Tech List 0.1

[DarkCloud]

----
Road Building
{Roads Tile Improvement
{1/4 increased movement}
[No Prequistices]
----
----
Mining
{Mines
{Same as original Game}
[No Prequistices]
----
----
Immunization
{First Civ to discover receives 1 happy person per city for 100 years}
[Medicine, The Modern Age]
----
----
Religion
{Temple
{Same as original Game}
{Oracle
{Same as original Game}
|
Astrology
[Philosophy, Religion]
|
Astronomy
{Copernicus's Observatory
{Same as original Game}
[Astrology, Map Making]
|
Physics
{1 Free advance to first civ to discover}
[Theory of Gravity, Astronomy]
|
Atomic Theory
[Physics]
|
Nuclear Physics
{Manhattan Project allows Nukes}
{Nuclear Warheads
{Same as original Game}
{Cruise Missiles
{Same as original Game}
[Atomic Theory,Relativity]
|
Advanced Nuclear Physics
{Electromagnetic Pulse Weapon (EPM)
{Kills only living things without contamination}
{Light Bomb
{Cuts electricity in cities}
[Nuclear Physics,?]
----
----
Paper
{Discovery grants +25% boost in Production,
+10% boost in Trade, +50% boost in Science}
[Writing]
|
Prining Press
{Johannes Gutenberg's Printing Press
{Same as CTP}
[Mechanics,Paper]
|
Typewriter
{+50% Productivity}
[Printing Press, Electricity]
----
----
Mechanics
{+10% Production across civ and +25% Science across civ (20 turns)}
[Engineering]
----
----
Ballooning
{Scout Balloons
{0-1-10(20)}
[Invention, Physics]
|
Advanced Ballooning
{Zeppelin
{4-1-7(14)}
[Machine Tools, Ballooning]
----
----
Bronze Working
{Phalanx
{Same as original Game}
{Colossus
{Same as original Game}
{Guards
{1-2-1 +1 defense when inside city}
[No Prequistices]
|
Iron Working
{Legion
{Same as original Game}
[Bronze Working]
|
Bridge Building
{Bridges Tile Improvement
{Same as original Game}
[Engineering, Iron Working]
|
Canal Building
{Canals Tile Improvement
{can be built up to 2 shores inland}
[Bridge Building]
----
----
The Modern Age
{New Building Tile Set}
{+20% Science}
{WOMENS SUFFRAGE
{same as original Game}
[Atomic Theory]
----
----
Nationalism
{Fanatic Unit
{Same as civ}
[Industrialzation, The Modern Age]
|
Militia
{Militia Unit
{Defends City if no other defenders (1-2-1)}
[Nationalism, Machine Tools]
----
----
Capitalism
{Same as original Game}
[Market Economy]
|
Socialism
{WONDER- Karl Marx's essays
{+1 Happiness}
{GOVT TYPE- +1 happiness, 0% Max Luxury, 70% Max Science, 50% Max Taxes}
[Capitalism, Philosophy]
|
Communism
{GOVT
{Same as Civ}
{Police Station
{Same as Civ}
[Nationalism,Socialism]
----
----
Labor Union
{MFG Plant
{Same as Civ}
{Mech. Infantry
{Same as Civ}
[Nationalism, Assembly Line]
----
----
Chemistry
{none}
[Invention,Physics]
|
Periodic Table
{First Civ to discover gets a free advance}
[Chemistry]
----
----
Assembly Line
{Ford Motor Co. WONDER
{-See "Big, Big, Big List of Wonders thread}
{+10% Production}
[The Modern Age, Machine Tools]
----
----
Guerilla Warfare
{Guerilla Unit
{3-2-2}
[Socialism,Nationalism]
----
----
Spanned Bridges
{Bridges Tile Improvement
{Across oceans 1 square}
{Golden Gate Bridge
{Effects??? Propose ideas???}
[Democracy, Bridge Building]
----
----
Plant Domestication
{Irrigation}
[No Prequistices]
----
----
Animal Domestication
{Preq for Horse and Other Animal Riding}
[No Prequistices]
|
Horseback Riding
{Horseman
{Same as original}
[Animal Domestication]
|
The Wheel
{Chariot
{Same as original}
[Horseback Riding]
|
Engineering
{No improvements}
[Chivalry, The Wheel]
