more governments

davidt77 · February 18, 2002, 15:20

id like to see more government types, like fascism, Islamic, and the old Fundamentalism of Civ 2 in Civ 3..

Id really apreciate it if someone would come out with those types of governments, With the appropriate settings for each one. example

fascism, (support more militaryunits without paying for maintance)
more corruption, Rival civilizations more cautious towards you.

Islamic ( Less corruption than democracy, But less productivity, more military support, but not as much as fascism. and this type of government would be kinda like the fundamentalism government in Civ 2 but would have different effects. It should be called ISLAMIC STATE.

and maybe some new types of Governments, like Japenese Imperialism, (emporer), and something else if someone can think of any thing new and cool.

thanks. if anyone knows of a patch or update like that above then let me know.

Optimizer · February 18, 2002, 15:26

Why should a government type be tied to a specific religion?

davidt77 · February 18, 2002, 15:35

cause thats the way it is, in todays world you have all kinds of governments, Monarchys, Republics, dictatorships, communism, Used to have fascist states (ww2 Germany), islamic states, Imperialist type governments like ww2 Japan. I thought it be cool. thats all.

Spec · February 18, 2002, 16:11

Quote:

Originally posted by davidt77
cause thats the way it is, in todays world you have all kinds of governments, Monarchys, Republics, dictatorships, communism, Used to have fascist states (ww2 Germany), islamic states, Imperialist type governments like ww2 Japan. I thought it be cool. thats all.

I agree!

They could also have Masochism!! Makes citizens happy when you pop-rush and "use the whip".

Spec.

Fresno · February 19, 2002, 18:36

Oligarf told me you can add governments using the editor...

Willem · February 19, 2002, 18:42

Quote:

Originally posted by davidt77

Id really apreciate it if someone would come out with those types of governments, With the appropriate settings for each one. example

Just do it yourself. It's easily done in the editor if you really want to.

kimmygibler · February 19, 2002, 21:06

I think there was a fascist patch already made. Look at download section mabye...

steelehc · February 19, 2002, 21:19

A Fascist state would have more corruption until war breaks out, then it would drop to far less the democracy. There is no such thing as an "Islamic State," not in the same way that there are republics. An Islamic State is like a Jewish State, or a Catholic State, a certain kind of government, based on religion. You have a good idea, but it woulkd be better if you renamed it to Fundamentalism. That is a more general term, and one better suited to a form of government.

Other ideas...

Parliamentary Monarchy
Pure Communism (Impossible to achieve, but fun to play with)
Authoritarian Regime of some sort, like a modern Despotism

Steele

Willem · February 19, 2002, 21:52

Quote:

Originally posted by steelehc
A Fascist state would have more corruption until war breaks out, then it would drop to far less the democracy. There is no such thing as an "Islamic State," not in the same way that there are republics. An Islamic State is like a Jewish State, or a Catholic State, a certain kind of government, based on religion. You have a good idea, but it woulkd be better if you renamed it to Fundamentalism. That is a more general term, and one better suited to a form of government.

Other ideas...

Parliamentary Monarchy
Pure Communism (Impossible to achieve, but fun to play with)
Authoritarian Regime of some sort, like a modern Despotism

Steele

Theocracy would be a better term than Fundamentalism. Authoritarian Regime would be a Dictatorship, and Pure Communism would be Utopian Socialism. You could also have Social Democracy, or Democratic Socialism, like some of the European nations have now.

Ironikinit · February 19, 2002, 22:49

The best way to go about it, IMO, is to look at the game and see what it lacks. Mainly it seems to be a line or continuum:

Democracy: High commerce rate, war is difficult.
Republic
Monarchy
Communism
Despotism: Low commerce rate, war is easy.

OK, so I might not have the order just so, but you get the idea. Mostly government type affects commerce (via corruption and raw intake) and the ability to wage war (weariness, draft rate). A further consideration is the police rate.

Now that government specific buildings are possible, it could be possible to make governments that address other problems. For example, Green Socialism. War weariness rate high, medium corruption, can build pollution control buildings prior to the modern period, but if you change governments, they no longer work. I don't really know if that's possible or not under the editor.

OK, it's a goofy example. The point is that you look at what you think is lacking or would be fun in the game and find a real life gov't that fits the bill.

Willem · February 19, 2002, 23:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Ironikinit
The best way to go about it, IMO, is to look at the game and see what it lacks. Mainly it seems to be a line or continuum:

Democracy: High commerce rate, war is difficult.
Republic
Monarchy
Communism
Despotism: Low commerce rate, war is easy.

