Have you or will you ever play CtP2

[Leonidas]

Ain't it time to move this thread in the CtP2 forum? This whole poll is IMHO nothing but .

Why are you bothered by different viewpoints on other games (such as CTP2) by other players?

I gave CtP2 a fair chance, and reinstalled and played it in the last 2 evenings, with the Cradle 1.2 mod. I got it running, though it looks awful, in 2 languages, almost unreadable

It sounds like you didn't do the install correctly by mixing up the different language versions.

The AI has not much changed, sorry, but it is still incredibly dumb. I started a "hard" game, all else standard. I have stacks of 3 barbarians fleeing from my one wounded slinger, I have other civs declaring war but not attacking,

Sorry, but again it sounds like you either didn't do a correct install of Cradle 1.2 or you left out some files. The AI is incredibly aggressive. In my games, the AI attacked, attacked, attacked. . .

I have move delays of up to 3 minutes (heavily varies) in 6000BC, and the interface is not much better than the one in Civ3.

Move delays of 3 minutes? Are you serious? Your computer must either be on the verge of a breakdown, or you are playing CTP2 on a 386. CTP2's interface is very slick, with it all done in a gold, marble, ivory finish.

In 6000 BC the turns should wiz by. I would suggest either correctly re-installing the mod, or get your computer looked at.

Early game tedium.

ALL civ games have early game tedium. It takes time to get one's civ started.

The diplomacy has a lot of options, most of which are useless, because the AI does care still less about treaties than in Civ3. Trade has a great interface (compared with the poor one in Civ3), but it's not worth the efford due to piracy

Earlier, you mentioned that the AI is dumb, then you mention that the AI carries out piracy of your trade routes. Doesn't sound dumb to me. Like Civ 3, you have to WORK at diplomacy to get the civs to accommodate your wishes.

The maps are ugly, compared with those in Civ3 (I'm not talking about graphics but geographical correctness).

So, the maps look good graphically, but are ugly due to geographical correctness? Are the maps in Civ 3 geographically correct? I have seen NO probelms with the CTP2 maps. They are very well done. You can even have the option of bending the map so you can transit the world from North to South, or East to West, basically circling the globe.

Again, are Civ 3's maps geographically correct?

Sorry, but are you SURE you're playing the same game as I am?

). Intro and wonder movies are nice, but I skip them anyway.

The intro movie is very inspiring. In addition, when I spend hours trying to build a Wonder, it is VERY gratifying to see a great movie. It's the little touches like these that help round out a civ game. The movies add polish and inspiration to the game. . .

Public works have the huge disadvantage, that you can't rush a project by putting more work force in it (i.e. more workers). There is no opportunity to take influence to a city's food/production/gold output by moving citizens to other tiles.

Are you not aware that in the city screen you CAN move your workers to perform MANY other specialist functions than just growing food? You should either READ the manual or a good strategy guide. It seems that you do not understand the game's play mechanics.

War seems to be the only solution to solve diplomatic problems, and the only option to save me from the tedium. But it's not a wargame.

This is simply not true. As in Civ 3 you have to really work at diplomacy. The AIs will not fall all over themselves to give you what you want. The AI has been tweaked in Cradle to be TOUGHER to beat. And a tougher AI is not dumb. . .

As in Civ 3, you can go to war, but that is your option. I have played a couple of games whereby, after mnay years of wooing a particular civ, that it warmed to me and eventually wanted to ally with me.

Please don't think that I want to rant about CtP2 or put it down. I played and enjoyed it about 8 months last year. I reinstalled it now, patched and modded it, just to check how I would like it after my experiences with Civ3. I think, this was the reason of this thread.

Thanks for your opinion. That's why there are all kinds of different games out there for people to play. But from the sounds of your comments, you either didn't install the Cradle Mod correctly, some of the files were corrupted, or you are using a warez version of the game. Even though you mention that you played the game before, you don't seem to understand the game mechanics to play it correctly.