|
Invention
{Leonardo's Workshop
{Same as original}
[Engineering, Literacy]
|
Gunpowder
{Musketeers
{Same as original}
[Invention]
|
Metallurgy
{Cannon
{Same as original}
{Coastal Fortress
{Same as original}
[Construction*(Changed from University), Gunpowder]
|
Electricity
{Destroyer
{Same as Original}
[Magnetism, Metallurgy]
|
Steel
{Steel Mill
{100% Production Boost when building Sea or Air Units, Double Pollution}
{Cruiser
{Same as original game}
[Industrilization, Electricity]
|
Machine Tools
{Artillery
{Same as original game}
[Electronics, Steel]
|
Minaturization
{Offshore Platform
{Same as original game}
[Tactics, Machine Tools]
|
Computer
{SETI Program (WONDER)
{Same as original game}
[Mass Production, Minaturization, Typewriter]
|
Computer Networks
{The Internet (WONDER)
{+25% Trade across civ, +5% Production}
[Computer, Telephones]
----
----
Literacy
{Great Library
{Same as original}
{Library
{Same as original}
[Writing, Alphabet]
|
University
{University
{Same as original}
[Literacy, Mathematics]
----
-----
Monarchy
{Same as civ}
[University]
|
Bureaucracy
{Opens government types other than Despotism and Monarchy}
[Diplomacy, Monarchy]
----
----
Relativity
{Nothing}
[Atomic Theory, Philosophy]
----
----
Geography
{Maps are 50% more correct when geography is discovered from base of 20%}
[Literacy, Mathematics]
|
Triangulation
{Maps are 100% correct}
[Geography, Engineering]
----
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Alphabet
{School
{Increased Science by 25% cumulative with Library}
[No Prequistices]
|
Writing
[Alphabet]
|
Diplomacy
{Diplomat
{Same as original}
[Writing, University]
|
Trade
{Marketplace
{Same as original}
[Diplomacy]
|
Banking
{Bank
{Same as original}
[The Republic, Currency]
|
Market Economy
{Stock Market
{Same as original}
[Democracy, Banking]
----
----
Philosophy
{1 Free Advance to first civ to reach}
{Philosophers Stone
{Same as Civ CTP}
(Astrology)
----
----
Currency
{Caravan
{Same as original}
{World Trade
{Same as Marco Polo's Embassy}
[Trade]
|
Entertainment
{Theatre
{30% happiness increase for discontent, 10% for content}
{Shakespeares Theatre
{Same as original}
[Philosophy, Currency]
----
----
Biology
{Farms/Irrigated Fields produce +10% more}
[Philosophy, Invention]
|
Medicine
[Invention, Currency]
|
Immunization
{+10% happiness for 10 turns for first civ to discover}
[Medicine, The Modern Age]
----
----*
Television
{T.V. Plant
{+25% Luxuries in city}
[Mass Production, Minaturization]
----
----*
|
Antimatter Implosion
{Antimatter Energy Generator
{+25% Production (Pollution Free}
[Solar Plant, Nuclear Fission]
----
----*
Electronics
{Hydro Plant
{Same as original game}
{Hoover Dam WONDER
{Same as original game}
[The Corporation, Electricity]
|
Telephones
{Telephone Lines
{+10% Production Boost in City}
[Electronics, ?]
----
----*
Satellites
{Sattelites can be launched in cities
{You can see the entire map}
[?]
|
War Satellites
{Killer Satellite can be launched from cities
{Could bombard planet from orbit. Great potential for great distruction.}
[Satellites, ?]
----*
Asteroid Mining
{Asteroid Mining Component for Spacecraft
{+25% Production to host city that builds Spacecraft}
[?]
|
Advanced Mining Techniques
{Advanced Asteroid Mining Component for Spacecraft
{+50% Production to host city that builds Spacecraft; Cumulative with Asteroid Mining]
[Asteroid Mining, ?]
----

