Does the AI knows about cultural flipping before it occurs?

Alex · February 18, 2002, 08:51

Here's what happened to me on my most recent game.

I was playing as the English. France founded Grenoble on a very attractive place, before I could send my own settler there. But I surrounded Grenoble with three or four cities, leaving it in the middle of my culturally rich empire.

Then I saw something strange: swordsmen started to get out of Grenoble, trespassing my borders. I thought: hmm, Joan is getting irked. Here comes a war.

Guess what? On the very next turn, I received a message about Grenoble reverting to my culture. I accepted it... just to see what would happen.

It happened. France declared war against me and their swordsmen quickly took the city back, and I kept wondering: does the AI knows about culture flipping before it occurs?

What do you think?

kailhun · February 18, 2002, 10:30

I've noticed that with Ai-cities near my borders the AI stations most of it's units on the tiles around the city. They usually take a little walk, but end up on one of the tiles. This even if the city isn't about the flip.

Robert

LaRusso · February 18, 2002, 10:37

perhaps the city flipped BECAUSE the units got out of it

Alex · February 18, 2002, 13:25

Quote:

Originally posted by LaRusso
perhaps the city flipped BECAUSE the units got out of it

That would be so... typical of an AI...

"Let's take our swordsmen to do some exercise outside the city."
"But, sir... there are rumours..."
"What rumours? It's just some exercise!"
...

"Sir... our citizens in Grenoble want to join the English Empire... They have overthrown our governor... and since there was no police there..."
"What? Let's take the city back! Who had that stupid idea of exercises, anyway?"
"Hmrf..."

Pius Popprasch · February 19, 2002, 06:13

The AI probably knows also the dice-rolls before a battle. If they are bad they will not attack. That explains part of its superiority.

Zachriel · February 19, 2002, 06:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexnm
That would be so... typical of an AI...

"Let's take our swordsmen to do some exercise outside the city."
"But, sir... there are rumours..."
"What rumours? It's just some exercise!"
...

"Sir... our citizens in Grenoble want to join the English Empire... They have overthrown our governor... and since there was no police there..."
"What? Let's take the city back! Who had that stupid idea of exercises, anyway?"
"Hmrf..."

That would be so... typical of people...
(e.g. King of France 1789)

Taxidopolis · February 19, 2002, 07:41

Alex, it's not when the units wander around that gets me worried - they go on patrol anyways - it's when the workers stand around idle with shovels in their hands chatting to each other about the weather or whatever. Especially in the early game when they could be building roads, irrigating etc. This has happened enough to me now to recognise that the AI is either waiting on the excuse of a war to get the units busy and put the workers safe or is expecting a culture flip and is keeping the workers out of the city for safety sake.

I've never had the AI declare war on me after losing a city to me via culture though and the attitude thingy doesn't seem to change either.

Also fishy, but no real surprise, is the fact that the AI when invading by sea makes a bee-line for the weakest defended city on my land. Hey-ho, it's one way of suckering them in ;-)

Alex · February 19, 2002, 08:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Taxidopolis

I've never had the AI declare war on me after losing a city to me via culture though and the attitude thingy doesn't seem to change either.

Well, I was playing with the new 1.17f patch, if that helps. From my experience, I could say that the AI's attitude tends to fluctuate wildly during the game. What puzzles me the most is the fact that France is considered a non-militaristic civ and more prone to commerce and peaceful relationships.

There may be another explanation: since the new patch has increased the level of aggressiveness, and considering how the AI always seems to know your military power, the French may have thought: this city will flip; let's park our units outside the city and then take it back; no matter if we have to declare war against the English, because they have an average military.

Not that I'm complaining...

Taxidopolis · February 19, 2002, 19:15

Alex, I've played only one game so far with the new patch to get a feel for the changes, which were good, and am starting again at Chieftain level. By chance just this sort of thing you mention accurred in this first game...suddenly the workers down tools, units start to dander about as if on holiday, and then the city flipped. No war, although I did put them out of their misery shortly after this

Also by chance it was me French they English, mirror image of your own game. As I say it seemed similar to AI behaviour pre-patch but I'll keep an eye out for similar stuff and let you know if war happens at higher levels. What were you on, Monarch or something thereabouts ? The AI does seem more macho with the latest patch so maybe there's a level dependency on war actually being declared at higher levels whereas the AI just seeks to safeguard units at the lower levels ?

I don't think the AI is so dumb as to jeopardise its cities by pulling out militia and so putting it at risk of a flip. Nor does it seem a likely algorithm to have the cities *know* when they're about to flip, get the militia out, re-take the city...the cultural influence isn't going to lessen and so the city would be just as likely to flip back again UNLESS the AI takes a nearby city first....

Whatever, hope to get some more gameplay in over the next couple of days and will keep an eye out for this sort of thing again.

I still reckon the idling workers might be a give-away signal of a city liable to flip...when you go abroad/go conquring the workers are usually busy beavering away at roads etc when you first arrive, then flee into hiding next turn. Maybe the strategy buffs know something on this ?

Taxi

Alex · February 19, 2002, 22:24

Taxi...

after all, I think it might be just a coincidence that the units have left the city before it flipped... because after that episode, I proceeded to improve my culture and some turns later Grenoble reverted to me without a single problem.

BTW, I was playing at Warlord (first game with the new patch, just wanted to relax and get a feel for the changes, as you say). But I'll watch this closely, just like you.

Swissy · February 20, 2002, 08:34

The AI is programed to keep offensive units, like swordsmen, outside of cities. The AI will only keep two defensive units and one ranged unit in a city unless at war, then it will up the units to three. If threatened, the AI will attempt to match the number of enemy units within two squares of the city. So that is why you always see the swordsmen outside of the city.

The AI will not declare war on you unless it knows it has the advantage,ei. it has a half dozen swordsmen vs the one spearman in the city that just flipped. If you want to avoid war you should get the targeted city hooked up to your road network and have a bunch of spearmen ready to move into the city when it flips. Also sent a bunch of your swordsmen/horsemen to the area as a show of force. The AI looks to see how many of your units are within two squares of its units when you ask them to leave. If the AI sees weakness it will declare war. If it sees strength it will move out. Make sure you keep your units shadowing the AI's until they are out of your area. I have had AI units supposedly leaving see a city with one defender start to hang around cause it sees easy pickings. I ask it to get the units moving and they declare war.

Taxidopolis · February 20, 2002, 09:28

Thanx Swissy, that makes a lot of sense

This is the same for the various patches though ? I ask cos of never having war related to flipping in pre-latest patch games....

Alex · February 20, 2002, 10:04

Yes, thanx Swissy. Interesting info. As is described in my first post, the AI actually turned back when it saw that Brighton would be an easy pick.

And I suppose that this behaviour was already present as of v1.07f, but, since I'm more of a builder, I never had a lot of chances to watch it.