If Cradle was not to your liking, then I would suggest trying the Apolyton Pack or Med Mod. The AI isn't as tough.

Final comment:

There have always been two things that irritated me about the civ series:

1) lots of workers to move around; and

2) hundreds of military units to painfully move around the map.

In CTP2, with Public Works and the Army concept, these two problems have disappeared. Now, I am enjoying building up my civilization without all the tedium and clickfests. Now I can concentrate on strategy, diplomacy and managing my empire instead of wearing out my finger and mouse in an endless series of clickfests. . .

In addition, without the hundreds (and thousands) of workers mindlessly running around, my computer turns go faster (even when playing on a huge map with 28 civilizations)!

Of course, there are many people who LOVE to move around hundreds of workers each and every turn. All the power to them

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Leonidas
Why are you bothered by different viewpoints on other games (CTP2) by other players?

I am not, but your strategy discussions are off topic. How about discussing Civ3 strategies in a CtP2 thread?

Originally posted by Leonidas
It sounds like you didn't do the install correctly by mixing up the different language versions.

Cradle has different language versions? Wow! Sorry then, please give me a link to the German version.

Originally posted by Leonidas
Sorry, but again it sounds like you either didn't do a correct install of Cradle 1.2 or you left out some files. The AI is incredibly aggressive. In my games, the AI attacked, attacked, attacked. . .

In my game, it attacked one warrior, thus declaring war. I waited 1000 years for the attack, but there was none. Then I went to bed.

The 3 barbarians running away from one wounded slinger were also quite stupid.

Originally posted by Leonidas
Move delays of 3 minutes? Are you serious? Your computer must either be on the verge of a breakdown, or you are playing CTP2 on a 386. CTP2's interface is very slick, with it all done in a gold, marble, ivory finish.

Are you sure you learned to read? I wrote up to 3 minutes, and that it varied heavily. Every now and then, the game was frozen for a few minutes, I thought it crashed, but it always returned properly. I don't have the newest computer, but a PII/450 should suffice.

Originally posted by Leonidas
ALL civ games have early game tedium. It takes time to get one's civ started.

No. In Civ3 you have to rush, rush, rush. In CtP2 you have to wait, wait, wait.

Originally posted by Leonidas
Earlier, you mentioned that the AI is dumb, then you mention that the AI carries out piracy of your trade routes. Doesn't sound dumb to me. Like Civ 3, you have to WORK at diplomacy to get the civs to accommodate your wishes.

Yes, when I have a stop piracy agreement with a civ, and this civ (being "gracious") pirates my routes with a ship and my warship is one tile away so I can see it, this AI is super-dumb and the "diplomacy" worthless.

Originally posted by Leonidas
So, the maps look good graphically, but are ugly due to geographical correctness? Are the maps in Civ 3 geographically correct? I have seen NO probelms with the CTP2 maps. They are very well done. You can even have the option of bending the map so you can transit the world from North to South, or East to West, basically circling the globe.

I don't call a map with one continent, screw-like winding 1,5 times round the globe a good map. As seen in CtP2 last year. The clima zones are not well balanced. Rivers do very very rarely fork in realty, on CtP2 maps they do it often, sometimes forming checkerboard-like monsters. At one side of a mountain region you have usually a region of dry plains or even deserts, due to lack of rain. Very well simulated in Civ3, totally missed in CtP2. Plus a lot more.

Originally posted by Leonidas
The intro movie is very inspiring. In addition, when I spend hours trying to build a Wonder, it is VERY gratifying to see a great movie. It's the little touches like these that help round out a civ game. The movies add polish and inspiration to the game. . .

The intro gets boring after the 3rd time. Every intro does, no offense. As for wonders... What are you doing in these hours you spend? If I build a wonder, I do it with a few clicks and hours of waiting.

Originally posted by Leonidas
Are you not aware that in the city screen you CAN move your workers to perform MANY other specialist functions than just growing food? You should either READ the manual or a good strategy guide. It seems that you do not understand the game's play mechanics.