(currently) 63 Technologies

Bronze Working-->Iron Working-->Bridge Building-->Canal Building
Bronze Working-->Iron Working-->Bridge Building-->Spanned Bridges

Road Building

Animal Domestication-->Horseback Riding-->The Wheel-->Engineering-->Invention-->Gunpowder-->Metallurgy-->Electricity-->Steel-->Machine Tools-->Minaturization-->Computers-->Computer Networks
Animal Domestication-->Horseback Riding-->The Wheel-->Engineering-->Invention-->Gunpowder-->Metallurgy-->Electricity-->Steel-->Machine Tools-->Assembly Line
Animal Domestication-->Horseback Riding-->The Wheel-->Engineering-->Invention-->Gunpowder-->Metallurgy-->Electricity-->Electronics-->Telephones
Animal Domestication-->Horseback Riding-->The Wheel-->Engineering-->Invention-->Biology*-->Medicine*-->Immunization
Animal Domestication-->Horseback Riding-->The Wheel-->Engineering-->Mechanics

Alphabet-->Writing-->Diplomacy-->Trade-->Banking-->Market Economy-->Capitalism-->Socialism-->Communism
Alphabet-->Writing-->Diplomacy-->Trade-->Banking-->Market Economy-->Capitalism-->Socialism-->Guerilla Warfare*
Alphabet-->Writing-->Diplomacy-->Trade-->Currency-->Entertainment*
Alphabet-->Writing-->Diplomacy-->Trade-->Currency-->Medicine*
Alphabet-->Writing-->Literacy-->University-->Bureaucracy-->Monarchy
Alphabet-->Writing-->Literacy-->Geography-->Triangulation
Alphabet-->Writing-->Paper-->Printing Press-->Typewriter
Alphabet-->Map Making

Plant Domestication

Mining

Religion-->Astrology-->Astronomy-->Physics-->Atomic Theory-->Nuclear Physics-->Advanced Nuclear Physics
Religion-->Astrology-->Astronomy-->Physics-->Atomic Theory-->The Modern Age-->Nationalism-->Militia
Religion-->Astrology-->Astronomy-->Physics-->Atomic Theory-->The Modern Age-->Nationalism-->Labor Union
Religion-->Astrology-->Astronomy-->Physics-->Atomic Theory-->The Modern Age-->Nationalism-->Guerilla Warfare*
Religion-->Astrology-->Astronomy-->Physics-->Atomic Theory-->Relativity*
Religion-->Astrology-->Astronomy-->Physics-->Ballooning-->Advanced Ballooning
Religion-->Astrology-->Philosophy-->Biology*
Religion-->Astrology-->Philosophy-->Entertainment*
Religion-->Astrology-->Philosophy-->Relativity*

*= the Two technologies given for its discovery shown.
[This message has been edited by DarkCloud (edited November 04, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by DarkCloud (edited November 07, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by DarkCloud (edited December 14, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by DarkCloud (edited December 17, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by DarkCloud (edited December 30, 2000).]

[Shadowstrike]

Hydroponics
Hydroponics Facility (+1 food per square)

Cloning
Cloning Facility (Building Infantry Units do not reduce population), +1 happiness
All relationships with other nations suffer as you embrace cloning.

Genetic Modification
Increases food production in all cities by +10.
Has a random chance of starting riots in cities.

Protein/Gene Study
Genetic Laboratory: +100 research/turn if studying biotech advances.

Organic Waste Degradation
-25% pollution
Organic Waste Degardation Facility (Reduces pollution in city by 50%)

Nuclear Fusion
Fusion Missile: WMD, more powerful then A-Bomb.
Fusion Ractor (Increases production by 75%, traces of pollution)

Cold Fusion
Cold Fusion Reactor (Increase Production by 75%, small amounts of pollution)

Adv. Solar Power
Solar Arrays (Increase Prduction by 50%, no pollution)
Reduces Pollution produced by population.

Tidal Harnesses
Tidal Harnesses (Increase Production by 100%, expensive, underwater cities only)

Antimatter Implosion
Antimatter Implosion Facility (Increases Production by 200%, chance of accident, destroying large area...)

Controlled Singularity
Controlled Singularity (Wonder, Increases Production by 200% in every city, chance of accident, destroying entire solar system...)

