Thinking to yourself.... how?

Dauphin · February 21, 2002, 18:43

I was having a discussion with a friend of mine today about thought processes. Usually I think things in images. If I am trying to solve a puzzle, add up numbers I use abstract imagery to do it. When people are talking I abstractly see the scene in my head.

I hardly ever think of things in words, and if I do I end up talking to myself. As a result I am a bit slow on puns based on words that sound similar, but a lot quicker on "visual" camparison jokes.

Anyway what precipitated the discussion was my friend said that he knew he could speak fluent French because he could think in French. I commented that I don't even "think" in English.

To me language is a nothing more than a communication interface. That is, without language you can still think, but expression is hampered.

So how do you think? Or more philosophically - What is thinking?

Bereta_Eder · February 21, 2002, 18:51

Don't know but I was always getting pissed at those old fart full of themselves linguistic academic dinosaur professor who kept claiming that "if you can't say it, you can't feel it and you can't think it".

Although I never had any problems with (Greek) words and vocabulary and I egotistically take pride at what I think of as great personal eloquence(gotta think you have something

), they always got on my nerves these paleolithic academic remains.

So let's say a simple farmer who only had basic education and never got around to reading Aristotle's Rhetorics can't feel the joy of his daughter getting married for example simply because he can't "express" it with more than 100 words?

bull

and of course what about a fully distored G-string or dancing or singing, or painting, sculpture etc?[/minor threadjack]

General Ludd · February 21, 2002, 18:57

Mainly in words, but I've noticed that since begining to read books on a regular basis I can imagine images and scenes much better and more often then I used to be able to. But I started reading around the age of 15 - so it's possible that it's not really relevant, since alot's changing in the body around that age, regardless.

BeBro · February 21, 2002, 19:25

In words and images. Sometimes, real great parts of books/stories create something like a "movie" in my mind - I even can imagine the right sounds/noises which would fit exactly to a certain atmosphere.

Hm, hope that is not a case for the doctors...

Dis · February 21, 2002, 19:29

I think in terms of naked women

MrFun · February 21, 2002, 20:00

I sometimes think in terms of naked men when I'm not thinking of something else.

lightblue · February 21, 2002, 20:09

I'll post more coherently tomorrow when I've sobered up a bit, but I definitely think in English by now. I dream in English as well (which was kind of weird when it first happened after about 6 months in England). Now that i can think in onw foreign language I find that my other foreign languages have improved asw ell, eventhough I hardly ever practise them.

I think in words in general, in pictures when I am thinking about a specific situation.

Juggernaut · February 21, 2002, 20:54

An interesting question is; since you don't choose which thoughts that will enter your mind yourself - who the hell does?

Thinking is like playing a tape and we're the taperecorders, IMO.

General Ludd · February 21, 2002, 20:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Juggernaut
An interesting question is; since you don't choose the endless streams of thoughts entering your mind yourself - who the hell does?

Your subconscious mind.

Richard Bruns · February 21, 2002, 20:57

I think it is a matter of education. I used to read a lot of books, so as a result I used to think excusively in the English language, but that has changed a little. After learning a lot of math I can think to myself in terms of math; seeing the equations themselves and the language of math. Sometimes if I see a lot of movies or play a lot of computer games my thoughts are more purely visual.

A similar thing sometimes happens with music or foreign languages; my thoughts are best expressed in a verbal but non-english format.

"Freude schöner Götterfunken,
Tochter aus Elysium,
...."

Basically the mode of your thoughts will reflect the data that you take in. No surprise there.

Dis · February 21, 2002, 21:01

hmm. well let me analize this.

When I read english, I think in terms of images. Whether it be a description of a historical figure, or a fictional book. I try to picture it in my mind.

One problem I have with foreign languages (I'm only familiar with one) is when I read that I tend to convert them to English words. And in turn I have to convert that into images. This slows me up. Hence why I'm not very good at speaking spanish to other spanish speaking people. It's much easier to read it- although I do that slow as well. I would like to be able to convert Spanish words directly into images. Part of the problem I blame on the U.S. school system

. This would have been much easier if I took Spanish in elementary school. But I started learning in high school.

DaShi · February 21, 2002, 21:19

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
Don't know but I was always getting pissed at those old fart full of themselves linguistic academic dinosaur professor who kept claiming that "if you can't say it, you can't feel it and you can't think it".

Although I never had any problems with (Greek) words and vocabulary and I egotistically take pride at what I think of as great personal eloquence(gotta think you have something

), they always got on my nerves these paleolithic academic remains.

So let's say a simple farmer who only had basic education and never got around to reading Aristotle's Rhetorics can't feel the joy of his daughter getting married for example simply because he can't "express" it with more than 100 words?

bull

and of course what about a fully distored G-string or dancing or singing, or painting, sculpture etc?[/minor threadjack]

Reminds me of when I got rejected from a medical school because I pointed out a crucial flaw in one of my interviewer's theories on thought processes. Though I did nod politely at his poor defense. Stupid state schools.

Yes, I'm getting meaner.

JohnT · February 21, 2002, 21:22

I think in words. If I'm running an idea through my head (pros and cons) I run it through like a discussion.

MrFun · February 21, 2002, 21:25

Ok, I have my serious answer now that I'm not thinking of naked men.