OK, so I might not have the order just so, but you get the idea. Mostly government type affects commerce (via corruption and raw intake) and the ability to wage war (weariness, draft rate). A further consideration is the police rate.

Now that government specific buildings are possible, it could be possible to make governments that address other problems. For example, Green Socialism. War weariness rate high, medium corruption, can build pollution control buildings prior to the modern period, but if you change governments, they no longer work. I don't really know if that's possible or not under the editor.

OK, it's a goofy example. The point is that you look at what you think is lacking or would be fun in the game and find a real life gov't that fits the bill.

Most of it is, though there's no adjustment possible for corruption. And you'd still need the proper tech for the buildings. This gov specific thing opens up a number of possibillities. I've been thinking of a gov specific improvement like the Cathedral, so that everytime you switch governments, you'll have to deal with some unhappiness, it won't be just a smooth transition.

It would be great if I could select multiple governments. That way I could switch all the religious buildings off whenever a gov went to Communism, They would have a seperate line of happiness buildings, like the Gulag, which they'd have to build from scratch. That would certainly slow down the war mongers!

paulmagusnet · February 19, 2002, 23:38

Actually I LIKE the idea of an Islamic State, I getting tired of the quasi christian generic RELIGION being promoted. People don't worship generic gods (except possibly the Unitarians). When you research Religion or Philosophy, you should get or be able to choose a particular religion or philosophy.

The reason theocracy hasn't worked in the various civs or seemed too powerful is because there is only one generic religion in the game. In the world, what ever advantages there are to a theocracy are largely offset by the reaction to it by states of other faiths or non-sectarian states.

Basically, your national identity is centered on some unifying principal, religion, race, economics, philosophy, geography, etc. Some of these give you powerful advantages or restrictions. One advantage the US had was that it was formed when an advanced philosophy was available and thus its unifying principal was very broad and non exclusive.

Propose the following:

Philosophical tracks, a short list:

Communitarian (the group is most important)
Romanticism (Reality can't be known, Logic fails, A=A and not A)
Libertarianism (the individual is most important)
Rationalist (Reality can be know, logic works, A=A)
Skepticism (I don't believe)
Nihilism (Kill them all)
Capitalism (Mine is mine, yours is yours, but we can trade)
Altruism (Mine is yours, yours is mine, lets have a give away)
etc.

What you pick affects you ability to choose or maintain a particular goverment type and how strong religion and science are in your sociaty.

A list of Religions including but not limited to:

Animistic
Voodoo
Panthiestic Rome/Greece
Buddist
Shinto
Hindi
Judism
Christianity: Orthodox, Roman, Protestant
Islam: Shia, Sunni

At a minimum, a religion gives you a group identity and possibly some advantages and conflicts.

Governments:

Anarchy
Tribal
Despotism (basically a monarchy without cultural support)
Fascism (quasi socialist/nationalism)
National Socialism (defacto socialism/racism)
Communism (dejure socialism/class hatred)
Democracy (mob rule)
Democratic Socialism (Weimar Republic)
Republic (Advanced mob rule)
Monarchy (quasi socialist/divinely justified)
Theocracy (quasi socialist/gods law-repression of other faiths)

Government Modifiers:

Philosophy
Constitution
Bureaucracy
Legal System
Federation
Empire
City-State
Communications/logistics

Corruption vs Happiness

I'm not really happy with the CIV III corruption model, it makes little sense. It starves the local populance of resources and has little effect beyond that. CIV CTP had a much better model with happiness with central government based upon relative distance. And you could improve control by improving infrastructure because it was based upon movement points, not tile count. A city far enough away could revolt and affect others around it.

paulmagusnet · February 19, 2002, 23:43

Quote:

Originally posted by kimmygibler
I think there was a fascist patch already made. Look at download section mabye...

Yea, I was there. This seems to be where all the Hitler Youth are hanging out these days. You'd be amazed by some of the posts.

facistdictator · February 20, 2002, 02:24

Paulmagusnet I dont think your opinion is very accurate or intelligent. If people chose to talk about a certain subject of history that does not classify them as supporters of that historical era. I also like the history of ancient rome so go ahead and tell me that I'm praying to venus or some heathern god. I think some of the different dynasties of ancient China are also very interesting so go ahead and say I'm cutting someone's head off with a samarui sword. I'm sorry next time I'll ask the Great all knowing Paulmagusnet what parts of history he likes so I can be under his dictatorial boot. I would understand you making your hasty remark if I were saying I'm a nazi and called everyone racist names but, I did not did I. So just so you know I have friends of different color, and friends of different religions. My name on this forum is simply game based. I like having that type of goverment in the game because I like to win by war. So chill!