Microfusion Generators
+10% production in all cities
Reduces Pollution by Population
+1 Free Advance

Quantum Computers
+10% Research
+1 Free Advance
Enhances Research Labs

Cybernetic Computer
+20% Research
Enhances Research Lab
+2 Unhappy Citizen/city

Biological Computer
+15% Research
+1 Unhappy Citizen
Enhances Research Lab

The Internet
The Internet (wonder, boosts trade in all cities)
Internet Connection (+25% Trade, +25% Research, +1 happy citizen)

Optical networks
Increases Internet Connection Effectiveness.
Enhances Research Lab.

Data Crystals
+25% Research
Adv Research Lab (Increses Science by 25%)
+1 Free Advance

Virtual Reality
Holosuites (+2 Happy Citizens or makes 3 unhappy content)

Artificial Intelligence
+15% Research
Automated Research Labs (+50% Science)

Cities in Space
Allows construction of cities in space.

Moon Bases
Allows construction of colonies on the Moon.

Planatery Colonies
Allows colonies on 5 nearby planets,

Asteroid Mining:
Like Capitalization, but quadruples output when ended for same amount of time spent.

Adv. Mining Techniques
+10% Production
Automated Mining Facility (+25% Production)

[This message has been edited by Shadowstrike (edited October 30, 2000).]

[DarkCloud]

Nice list Shadowstrike...
I've updated mine and have added some of your ideas to it.

[Shadowstrike]

Sorry about forgeting the list... I was caught up in work. Anyhow, I think I'll finish the list in a couple of days. I rushed the one that I did...

Still need to figure out prerequsites, and give some techs more abilities.

------------------
Webmaster of Shadowstrike's Civilization II Site
Emperor of The Gamer's Abode Forums

[Dom Pedro II]

Lots of good stuff. I can see a growth in that alot of the recent topics have had an influence on the techs and their functions. I have only one comment: Don't forget the Market System! I'm not going to make any suggestions because I would have to assume that you guys have accepted my commodities and system of trade, etc. so I'll just leave it up to you.

------------------
"...The highest realization of warfare is to attack the enemy's plans; next is to attack their alliances; next to attack their army; and the lowest is to attack their fortified cities." - Sun Tzu

Dom Pedro II.... aka Hannibal3

Dom Pedro II - 2nd and last Emperor of the Empire of Brazil (1831 - 1889).

[Zer0_T0lerance]

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud on 10-18-2000 08:56 PM Computer {SETI Program (WONDER) {Same as original game} [Mass Production, Minaturization] | Computer Networks {The Internet (WONDER) {+25% Trade across civ, +5% Production} [Computer, Electronics]

From Zero_Tolerance (formerly jrhughes98)

I don't think that the Internet should be a wonder. That is just totally unrealistic! I mean, come on! The Internet is made up of world wide interconnected networks; that's why they call it the Internet--because its multiple computer networks combined into a single system interconnected by hyperlinks. Making the Internet a wonder would make it look as if it is limited to only a single civ.

Instead, I believe the Internet should be a tech. Its prerequisites can be 'Networking' and 'Supercomputers,' for example. Supercomputers are needed to run some Internet servers and the Internet Backbone. I think that there should be 'Microcomputers' and 'Supercomputers' techs in addition to the 'Computers' tech because the first computers did not use transistors to temporarily hold bits of data; instead they used what is known as vaccuum tubes to move around bits of data. I think that 'Vaccuum Tubes' and 'Analog' could be prerequisites of 'Computers.' 'The Transistor,' 'Miniaturization,' 'Binary Code,' and 'Silicon,' could all be prerequisites of 'Microcomputers.' Microcomputers could be a prerequisite of 'Networking' and 'Supercomputers'; this is because supercomputers are built from microcomputer components and we obviously need microcomputers to set up computer networks.

