Tech trading post-patch

[Arathorn]

This is gonna be a bit of a rant.... You've been warned. OTOH, I think it's a legitimate complaint. I'll maybe propose it that way in another thread.

The "more aggressive" AI tech trading makes the game less enjoyable and suck a lot more. Before, each civ was in some ways unique -- some ahead in tech, some with money, some religious or scientific or .... Now, they're all the same.

But the thing that really pisses me off is the way they trade with each other and not with the human. More aggressive, maybe, but not universally. That is, any time any AI civ gets a new tech, every AI civ will have it. But they WILL NOT offer it to the human player. Why the #@&&*(#@&@%)!@*&$!()@&%()@&%#%$()@&%()@&%+* not? This is a blatant AI-only behavior that sucks even worse than them trading during your turn (well, maybe not).

I mean, if the AI is going to trade its tech away to everybody, that's fine. But it should trade it to everybody who can afford it, not just the other AI players. It gives the whole game that oh-so-annoying one player vs. a united AI masquerading as different players feel.

And, of course, there's no nice trade advisor to tell you that another civ has a tech available to trade. You have to dig into a conversation with somebody and propose a trade to see. What a royal crock.

And the AI never wants to keep its tech advantage. There should be some strategy to selling. Sometimes do, sometimes don't. And rarely is it ever a good move to sell a tech during somebody else's turn. Instead of a smarter AI, we get a dumber one to cover one specific activity. BLECH!

I say the "cure" is worse than the disease.

And it can be fixed....in a number of ways....that I can come up with off the top of my head....

1. Provide a screen that lets you know the tech of your opponents. This info is already available, it's just a pain to get. Provide it in a nice form.

2. Have the AI who is tech brokering broker it to the human, too. For Frith's sake, why wasn't it done this way in the first place? "No difference between human and AI players", bull!

3. Only allow teaching a tech to one civ per turn. Thus, I could sell the Japs Navigation and the Egyptians Physics in the same turn, but I couldn't sell 'em both Navigation the same turn. This can even be justified by "only a few scientists understand it well enough to teach it. They can only go one place per turn." This allows for a heckuva lot of strategy, too. "Do I sell to the leading civ first, so I can get the most gold? But then they'll get to sell it, too, and research ahead. If I sell it to some podunk civ, they'll not pay as much, but it won't hurt as bad as they sell it and benefit...." I imagine there might be some details about selling something the turn you learn it or whatever, but the idea is sound, I think.

4. Give the AI enough brains to sometimes hold on to its tech before brokering immediately. The no distinction by tech part is very unimaginative.

5. Convince the AI to only sell tech during someone else's turn for about double its calculated "market price". Add a routine so that asking about a tech will make the AI more likely to broker to you (first) its next turn. (Thus, imitating some better human policy, too.)

6. Give each civ a "willingness to sell" factor that influences how quickly they broker. This is kind of a subset of 4.

I'm sure other minds can come up with many more ideas.

Personally, I think a combination of 1 & 3 would be best. I like the strategy inherent in 3 (but I think it might be a bit difficult to program...or not). 1 is needed for a LOT of reasons (how many turns left on this deal questions, too). And, it should go without saying that 2 is not mutually exclusive and should be included as well (i.e. whatever method the AI uses to decide to whom it should sell should include all players, not just the other AIs).

The current "fix" just feels like a kludge thrown in to try to patch against a certain human strategy with no consideration to how it changes game mechanics. The thing that pisses me off the most, though, is that the AI doesn't offer to sell to the human like it does the other AI (e.g. last night, I had >1000 gold, >350 gold income, luxuries to trade (and trade routes) and of 16 techs the AI bartered, I got offered precisely one that I didn't ask for on my turn. That's pure BS).

I hope my good ideas can show through the angry rant. If/when a thread on ideas for the next patch is started, I'll make sure I include a reasoned approximation of this.

Arathorn

P.S. If you're still here, thanks for reading. 'Twas a catharsis for me to "rant" like this.

[=DrJambo=]

yeah, i have to agree... there are now a number of threads on this subject both here and at civfanatics.com.

but the difficulty lies more on what alternatives there are, which can offer a great enough challenge to the human player. For starters the AI will almost certainly have to strike tougher bargains whilst dealing with the human player as otherwise the tech trading will be all to easy like it was in 1.16f.

but, it's how to do this in a pleasing and logical manner? The current setup where the AI just immediately tech trades with all other AIs no matter what their relevant advancement or economy is like is somewhat disappointing and frustrating. I've offen wondered why a civ will not trade a tech advance for my iron or oil when they blatantly need it...?! I also often find myself loaded with resources, both luxury and strategic, which the AI will refuse to trade anything for.. ?!?!

however, i have noticed that even when an AI civ states that no deal can be made, i have managed on occasion to sway their mind by making my own deals up.... i.e. not using the "what will you take for Combustion?" option, but instead making my own deals up from scratch (albeit very costly)!

i'd still rather have this than the blatantaly easy 1.16f level regarding tech trading. I never failed to build the Universal Sufferage or Hoover Damn with 1.16f, because by the Industrial era i always had the tech lead and once you got ahead it was possible to stay ahead very easily by selling tech to AI to fund exorbatant science rates. Once this started , this essentially continued until end of the game...BoOOOOoOoRRIng indeed!

so, its better, but by no means perfect. A way to keep it as challenging as 1.17f, but fairer, would be preferable...but is this possible?? Who knows?!. Previously the AI was very poor in the end game (industrial onwards) and any change from this is very welcome.

[DrFell]

I agree with all the civs having the same techs due to too much tech trading. It's not realistic. Did the Europeans start trading all their weapons technologies with the Aztecs or Inca? Did they help China get up to date on it's military, for a small price? Did they give the Zulus rifles? The result is there is no 'colonising' feel in the game, all civs seem exactly the same (same techs, same strategies, etc.). If you find a civ on an island you best not give them contact with any other civs, or they'll just acquire all the techs from the other civs for next to nothing and be up to date in a few turns. Having a tech lead is worthless too, as you are just losing out on potential cash and slowing your research rate down.

[yin26]

Soren giveth...and Soren taketh away.