Thank you for at least not calling me dumb. I wonder how I could play the game for 8 months, not understanding how it works. I know, that I can make citizens specialists, after I discovered the appropriate tech. Very helpful when building ancient wonders.

Originally posted by Leonidas
If Cradle was not to your liking, then I would suggest trying the Apolyton Pack or Med Mod. The AI isn't as tough.

Alas, too late. And do you mean the AI is still dumber?

Originally posted by Leonidas
Now I can concentrate on strategy, diplomacy and managing my empire instead of wearing out my finger and mouse in an endless series of clickfests. . .

Enjoy, I don't mind. Seems I will see your histories in the CtP2 forum soon.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Leonidas
But from the sounds of your comments, you either didn't install the Cradle Mod correctly, some of the files were corrupted, or you are using a warez version of the game.

Sorry, this one I missed to comment. I never use warez versions of games. I have a regular copy of the German localization of CtP2.

And the sense of my post was, that I did enjoy CtP2 last year, but if I compare it with Civ3, CtP2 being modded or not, Civ3 is better even out of the box. My opinion, sorry, but it's worth as much as yours.

[Leonidas]

Sir Ralph:

LOL Thanks for the comments. I would never call anyone dumb.

You only gave very brief comments initially, so it was unclear as to the specific examples you were aware of.

Personally, I don't defend any game or game company. I only make comments about the games I find fun to play.

There are also many interesting and fun things about Civ3, so I am still hoping that the game will get better with each patch.

The only thing I can think of is the problems you have been experiencing may be due to corrupt files, not installing all the files needed, incompatibility of file versions, etc

You need to install both Modswapper and the official patch before you install Cradle.

I can see where having the wrong files, etc would really ruin your enjoyment of the game. I would probably feel the same way you do.

Regarding non-English versions of CTP2:

"Q31 I downloaded a mod. Unfortunatly my CTP2 version is not in English language. Now I get a bunch of error messages if I try to run the mod. How can I fix it?

A31 As you have a non English version there are some files not in the correct folder. To solve this problem go to the ..\ctp2_data\english\gamedata\ folder and copy or move all files of the according mod to the according folder of your language. Another folder to check out is the ..\ctp2_data\english\uidata\layouts\ folder. These file here are not essential, but they improve the user interface a little bit."


Personally, after trying CTP2 with the mods, I am surprised how much I like the game. Really. I expected to play the game for a few hours and then delete it.

Yet, I find it incredibly addicting.

I am still new to CTP2 (yes I play Civ3 as well), but there are many concepts in the game that have improved gameplay (at least for me) for a civ game.

If you are still having trouble running the game, I would suggest obtaining expert help by going to the CTP2 forum here at Apolyton. If there is a solution to the problems you have been experiencing, you should be able to find it there. . .

Thanks for your comments Sir Ralph.

Have fun!

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


Sorry, this one I missed to comment. I never use warez versions of games. I have a regular copy of the German localization of CtP2.

And the sense of my post was, that I did enjoy CtP2 last year, but if I compare it with Civ3, CtP2 being modded or not, Civ3 is better even out of the box. My opinion, sorry, but it's worth as much as yours.

The problem then, may be due to the mixing of German and English files when you install the mods. See my post above regarding German game fixes.

Your opinion is VERY valuable Sir Ralph. I also enjoy playing Civ3. Isn't it great to live in a world where we have so many choices?

My comments in this thread are not about CTP2 being better than Civ3 or vice versa. They are meant only to inform other players about another game, that they too, might find enjoyable.

CTP2 is not perfect. There are still many areas that could be improved upon. But CTP2 with the proper mods applied to it is a very enjoyable playing experience.

We can play one game or several, each in their own way providing something unique to the playing experience.

[Harovan]

No offense was taken, Leonidas. Enjoy both games, as I do too. By the way, I did this Q31/A31 copy thing, after I got the error messages. This was why I meant in my initial post, that texts were almost unreadable, because both languages were mixed. May be if I give it another try, I try to install it in English, I have seen such an option.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Cradle has different language versions? Wow! Sorry then, please give me a link to the German version.