I think that 'The Internet' should be an information (Information Age) academic science, simply because it was first used for personal homepages and to exchange information much faster than before, thus scientific information is exchanged more quickly. This tech should immediately boost your science rate by about 10% and grow over time because the Internet will grow and grow and grow and grow some more and keep on growing; it will eventually reach 100% which will effectively double your science rate--perhaps it should stop there because if it goes any higher I'm afraid it will affect gameplay too drastically. 'The Internet,' because it is the "Information Superhighway" should also launch the Information Age in Civ3. 'The Internet,' an information academic science, along with 'SSL Encryption,' a modern applied science, could lead to 'E-Commerce,' an information economic science. In addition, 'The Internet' can be also be a prerequisite of 'Advanced Telecommunications,' an information applied science. By advanced telecommunications I mean things like cellular phones, pagers, fax machines, broadbandwith, XML, ActiveX, Javascripting, etc., which take even further advantage of the Internet, further increasing your science rate!



------------------
Zero
[This message has been edited by Zero_Tolerance (edited November 07, 2000).]

[JESSVG01]

How about the wonder MSFT and CSCO dominate Nasdaq ... if you really want to get to the heart of the matter

[Zer0_T0lerance]

quote: Originally posted by JESSVG01 on 11-07-2000 01:56 AM How about the wonder MSFT and CSCO dominate Nasdaq ... if you really want to get to the heart of the matter

LOL!!!



------------------
Zero

[Ribannah]

Here are a few that I've put in my Complete Tech Tree (first version almost ready now):

Paganism (-> Ceremonial Burial, The Calendar)

The Council (<- Agriculture, -> Code of Laws, Currency)

Canal building (<- Irrigation, Construction, -> The Mill, Sanitation)

Biology (<- Humanism, Arts, -> Ecology, Pyschology)

Liberalism (<- Human Rights, Romanticism, -> Socialism)

Logistics (<- Industrialization, Explosives, -> Algorithms, Radio)

Hydraulics (<- Refining, Steel, -> Automobile, Flight, Refrigeration)


------------------
If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah on 11-07-2000 11:37 AM Liberalism (<- Human Rights, Romanticism, -> Socialism)

Romanticism wasn't really developed until the mid of 19th century whereas liberal ideas emerged during the "Enlightenment" (right vocabular? -Age of Reason?)

I would add Scientific Theory as already mentioned in other threads as prerequisite for all modern sciences.



------------------
Wernazuma alias Cheshirecat alias Wörn

Master Mind of the World of Arendra

[DarkCloud]

Yes, but Ribannah, what would your techs have in the way of Units, Wonders, Improvements, etc.

Zero_T--- The reason I believe that "The Internet" is better a wonder than a tech is it could be a 'different' wonder. The wonder would benefit all countries, but the builder country more than all as does the internet today, (sort of).

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by wernazuma on 11-07-2000 06:32 PM Romanticism wasn't really developed until the mid of 19th century whereas liberal ideas emerged during the "Enlightenment" (right vocabular? -Age of Reason?) I would add Scientific Theory as already mentioned in other threads as prerequisite for all modern sciences.

I have Enlightenment as a prereq for Nationalism, which in turn leads to Romanticism - and also to Democracy, from which springs Human Rights. A lot happened in that time-frame.

The tree is open for pruning, however

Instead of Scientific Theory I have Mechanics
(->Atomic Theory, maybe more) and Empiricism (-> Theory of Gravity, Steam Engine, Algorithms).




------------------
If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud on 11-07-2000 08:50 PM Yes, but Ribannah, what would your techs have in the way of Units, Wonders, Improvements, etc.

A lot already, they are mentioned in the tree which I will publish shortly, details will follow later.

Some new units: Shaman, Ship of the Line, Sappers.

Some new wonders: Kinderdike Mills, Utopia, Grand Canal, Turing Machine. At the moment I have about 45.



------------------
If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah on 11-07-2000 08:56 PM I have Enlightenment as a prereq for Nationalism, which in turn leads to Romanticism - and also to Democracy, from which springs Human Rights. A lot happened in that time-frame.

Well, at all I'm not sure whether Romanticism should be really considered an advance. I don't really think it was so vital for the developmet of liberal ideas... (in the german culture Romanticism was merely something conservative.
However I agree that IF it's included, Nationalism has to be a prereq. for Romanticism.
You're right that a lot happened in that time so I'm not sure if Romanticism really belongs to the most important ones.