Willem · February 20, 2002, 03:29

Where do you come off? I don't recall him ever mentioning you anywhere in his posts. Struck a little close to home there? Having erotic dreams of jackboots in your sleep? Do you feel this compelling urge to execute a straight arm salute, and strap a Swastika around your arm? What's your problem?

Nikolai · February 20, 2002, 10:48

This reminds me of The List!

Goody, goody!

Ah, nostalgia...

I must say I like the ideas. The only thing is, that I doubt Firaxis will implement this, since they already have rejected the same suggestions from us earlier(The List)...

Fresno · February 20, 2002, 12:09

Quote:

Originally posted by steelehc
Other ideas...

Parliamentary Monarchy

How would such a thing work out?

DrFell · February 20, 2002, 12:16

I think we're ok with the number of governments that we have right now. I would like to see some governments like monarchy and communism to be made more powerful. Perhaps by making monarchy a prequisite to getting to the next age and reducing corruption in it down to republic level, and by reducing corruption in communism a bit and changing despot rush unhappiness back down to 20 turns.

Willem · February 20, 2002, 12:25

Quote:

Originally posted by DrFell
I think we're ok with the number of governments that we have right now. I would like to see some governments like monarchy and communism to be made more powerful. Perhaps by making monarchy a prequisite to getting to the next age and reducing corruption in it down to republic level, and by reducing corruption in communism a bit and changing despot rush unhappiness back down to 20 turns.

No, we need at least one more. 3 of the civs have Despotism as their preferred gov, which to me isn't really a viable one for the Modern Era. I've added Dictatorship which I'm trying to turn into a modern form of Despotism. I haven't worked all the parameters yet.

DrFell · February 20, 2002, 12:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Willem

No, we need at least one more. 3 of the civs have Despotism as their preferred gov, which to me isn't really a viable one for the Modern Era. I've added Dictatorship which I'm trying to turn into a modern form of Despotism. I haven't worked all the parameters yet.

Hmm, perhaps communism could be distanced from despotism more (as it is it feels like modern despo) and a dictatorship government put in, which would still have centralised corruption unlike communism. Not sure about it's other attributes though.

Willem · February 20, 2002, 12:51

Quote:

Originally posted by DrFell

Hmm, perhaps communism could be distanced from despotism more (as it is it feels like modern despo) and a dictatorship government put in, which would still have centralised corruption unlike communism. Not sure about it's other attributes though.

Well first off it would have the tile restrictions lifted. That's one of the main reasons why Despotism isn't viable for the Modern Era. And it would also have the trade bonuses the Republic/Democracy does, but it would have much more corruption. Also more free units, though not as much as Communism, and a higher Draft rate, as well as military police. Plus low war weariness and forced labour. I've also lowered my worker rate to 1.

Bill9999 · February 20, 2002, 12:57

Quote:

Originally posted by paulmagusnet

Propose the following:

Philosophical tracks, a short list:

Communitarian (the group is most important)
Romanticism (Reality can't be known, Logic fails, A=A and not A)
Libertarianism (the individual is most important)
Rationalist (Reality can be know, logic works, A=A)
Skepticism (I don't believe)
Nihilism (Kill them all)
Capitalism (Mine is mine, yours is yours, but we can trade)
Altruism (Mine is yours, yours is mine, lets have a give away)
etc.

What you pick affects you ability to choose or maintain a particular goverment type and how strong religion and science are in your sociaty.

A list of Religions including but not limited to:

Animistic
Voodoo
Panthiestic Rome/Greece
Buddist
Shinto
Hindi
Judism
Christianity: Orthodox, Roman, Protestant
Islam: Shia, Sunni

At a minimum, a religion gives you a group identity and possibly some advantages and conflicts.