Cradle is English only. The game rewrote the tech tree/units/buildings/wonders not because of a weakness in the original tree, but because that is where my interest lies (Ancient/Medieval) so all of the additions will only be reflected in English.

Sorry, I do not speak German so I cannot translate all of the relevant files...

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Are you sure you learned to read? I wrote up to 3 minutes, and that it varied heavily. Every now and then, the game was frozen for a few minutes, I thought it crashed, but it always returned properly. I don't have the newest computer, but a PII/450 should suffice.

The readme covers this, though not as clearly as it should (the pause occurs when a player or the AI gets a unit or advance from a goody hut). The pause will vary on different systems - from a few seconds to 2-3 minutes, and will be eliminated over time as goody huts are cleaned out.

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Yes, when I have a stop piracy agreement with a civ, and this civ (being "gracious") pirates my routes with a ship and my warship is one tile away so I can see it, this AI is super-dumb and the "diplomacy" worthless.

If you are running near the bottom of the Powergraph, then good diplomatic relationships will be very hard to maintain, and you will be treated to backstabbing AIs. For me, at least, this is good, because it keeps me on my toes - it also reflects history, which is littered with broken treaties. And as a human player, it is too easy to pull the same stunt on the AI and then pat yourself on the back for your perceived cleverness.

At the same time, I have had success with Diplomacy from a bottom position - but the rule remains that you have to deal in a position of strength to get what you want.

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
No. In Civ3 you have to rush, rush, rush. In CtP2 you have to wait, wait, wait.

...preference in expectations and playing styles - plus the Cradle CTP game is for 1300 turns, so the timetable is slower.

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Thank you for at least not calling me dumb. I wonder how I could play the game for 8 months, not understanding how it works. I know, that I can make citizens specialists, after I discovered the appropriate tech. Very helpful when building ancient wonders.

Again this is a preference issue - since the structure of both games are different.

I will say this much, if a player prefers a particular way of doing something in a game, that is a valid discussion point - but at the same time it does not necessarily make one game superior over another. I already know that I have issues with civ3 because of the way the game is structured (PW vs workers, stacking and armies, and so forth) - at the same time, if a player wants to micromanage hundreds of workers and play a game that has a limited grouping feature for units (and thus increase micromanaging) then civ3 is the game to play for them.

Do I want a game that forces late-game tedium, because of the sheer number of tasks I would have to do on a turn-by-turn basis? Probably not, and based on the discussions occuring on this forum, this feeling is running strong...

For me, the preference issues are just as important as the AI. I look at civ3 and see a pretty good AI, but at the same time, I see a host of preference issues that would ultimately detract from my enjoyment of the game. On balance, at least for me, I enjoy CTP2 Modded more because of the entire package presented, and plus the game allows me the option to easily modify elements of the game and the AI.

As it has already been pointed out, there are positives to both games - at the same time there are weaknesses too.

If you do not like CTP2 (and Cradle) - as Wombat pointed out - at least, 'thanks for trying it'

[Leonidas]

your strategy discussions are off topic.

I'll try to make them brief. But my purpose in writing them was to try out some of the different mods and combinations of them.

I figured there might be one or two people who might be interested in following the discussion

[Harovan]

Hexagonian, I did not want to express, that I don't like CtP2, but that I prefer Civ3 since it went out and the worst flaws were fixed. And I am sure your Cradle mod is a really great work, because out of the box CtP2 is ridiculously easy, but at the same time (piracy, diplomacy, pollution) annoying. Despite this fact, I play it every now and then (though I played it the first time modded). But there will be no way back. Like CivII and SMAC, I just play it to remember the good ole times .

About the worker vs. PW thing, I am aware, that there are different points of view. PW is generally a good idea, but it gives no opportunity to rush a work by adding more workforce. And, honest, these workers in Civ3 with different nationalities are a funny thing. To capture enemy workers is fun too. If you automate them reasonably in the late game, their handling is not so tedious, as there is (far from cleaning pollution) not much left to do.