This semester, I am taking an Argumentation and Debate course. Next week, we will be discussing language from our textbook. The definition I have available is the following:

language: systematic coordination of grammar and vocabulary used to convey meaning

To elaborate on that definition, I have also read about the nature of language in the textbook:

1) people who share same language share set of cultural assumptions and way of thinking
2) words function on many levels and have capacity to change recipients' minds in different ways
3) language and meaning--words by themselves have no intrinsic meaning and only acquire meaning when people use them to describe their world
4) language and abstraction--langauge serves as a vehicle for conveying meaning between a source and receiver
5) connotations and denotations--when constructing an argument, one must deal with meaning of the language as he/she understands it, and how the audience understands it

So from what I have learned so far, I have come to the conclusion in my opinion, that we not only speak in our language, but we also think within the frame of whatever is our native language.

SOURCE: Critical Thinking and Communication--The Use of Reason in Argument, 4th Edition by Edward S. Inch and Barbara Warnick

Rogan Josh · February 21, 2002, 22:09

Quote:

Originally posted by MrFun
1) people who share same language share set of cultural assumptions and way of thinking

I don't think this one is true. I honesty believe i have more in common with regard to cultural assumptions with Germans than with Americans. (I do admittedly think in German if I have been speaking it a lot but I grew p with English.)

Ramo · February 21, 2002, 22:55

It entirely depends upon the system that I'm thinking about.

If it can be represented in terms of a simpler but more precise language, like math, I try to think that way.

But primarily, I think in English.

Urban Ranger · February 21, 2002, 23:19

For me it depends. If I need to dwell on abstract concepts it's not possible to visualise them, even though I am predominately a visual person.

Most often I don't really find myself consciously thinking, other than when I am doing something heavily mental (such as playing a game of bridge).

Skanky Burns · February 22, 2002, 04:07

I mostly think in English, and rarely in symbols / images.

Dauphin · February 22, 2002, 16:36

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnT
I think in words. If I'm running an idea through my head (pros and cons) I run it through like a discussion.

But what about when you run things through quickly.

Many a time I can see where someone is going with a discussion point before they say it. If I were auto-completing the sentences in my head it would take longer than it actually does.

How about when think about taking a shot at golf, or shooting a hoop in basketball, or any other sport, do you think. "I am going to aim for that spot there". Many people probably say that in their mind, but if thats all the thinking you do then you are not going to hit the target, because you take into consideration and think over loads more factors.

Immortal Wombat · February 22, 2002, 16:59

I don't think.
I can arrive at the correct 'output' to every 'input' without my brain getting in on the act at all.

Urban Ranger · February 23, 2002, 00:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
How about when think about taking a shot at golf, or shooting a hoop in basketball, or any other sport, do you think.

That'd involve expertise in some kind of motor skills, which are different from thinking about something.

Conscious thoughts usually enter the picture during preparation and reflection. The rest of the time your subconscious mind just takes over. You don't think how you will write an alphabet when you write it. You may think about how to write it before you do it, or when you study what you wrote to improve your handwriting.

Exceptions occur when you are learning some kind of motor skills. That's why when an infant starts learning how to write he writes slowly.

MrFun · February 23, 2002, 04:53

Language is an integral part of any culture. And because cultural values are so prevelant in our modes of thinking, I would think that language is also part of our thinking modes.

Stefu · February 23, 2002, 05:18

Words, naturally.

For some reason, there are certain things I think in English, even though it's not even my natural language. Weird.

Kaak · February 23, 2002, 05:30

I would propose that thinking has to be done in words. If you translate the words to images, you are still manipulating the words. A blue sky. What is blue?

Descartes said "I think, therefore i am." He knew he thought because he could doubt. what did he doubt? his senses. Images are based on sense perception and experience. He doubted both of these, so he could not have define thinking as anything other than a cognative activity expressed with words...

Eli · February 23, 2002, 05:57

I think in English, and I blame you all for that.

Dauphin · February 23, 2002, 08:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

That'd involve expertise in some kind of motor skills, which are different from thinking about something.

You'd have to calculate things though. When someone throws something towards you, your brain automatically calculates a parabolic curve trajectory to estimate where to catch it. You in effect think where to catch it - consciously or subconciously. Whether you can or not is down to motor skills.

Quote:

If you translate the words to images, you are still manipulating the words. A blue sky. What is blue?

So a person who never learns any languages can not imagine a blue sky, green field, etc.. in their mind? Or even express their though of a blue sky and green field by taking a blue and green crayon and drawing them.

IMHO language is not a prerequisite to thought and expression.

Az · February 23, 2002, 08:53

did you know that we , human beings, do not take conscious decisions? all decisions are made on an unconscious level , while the efect of 'free will' , and 'dicision making' is only a side effect , something we feel is happening while it's not . there was an experiment that proved that.

Do you understand the meaning of this ?!

Stefu · February 23, 2002, 09:23

Quote:

there was an experiment that proved that.

I'd be interested in hearing about this experiment.

Az · February 23, 2002, 09:39

I was also ****ing astonished when I heard that .

It involved a simple desicion making , and cortex activity measurment , IIRC.

If you're really interested , and you end up finding some material about , please let me know.

all being said, the experiment is considered to be rather controversial (obviously) , despite being made by an acknowledge specialist in this field.

( I know details I say look merky , but It was on a TV show on the science channel , quite a while ago......

)

Juggernaut · February 23, 2002, 10:24

Quote:

did you know that we , human beings, do not take conscious decisions? all decisions are made on an unconscious level , while the efect of 'free will' , and 'dicision making' is only a side effect , something we feel is happening while it's not . there was an experiment that proved that.

Exactly, a living being always acts according to one's preferences, preferences are gained through genes and environment, thus, no free will.

On the same note, there are no such things as "luck", or "chance", those are just substitutes for non-sufficent information.