------------------
Wernazuma alias Cheshirecat alias Wörn

Master Mind of the World of Arendra

[DarkCloud]

Oh a shaman, I had an idea of that sort a while back:
and Bush Warriors/ Indian Warfare tech.

But after thinking a while on it I determined that these were unneeded, the bush warriors are merely warriors, and Shamen are merely Phalanxes unless given magical power which Is stupid in a historical game/ or moral boost quality to make units become 'Veterans' etc.

Snipers- attack (8) on hills (stealth) reg attack 5.

[Dom Pedro II]

Here's all of my suggestions

[Kestrel]

What about the Telephone ?

Most of you reading this are connected to the internet by it, and it definitely was a precursor to Radio, (and the Internet) and yet it always seems to be left off everyone's tech tree lists. Why - does it hint at some sort of a technology blind spot ? Or is it not as important as I think ?

IMHO the establishment and maintenance of a Telephone system is one of the base infrastructures that a country now needs in order to be internationally competitive. (or even locally effective).

Having worked in a number of countries in the third world without a reliable telephone system I have found that its absence makes the wheels of business turn inordinately slowly.

[Vrank Prins]

quote: Some new wonders: Kinderdike Mills. At the moment I have about 45.

I would like to add tulips and clogs. Come on Rib .....

[Vrank Prins]

quote: Some new wonders: Kinderdike Mills. At the moment I have about 45.

I would like to add tulips and clogs. Come on Rib .....

[Vrank Prins]

quote: Some new wonders: Kinderdike Mills. At the moment I have about 45.

I would like to add tulips and clogs. Come on Rib .....
[This message has been edited by Vrank Prins (edited November 10, 2000).]

[Vrank Prins]

quote: Originally posted by wernazuma on 11-08-2000 06:05 Well, at all I'm not sure whether Romanticism should be really considered an advance. I don't really think it was so vital for the development of liberal ideas... (in the german culture Romanticism was merely something conservative. However I agree that IF it's included, Nationalism has to be a prereq. for Romanticism. You're right that a lot happened in that time so I'm not sure if Romanticism really belongs to the most important ones.

Sorry Werner, your saying that romanticism appeared in the early 19th century and that it should have nationalism as a prereq. is a typical Austrian/German notion.

A historical explanation, just to put things in perspective .

Romanticism has its roots in mid 18th century France. It’s most important "prophet" was the Genevan writer/pamfletteer Jean Jacques Rousseau (1712-1778), who f.i. wrote "Du contrat social". The one thing romanticism is about, is (personal) self-determination. In literature a new phenomenen appeared the novel (french/dutch/german=roman: a novellist=romancier) in which the personal life of citizens was the main subject. A good example of a german "romantic" book is "die Leiden des jungen Werthers", by Goethe first published 1774.

Romantic idea’s played a very important role in the american and french revolution. The expression the rights of man comes from the name of a pamflet written by a scottish American Thomas Paine*, in favor of the french revolution. He’s also is the writer of two other pamflets of which the names have stuck in the "westernworld" collective memory, "Common Sense" and "the Age of Reason". "Common sense" was written during the American revolution, "the Age of Reason" after the french revolution. All three pamflets basically are about basing the right of self-determination of a people/nations on reason. (BTW one of the example’s for the american and french republic was the dutch republic (for whom (little known) the suisse republic was an example)) (in the NL there was widespread "patriotic" support for the american and french revolutionary cause, which lead to the fourth Dutch-Anglo war in 1780-1784).

After the revolt in 1789 in France a "constitutional" republic was founded. The constitution (D=Grundgesetz, NL=grondwet) was to be the foundation of the whole legislative system. This law, a legislative novelty !!, started with a summary of the rights of man. The revolutionary concept of administration and legislation was based on the Trias Politica. In the french revolutionary constitution also was stated that all citizens (mind you, in those days there wasn’t any talk about women(rights/duties)) had the duty to defend their country. This lead to the introduction of Conscription. The large "people’s-armies" lead by (a.o.) Napoleon swept across the european mainland. There’s also the brilliance of Napoleon as a strategist, but in general the opponent states just couldn’t power up against the massive french force. Britain had to heavily use pressgangs to reinforce its army and navy.
After the revolution was corrupted for (also but mainly) napoleonic dynastic reasons, Napoleon propagated the threat of the occupation of the "french fatherland" itself, and used this as a reason to maintain the armies/conscription. You can say Nationalism was born in that moment of time. "Allons enfant the leur patrie . . etc."