[exeter0]

[SIZE=1] About the worker vs. PW thing, I am aware, that there are different points of view. PW is generally a good idea, but it gives no opportunity to rush a work by adding more workforce. And, honest, these workers in Civ3 with different nationalities are a funny thing. To capture enemy workers is fun too. If you automate them reasonably in the late game, their handling is not so tedious, as there is (far from cleaning pollution) not much left to do.

r u aware that CTP2 provides a Production/Public Works slider?

If you want to rush public works.. just temporarily move the slider towards PW for a few turns. You can do the same for Commerce/Scientific resource.

I saw your post earlier about how you had recently tried Cradle on CTP2... to be honest I found your observations confounding. I could not relate to any of your concerns (and I love CIV3). At the time though I couldn;t think of a good response.

I've woken this morning to find that Leonidas and Hexagonian have respnded appropriately... I couldn;t have expressed their responses better.


As for making CIV a better game... a good place to start would be to give Hexagonian a job!

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Captain
haven't yet.
if it's less than $25, I might pick it up. know of a good place that still has it?
also, doesn't it need to be modded to be decent?
where do I get the latest mod for that?

Amazon is selling copies for $19.95 and you even get to choice between the English, Spanish, French, or German editions. The game is quite good out of the box if you play MP but to enjoy single player you need to install one of the free mods which can be downloaded right here at Apolyton.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
No offense was taken, Leonidas. Enjoy both games, as I do too. By the way, I did this Q31/A31 copy thing, after I got the error messages. This was why I meant in my initial post, that texts were almost unreadable, because both languages were mixed. May be if I give it another try, I try to install it in English, I have seen such an option.

Are you trying to play a saved game that was started before the mod? I've seen similiar things to what you are discribing happen when people try to mixed unmodded saved games with the modded engine. The two are simply uncompatiable; you need to start a new game and then you won't have problems like this.
If you are not trying to restarted an old saved game then you can try the English version of the game, download the Activision patch & the Modswapper utility, then just follow the directions to install the mod. It's that easy. You're one of the few people I have heard that has had a problem.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by ACooper
Remind me again please. It's kind of fuzzy. What does this have to do with Civ 3?

We are comparing the opinions of various Civ3 players about the relative merits of each of these games. I for one would like to see Civ3 MP look alot like CTP2 MP. The interface was so easy to use and well laid out; Civ3 MP could learn alot from CTP2.

[Captain]

Thank you to everyone! You've all been very helpful. I've been hiding in the civ 3 stories section for a while so I didn't notice I had gotten all these replies til today.

I'll have a look at picking up CtP2 sometime very soon and seeing what it's like. I've heard good things about it but never bothered to get it before. You've convinced me that if Civ 3 was worth shelling out for, CtP 2 probably is too. The mod installation look kindof complicated but I'll give it a whirl when I get CtP2.

Not sure I want to get addicted to any new games at this time though... I was almost glad I didn't get hooked on civ 3. Apolyton is enough of an addiction.

Cheers!

[belchingjester]

because my antiquated PC couldn't hack CTP1!
I tried hard with CTP1, but I just couldn't deal with it on my P200 with 128MB RAM. From the sounds of it, the SLIC scripting language provides lots of benefits.

I recall that I liked the stacked movement, but there were frustrations with the upper limit.

My new PCs can hack Civ3, etc...
So dumb question - does CTPII blow CTPI out of the water? (i.e. should I go and pick up a cheap copy, or should I play the copy of CTPI I already have?)

Mods can definitely make the difference - that may be what would push me up to CTP2.
Hope this isn't too OT.

-belchingjester

[exeter0]

belchingjester: CTP2 definitely definitely offers a lot more than CTP1.

This is obviously a subjective statement but I personally find CTP2 more immersive than CTP1 or the CIV's. (Mind you.. I am referring to CTP2 + Mods... I would not recommend CTP2 out of the box). Cradle + Frenzy is fun and challenging.