Governments:

Anarchy
Tribal
Despotism (basically a monarchy without cultural support)
Fascism (quasi socialist/nationalism)
National Socialism (defacto socialism/racism)
Communism (dejure socialism/class hatred)
Democracy (mob rule)
Democratic Socialism (Weimar Republic)
Republic (Advanced mob rule)
Monarchy (quasi socialist/divinely justified)
Theocracy (quasi socialist/gods law-repression of other faiths)

Government Modifiers:

Philosophy
Constitution
Bureaucracy
Legal System
Federation
Empire
City-State
Communications/logistics

Corruption vs Happiness

WOW! Couldn't you just imagine an upgraded version of the social/economic model from SMAC based on these variables! For me, I'd be in heaven.

It would have to be pared down, of course, less the "common folk" would be confused and complain to Firaxis that the game was too complicated.

Bill9999

DrFell · February 20, 2002, 12:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Willem

Well first off it would have the tile restrictions lifted. That's one of the main reasons why Despotism isn't viable for the Modern Era. And it would also have the trade bonuses the Republic/Democracy does, but it would have much more corruption. Also more free units, though not as much as Communism, and a higher Draft rate, as well as military police. Plus low war weariness and forced labour. I've also lowered my worker rate to 1.

Sounds good, assuming it was all balanced correctly it sounds like an entertaining alternative to the other modern governments. I always wondered why they never seem to put a dictatorship type government into civ, guess it might be to do with political correctness issues, I hated the way the Axis in the civ2 ww2 scenario was under a 'republic'. It just didn't seem right.

Willem · February 20, 2002, 13:13

Quote:

Originally posted by DrFell

Sounds good, assuming it was all balanced correctly it sounds like an entertaining alternative to the other modern governments. I always wondered why they never seem to put a dictatorship type government into civ, guess it might be to do with political correctness issues, I hated the way the Axis in the civ2 ww2 scenario was under a 'republic'. It just didn't seem right.

Well I haven't had a chance to try it out yet, I'm redoing my whole mod and haven't even played with the new patch yet. I'm also thinking of a Socialist gov, as in Utopian Socialism. If I use the Communal corruption model, I could add the trade bonuses, which Communism doesn't have now, but have no free units, like in Democracy. I've also upped the unit costs in Republic and Democracy, though again I'm not sure yet how it will play out.

facistdictator · February 20, 2002, 15:48

Willem your more racist than you think. Let me educate you a little, when someone assumes that a whole group of people on a certain forum or post belongs to a certain political organization, that they do not, that is racism!

Just because someone has a bad experience with a person of a certain color or religon does not give them the right to classify all people of that race or religon a certain way. And thats what he did when he said that's where the Hitler Youth hang out.

So Willem if you are a racist that's your problem but dont condone it on these forum's.

Willem · February 20, 2002, 15:54

Well I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but after the first sentence I realized that you have nothing to say that would interest me. Good bye.

Alinestra Covelia · February 20, 2002, 21:16

Something I thought was interesting was the curious monopoly on extra trade per square that the Republics and Democracy models had.

If some government types can generate extra trade arrows per square, then how about making other gov types able to generate extra food, or material resources?

An obvious example that springs to mind is Communism and its industrial focus. Perhaps we could have a tweak that allows Communist states to produce one extra shield icon for each square already producing one?

This would also have pollution side effects, which strikes me as being quite close to the grey and dreary picture that Maoist China and Stalinist Russia call up to mind...

I disagree with Civ2's No-corruption Communism model, but I don't think that levelling corruption throughout the empire is the answer. The corruption index should stay the same as with other government types (less near the center, more near the fringes).

However, the pop rush/no war weariness is quite accurate, and I think the double police duty of Civ2 would suffice.

Note: I don't have Civ3 yet but these are just my two blind-in-the-dark cents for the discussion.

DrFell · February 21, 2002, 05:12

Hmm, I didn't see anything racist in any of your posts...

Fresno · February 21, 2002, 08:42

Can't you guys just stop the fascism-discussion? Every intelligent poster knows fascism is an evil thing. It's pointless to try to convince those who don't see it. You won't convince eachother, just accept it.

Now back to the real discussion.

What I miss in civ2 is a primitive decentralist government instead of despotism. For example the Germanic and Celtic peoples had no emperor ruling them for a very long time. The same goes for example for the Iriquois. So what civ needs is some kind of tribal government as an early option.

Jac de Molay · February 21, 2002, 09:54

Quote:

WOW! Couldn't you just imagine an upgraded version of the social/economic model

My sentiment exactly. An expanded SE model should have been implemented since I think it reflects more accurately the true nature of world governments. The approach in Civ 3 is still too linear.