The revolution and its ideas about people’s-rights/legislation/administration had been exported all over the continent. In general all over Europe the french occupation at first was welcomed with great enthousiam, f.i. Jews and in the Netherlands also the catholics (a.o. tolerated religions) for the first time were given equal civilian rights. In Germany and Austria it inspired a complete generation with revolutionary/romantic (nationalistic/liberal) ideals**.
After the french were beaten, all over Europe a/the reaction (to the revolution) set in. Large parts of the legislative and administrative system based on the Trias Politica, just without a sigh were adopted by the reactionary, Conservative monarchistic/impirial governments. The reaction first and foremost meant that the revolutionary constitution (with all its people’s-rights !!!!!) was abandoned. But, all over Europe one revolutionary duty remained, . . . . . conscription. The idea must have appealed to the governments (as happened in the NL), it was a cheap way to produce massive armies. Because of the fact that the people were kept from their former (revolutionary) rights, nationalistic propaganda "We must keep France at bay" was heavily used as a way to justify conscription.
Nationalism as an ideological set of ideas about the self-determination of a nation has helped to emancipate smaller nations, like the Belgians, under dutch rule from 1815 to 1830, the Greeks (Turkish rule up to 1836), the Servs (Turkish rule up to 1878), the Norwegians (Swedish rule up to 1905), etc. That’s I think the good side of Nationalism.

During the reaction Liberalism and Socialism as movements emerged.
Liberalism was a movement less radical than the french revolutionary movement but still based on the romantic ideas of self-determination. It was concerned with civilian and administrative renewal, re-installment of the constitution, the vote was only to be given to those who were able to pay taxes, which meant no votes for the "mob/proles". Economical it leaned heavily on the ideas of the scottish American Adam Smith !! (1723-1790), who propagated very little state influence on trade and industrial affairs, a strong reaction towards the former british and also (!) french (Colbertism) monarchistic practice.
Socialism was based on the more radical ideas which (a.o.) Rousseau wrote about. The term Socialism also comes from late 18th century France. Vote had to be given to every citizen, whether paying taxes or not. Economical it said that governments had a social duty towards their citizens, should protect them from bad working conditions.

Both liberalism and socialism were strongly oppressed by the reactionary governments. In 1830 and in 1848 in dramatic climathological conditions which caused cropfailure (potatoedisease in Ireland), famine and economical depression, this lead to "romantic" revolutions all over Europe, f.i. in Austria (Wien/Vienna). In 1848 in NL we didn’t have a revolution. But the King (Willem II van Oranje-Nassau) was just so scared out of his wits that he literally overnight gave in to the liberals, a new (second !) constitution was instated in 1849.

1848 also gave birth to an even more radical movement than socialism, Communism a term being invented by Marx and Engels. In "das Kommunistische Manifest" they stated that should the working class survive and prosper, all economical means should be ruled/owned by it.

Underneath of all this lies the social and economical change from the organization of the working and trading class through guilds towards industrialization and free trade.
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There’s more to be said about the consequences this all in my opinion should have for the game and the tech tree, that’s what this thread is about, isn’t it. What and how much of it do we want.
For the moment I leave this reply for what it is. You’ll be hearing from me again after the weekend.

* Last summer, very surprising to me, I heard a beautiful almost "republican" song about Paine being sung by an enthousiastic audience in a folkclub in Whitby, North-Yorkshire, England. Things like that I didn’t expect to happen in the United Kingdom. That really added to the english experience on my holiday.
** Which in the end after some 60 years lead to the re-unification of germany as a unity-state, which scared the hell out of the french, the english and the russians, which lead to an armsrace, which culminated in the first and second world war and last be not least luckily enough in the cold, and not the third world, war. Though I consider myself to be a patriot in the romantic sense of the word, I can’t say I like nationalism that much, whether its dutch, or where-ever from.