You may have read this and that criticism about CTP2 like it takes too many turns to research techs etc. But the beauty of CTP2 is that you have an excellent editor where you can tweak all game rules to your taste.

But it will be interesting to get your opinion after playing CTP2... as you would have played CIV3 first then played CTP2.

Personally am a very frustrated CIV/CTP player at the moment... I play CIV3 and I miss CTP2's stacked combat, AI, terrain micro/macro management and broader tech, terrain improvements, and government options etc.

But when I play CTP2 I miss culture and elevated unit vision (I would say unit animations as well... but since CIV3 runs so slow I usually have these turned off anyway.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by exeter0
r u aware that CTP2 provides a Production/Public Works slider?

If you want to rush public works.. just temporarily move the slider towards PW for a few turns. You can do the same for Commerce/Scientific resource.

So I can build rails over a mountain in 1 turn by adjusting the slider? No. And that was what I meant. No need to teach me to use the interface.

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
So I can build rails over a mountain in 1 turn by adjusting the slider? No. And that was what I meant. No need to teach me to use the interface.

No, but you can build rails over mountains by opening tileimp.txt and adjusting the correct number.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
No, but you can build rails over mountains by opening tileimp.txt and adjusting the correct number.

No, I don't mean I want to cheat. Mostly it's fine to wait a few turns for an improvement. But sometimes I want to rush something in one turn, e.g. a fortress in an upcoming war. In Civ3 I may use not 1 worker, but may be 4 or 6. In CtP2 I can do what in this case?

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
No, I don't mean I want to cheat. Mostly it's fine to wait a few turns for an improvement. But sometimes I want to rush something in one turn, e.g. a fortress in an upcoming war. In Civ3 I may use not 1 worker, but may be 4 or 6. In CtP2 I can do what in this case?

For the record, cheating and modding is not the same.

But if you want this sort of thing, you could write up some piece of SLIC code for it, allowing you to build something faster if you're willing to pay more PW. In CtP2 you should think big though, not small (micro-management), like in Civ3. You can't rush a single tile easily in CtP2 (by default) but you *can* save up PW and rush an entire railway (e.g. from one city to the next), which in Civ3 is only possible if you have a LOT of workers.

[Raion]

I always missed messages in CTP2, and I soon got tired of it.
Maybe its all right, but I soon did not play it anymore!

I like moving workers around, giving orders to move here and there, and soldiers, but again that's part of the game of CIVIII and previous version.

If you want to start a war, or be in a war, then do the work, it a little like real life, real reality, not just a game, but a freaky adventure, -- that's CIV III. Same as previous versions.

An experience, not just a game -- that CIVIII.
Virtual reality without the virtual reality, a game but not a game, a thrill a turn, the agony of defeat, the thrill of the victory, the not knowing what's going to happen next.

CTP2 never provided that, at least, to me.

I still may try to play it again someday, but I probably will still miss the messages, 5 turns later, I begin to build something else, because the other facility was already built, but then, one had to remember when it would be built, and one had to actually find and see the message when it was finally built, or just miss it.

I grew tired of doing that.

[exeter0]

True in CTP2 you can change the no of turns to 'build a railroad thru mountains'... but I actually think it is not in the spirit of the game to put 8 workers on a tile to build a terrain improvement.

It is like suggesting that if we put 10,000 workers on it we could rebuild the World Trade Centre in 10 years... If we resourced 100,000 workers it would take 1... If we resourced 1,000,000 workers it would take only....

There is diminishing returns in over utilisation of labour. I think CTP2 models this well.

[Harovan]

But if you want this sort of thing, you could write up some piece of SLIC code for it, allowing you to build something faster if you're willing to pay more PW. In CtP2 you should think big though, not small (micro-management), like in Civ3.

This would be a good solution.

But Civ3 with workers is still more scalable. Usually I do have lots of (captured) workers, so masses don't matter. And after I built the basic improvements, I automate (Shift-A) the workers anyway. Pre 1.17 they did this half good (due to the 2-workers-cap), now they do it fine.

