.1 from? The version I've got is 1.3.

The Rusty Gamer: LOL Thanks for catching that one. With all the mods, files etc that I have downloaded over the past few days for CTP2, I have inadvertently mixed up the version numbers.

You are VERY correct. The actual version of the Cradle Mod that I have is version 1.2.

Since you have version 1.3, your version is more up-to-date than mine.

So I think you know the next question I am about to ask:

Where did you get version 1.3?

[exeter0]

Thanx.. fence sitters in our speak.

I like it though... i think i'll use it!

[The Rusty Gamer]

Originally posted by Leonidas
Where did you get version 1.3?

Look in the CTP2 mods forum under the Cradle 1.2 thread. There's a link to the Hexagonia site which has a 1.3 version.

[Leonidas]

Thanks for your comments exeter0

The Ruster Gamer:

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

After a little hunting I found v1.3 of the Cradle Mod. I also found the latest versions of the DiploMod, versions 3.5 and 3.6.

These and other files can be found here:

http://www.geocities.com/hexagonia/ctp2.html

[Leonidas]

The War with Portugal

I installed the latest version of DiploMod 3.5, to see if there were any changes/differences.

My initial plan against Portugal was to fortify my Mongel armies behind the walls of my cities and let the Portugese throw themselves against my formidable defenses.

But it didn't work out that way. Portugal seemed to employ some sort of disease or plague because my men in the closest city to the Portugese, Xanadu, started yelling in agony and died where they stood.

Not knowing what devious device the Portugese had employed, I had no choice but to take the battle TO THEM.

Against my better judgement I decided to send one army against the Portugese city of Funcho. I just couldn't wait for the reinforcements I was bringing up, because I had no idea if the Portugese were going to be sending that plague again. Anyway, better to die in battle, then to die of disease.

So I marched my proud 12 unit army of veterans of previous campaigns onto the plain and attacked Funcho in a frontal assault.

It was worse than I had expected. Funcho was fortified with every defensive improvement and bonuses you can have. My troops were cut down without mercy. Finally, I called the retreat and managed to escape with several mounted archers and all of my seige weapons. But it wan't pretty. Out of an army of twelve units, I left 7 dead on the Plains of Funcho. The Portugese suffered no loses. . .

Oh, the humanity!

Only the sight of the battleground after the Battle of Cannae or the devastation of Napoleon's retreat from Russia can compare to the carnage that filled the Plains of Funcho. . .

Resigned to taking that city (I couldn't wait around to be hit by more disease), I waited this time until all my reinforcements had arrived. This time I fielded two 12-unit armies, both comprised of the finest foot soldiers, mounted archers and seige weapons that the coin of the realm could purchase.

This time I was going to use the one-two punch: go in with one army, severely maul the defenders, retreat, then move in with the second army to deliver the winning blow.

So I issued the call to attack: the first army moved in and there was terrible carnage and frightful sounds as both armies locked in deadly combat. My losses were frightful, so I called retreat and what was left of this army limped away.

I then sent in my second reserve army, and they attacked with wild abandon as men fell on both sides. When these soldiers fell, others took their place. Many magnificent mounted archers fell on this day.

But this second army could not prevail, and so I ordered another retreat, and these brave soldiers made their way to the rear.

I was now in a desperate situation. I had only enough reserves and remnants from the previously defeated armies to put together one last 12-unit army. So I banded them together and sent them in against an implacable foe.

The battle was terrible, but somehow my men managed to find the last bit of strength and valour and defeated the defenders and took the city.

After such a terrible day, I chose to burn the city to the ground, and sold all of its inhabitants into slavery. The Battle of Funcho was over.

But my losses were staggering: my once proud military force was decimated. There was not a single home in the towns or cities throughout the Mongel Empire that did not feel the loss of fallen sons. . .

"Varus! Give me back my legions. . ."

In other developments, my north-eastern naval force engaged the Portugese Navy in the Battle of Ulan Bator. After a bloody battle my navy was defeated and the Portugese made good their escape.

To counter the Portugese naval threat I am moving my southern naval task force northward. I have also ordered my naval yards to build a new type of naval vessel that should be more than a match for the Portugese ships.

The total tally so far:

Portugese Losses: Men - 12; Ships - 3; Cities - one

Mongel Losses: Men - 31; Ships - 4

I will now have to re-group and consider my military options. Clearly, I will have to re-build my military forces and navy. I will also try to form a military alliance with another Civ or two.

In the meantime, I will press ahead in tech development and find out what the heck the Portugese were using against me. . .

[The Rusty Gamer]

There was no I like both games option. Can't vote therefore.

[Harovan]

Ain't it time to move this thread in the CtP2 forum? This whole poll is IMHO nothing but .

I gave CtP2 a fair chance, and reinstalled and played it in the last 2 evenings, with the Cradle 1.2 mod. I got it running, though it looks awful, in 2 languages, almost unreadable. Here are my impressions:

The AI has not much changed, sorry, but it is still incredibly dumb. I started a "hard" game, all else standard. I have stacks of 3 barbarians fleeing from my one wounded slinger, I have other civs declaring war but not attacking, I have move delays of up to 3 minutes (heavily varies) in 6000BC, and the interface is not much better than the one in Civ3. After playing Civ3 for 3 months, even with the pre-patch problems, I was surprised, that there can be an ancient era without any adrenaline kick. Early game tedium. Settlers, or nomads to be precise, to be build in 40-50 turns (10-15 in Civ3). Compared with Civ3 and it's aggressive AI, it was boring. The diplomacy has a lot of options, most of which are useless, because the AI does care still less about treaties than in Civ3. Trade has a great interface (compared with the poor one in Civ3), but it's not worth the efford due to piracy. The maps are ugly, compared with those in Civ3 (I'm not talking about graphics but geographical correctness). Intro and wonder movies are nice, but I skip them anyway. Public works have the huge disadvantage, that you can't rush a project by putting more work force in it (i.e. more workers). There is no opportunity to take influence to a city's food/production/gold output by moving citizens to other tiles. War seems to be the only solution to solve diplomatic problems, and the only option to save me from the tedium. But it's not a wargame.

Please don't think that I want to rant about CtP2 or put it down. I played and enjoyed it about 8 months last year. I reinstalled it now, patched and modded it, just to check how I would like it after my experiences with Civ3. I think, this was the reason of this thread.

It was disappointing.

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Ain't it time to move this thread in the CtP2 forum? This whole poll is IMHO nothing but .

Spam it ain't, but in the CtP2 forum what would be the point?

I gave CtP2 a fair chance: It was disappointing.

Thankyou for at least thinking about it

[Grumbold]

Originally posted by exeter0
What I find disturbing in this debate is that the CIV3 biased are willing to bash CTP2 without really explaing why... pure emotive. Or have paradoxical criticisms like PW is a pain... (while surely there cannot be debate that managing hundreds of workers with the little unit management tools we have in CIV3 has to be a MUCH bigger pain).

Workers vs PW is one of the debates that will never be resolved. All the Apolyton polls I've seen have always come out no more than 55/45 in favour of either system. They both have their good and bad points but this isn't the thread to rehash them in

[The Rusty Gamer]

Wouldn't it be good to have an option in Civ 3 to play it either with or without PW? Or to somehow be able to mod it?

[Grumbold]

I think too many systems are geared to workers in Civ III. They don't just do the improvements but represent prisoners and ways of moving population of different cultures.