"Im Krug zum grünen Kranzen da kehrt ich mal hinein. Da sass ein Bürger drinnen ... "
("In the pub of the green garment I turned in. There I saw a citizen ... " early 19th century german (typical romantic) folksong,)
[This message has been edited by Vrank Prins (edited November 10, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Vrank Prins (edited November 10, 2000).]

[Ribannah]

Those "roots" of Romanticism are usually called "Enlightenment". Nationalism gave Romanticism the chance to take real shape. History often works like this. Hence the order in my tech tree: Enlightenment -> Nationalism -> Romanticism, as well as Trias Politica -> Democracy -> Human Rights, the two branches coming together in Liberalism.

The notion of Communism took form before the less extreme Socialism grew into an independent idea. Again the roots of Socialism are of an earlier date. But before Communism was "invented" Socialism was treated as a mere aspect of Liberalism.

Conscription, as an advance, is way older, the knowledge has existed since the dawn of civilization but was applied on and off.

Thomas Paine, btw, also introduced the concept of Basic Income. As an advance, however, I would put this into the tree as a future tech with Social Security as a prerequisite. Once more, early roots are not decisive IMHO. Applications are.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Vrank Prins]

quote: Originally posted by wernazuma on 11-07-2000 06:32 PM I would add Scientific Theory as already mentioned in other threads as prerequisite for all modern sciences.

(This is also being discussed in the thread my complete techtree by Ribannah !!)
My choice is definitely Empiricisme. Yes, it is a way of thinking (and also doing !!). And it's a scientific theory, as there have been (and still are) very many theories/philosophies about how to approach science. It is the way that real scientific knowledge is gained through protocolled experiment, close observation, calculation and re-experiment, close ... etc. over and over again.

Important thing is that in the time Empiricism emerged it contrasted sharply with the by the church "allowed" ways of science who didn't undermine the dogma's (status) of the church. Dogma's which didn't need any prove, because they were devine truths. (A "there's a hippo in the pond". B "but I can't see it swimming there?!". A "but that doesn't prove it's not there. And we say it's there, so you better believe it".)
Galilei was sanction by the pope for his theories. If he and all the other new scientists, like f.i. Copernicus, really had taken any notice of the clerical dogma's nothing would have happened. What would have happened to Newton if England still had been catholic ??
This is also where Humanism comes in. It loosened the dogmatic way's of the church, saying that men should have the freedom to explore gods creation.
[This message has been edited by Vrank Prins (edited November 14, 2000).]

[DarkCloud]

Large Update.

[Deity Dude]

I like the telephone idea especially if there is a communication element added to the game. It could almost be it own category of techs maybe starting with language -> storytelling(stole that one off someone else's) ->writing -> printing press -> postal delivery -> telephone -> radio -> television -> satellites -> internet. obviously there would be other prerequisites for each of these but this could be a potential communications path

[Matthew Hayden]

Don't use telephone, maybe telegraphy, which would give you basic telegraph like communications (maybe find some way to simulate the deployment of telegraph
cables eg; you can place land lines along roads and/or
railroads.) Later on another advance would allow for
more advanced communications, maybe Telecommunication
(a bit vague I know).

[Matthew Hayden]

Maybe have Trigger based advances, eg; Colonialism makes certain AI civs suddenly interested in pursuing overseas empires. Advances could also trigger changes in attitude between any two or more civs.
Please say if you like this idea 'cause I'm a newb'y

[Matthew Hayden]

I would like to see my idea arranged very similarly to Deity Dude's, eg;

writing->printing press->postal delivery/telegraphy->telecommunication->radio->television/televisor->mass media->internet

Just a possibility mind you

[Tical_2000]

Why are you idiots making your own tech trees??!! I mean, what the hell's the matter with you?! Don't you have lives to attend to? Firaxis will make the tech tree and that's fine by me.

[Nikolai]

What's wrong Tical? Why are you so angry on everybody?

I don't think I have seen ONE thread where you have posted, that you haven't criticized somebody!

Can't you calm down?

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Who am I? What am I? Do we need Civ? Yes!!
birteaw@online.no