I'd like to see an Automated-PW-SLIC code though

[Harovan]

Originally posted by exeter0
True in CTP2 you can change the no of turns to 'build a railroad thru mountains'... but I actually think it is not in the spirit of the game to put 8 workers on a tile to build a terrain improvement.

It is like suggesting that if we put 10,000 workers on it we could rebuild the World Trade Centre in 10 years... If we resourced 100,000 workers it would take 1... If we resourced 1,000,000 workers it would take only....

There is diminishing returns in over utilisation of labour. I think CTP2 models this well.

In November 1941 almost all citizens of Moscow, including women and older children, digged anti-tank trenches ("fortresses") in a few weeks. A real mass efford, but they made it, and the German tanks were stopped.

In CtP2 they'd have punched through, no mass efford possible there.

EDIT: We are talking not about a building, but about improving a tile. That's worth 100x100 miles. You can have 100 million people working in that area.

[exeter0]

Oh come on Sir Ralph!...

Moscow 1941 was a lot more complicated than that. In fact, Moscow 1941 supports my argument. The Germans literally stopped at the gates of Moscow on Hitler's orders to wait out the winter.

This gave the Russians a whole 4-8 months to prepare. It's not as if they put up barricades in just a few weeks!

At Stalingrad they didn't need to buld defences because the City itself became a crumbling fortress and made it impossible for German armour to negotiate and defend themselves.

But thinking about it.. with Leningrad you may have a point... (but they had 14 months to rpepare for a siege!)

So working with your point.. maybe in CIV type games... we need to have partial bonuses for pregressively completed improvements.

You don;t have to finish a whole fortress to receive some defensive value. I doubt hastily constructed defenses built by old women and children in 2-6 weeks would qualify for the games intent of a defense.

In building your railroad.. you need professional surveyers, engineers etc. Not much point having 2,000,000 women and children on the work chain if they don;t know where to hammer a pin or lay a sleeper (or blow a railway line over a mountain).

[exeter0]

While I enjoy the ability to throw as many workers you like onto a tile (sometimes I will through 16 resources on 1 tile... 3-5 to build a road, 4-6 to build a mine and 3- 5 to build a railroad). To clear all that annoying jungle I just have piles of workers decimating the land)...

But I am not sure that it is the spirit of the game to do this. In the interest of game balance it would probably be better to have a limit of 4 workers working on any given improvement on any given tile at a time.

Of course this would annoy us all... but therein lies the flaw in this aspect of CIV3's game system.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by exeter0
Oh come on Sir Ralph!...

Moscow 1941 was a lot more complicated than that. In fact, Moscow 1941 supports my argument. The Germans literally stopped at the gates of Moscow on Hitler's orders to wait out the winter.

I bow before your outstanding knowledge of history .

[exeter0]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


I bow before your outstanding knowledge of history .

That is a cop out reply .

I wanted to dispel the logic in your post because I think it will mislead readers who are looking at this thread wondering if they should give CTP2 a go.

This is an important issue for me 'cause I think CTP2 has many things to offfer. I genuinely think that some of the concepts in CTP2 would make CIV 4 and beyond a better game.

The more people that try CTP2 + MODS and realise this.. will also post on these forums and hopefully Firaxis will take our points into consideration.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by exeter0
That is a cop out reply .

It is a reply to avoid a senseless off-topic discussion.

I could go, open my Zhukov "Thoughts and Memories" and scan a few photos of digging women and children for you, but it's 1am here and I'd better go to bed. I'm sure you find the appropriate photos in the web. And it's simply ridiculous to believe, that Hitler stopped his poor armies only due to winter. "Hey guys, stop it now, or you will get a cold!" There must have been something else. Heavily entrenched Russian forces perhaps?

Good night!

[exeter0]

He stopped at the gates because:

1.

You are right... it was off topic.. but I was careful to relate back to CIV/CTP2...

I think you raised the analogy!