Portuguese Civ

[Jay Bee]

Sargon, please think right. How do you think an empire can be created and, more importantly, sustained without a strong military? How many examples can you name? When was America discovered? When did the European powers start grabbing chunks of land in the Americas? Why? Never heard of the Italian campaigns? St. Quentin? Lepanto? Man, oh man... you can argue about so many things, but to deny that the Spanish empire was the world power during the XVI c and part of the XVII is utter ignorance. Precisely it was the 30-years that put an end to Spanish preeminence in the battlefield. You've got to go earlier than that. BTW, the Tercios never fought at home. That comment implies that your knowledge on the subject is still minimal.

The best books on this era are written in English by English authors, so don't tell me you can't find anything in that language. Look for people like Henry Kamen or John Elliott. I am asking you to go to a library. The net is not the best place to look for accurate info. I don't know about German, but the best books I have read about the Spanish Middle Ages are from German authors. It would be shocking to learn that German historians do not care about the Habsburg family. Quite unbelievable, to be honest.

As to your comments about the Armada... I am so tired of people distorting the whole affair that I was going to let that go, but a friend of mine provided me with this link:
http://www.bezzer.co.uk/armada/reason.htm

It's not a scholar link and as I pointed out above the net is not the best place to look for accurate info. The point is the link is from a British source and that's what makes it valuable in this particular regard. In general, the page is quite interesting.

[kIndal]

Originally posted by sargon2
Tell me what wars were won by the Spanish empire in europe

Catholic Monarc:
-War of Granada (1492)(probably bigger and stronger that some German States of this era thanks to turkish and berbers helps).
-Conquer of North African cities, Melilla (1497), Oran (1509), Mers-el-Kebir (1505) and stablicing protectorated in Bougie, Tripoli and Argel (well it isnt Europe but its near)
-War of Naples agaisnt France, thanks to the battles of Cerignola and Garellano (1503) Naples formed part of Spain.
-War of Navarre (1512) against Naverre and France, Spain conquered Navarre and added it to Spain.

Charles I of Spain, V of HRE:

-War of Castilian Comoners (1519-1521)
-Revolt of Germanias of Valencia (1520-1523) (these two ones were civil wars so won by spanish anyway)
-Four wars between Charles and Francis I of France (1521-1544)
-The conquer of Tunis (1535)

I havent added Charles wars in Germany because it wasnt Spanish wars, although, a lot of imperial troops, generals and money were Spanish.

Philip II

-Battle of Lepanto against Ottomans (1571)
-Two wars of Granada against moriscos, turkish and berbers.
-Campaigns of Alba and Farnesio in Netherlands
-Wars of religion of France.
-Adding of Portugal (1581) to Spain.

Philip III

It was a peaceful reign where was signed peace with Netherlands, England or France. So there were no wars.

Philip IV

well, here the main conflict was the 30 years war.
-First campaigns against Netherlands with examples as conquers of Breda of Bergen op Zoom.
-War of MAntua agaisnt France.
-Conquer of Palatinate by Spinola.
-Habsburg victories in White Mountain, Nordlingen, Fuenterrabia.
-Sufocating of revolts of Catalonia, Naples or Sicily.

But this war suppose the lost of being the world Superpower for Spain. In fact, in this war was the first time that Spanish Tercios was defeated in a battlefield by other army, Rocroi, against French, not against Gustavus Adolphus as sargon2 had said, it isnt the same defeat Spanish troops or regimients that defeat the Spanish army. At same it isnt the same defeat a army with English mercenaries or aliies that defeat english army.

[Ecowiz Returns]

Sorry kindal, but I have to correct you in one small point:

Phillipe II:
The adding of Portugal was done through succession right and without any great battle.
You can't really talk of a war here.

As for sargo:
I'm sorry that, while your history books talk about the art and scientific development in the Italian Cities it simply overlooks the amazing exploration efforts done by both Portuguese and Spanish in those same years. which indeed is odd since most of that development was only possible because of the richess they brought to Europe.

You should note that, prior to the discouvery of the Cape Route to India, all trade with Asia was done through Arab routes. The trade and military actions of the Portuguese in the Indic Ocean simply deprived the Arabs of their previleged position. Portugal was the first European Nation to have a vice-roy in India and had one for almost 400 years. While they were there, they closed all Arab trade routes from either the Red Sea or Ormuz "Gulf", making Portugal to ONLY European direct trader of Indian products. Meanwhile, no other European nation made an exploration effort, for at least another 100 years. That with the tiny home territory Portugal still has today! If not with the strenght of numbers, something else must have allowed the Portuguese to achieve that.

You should also note that in those days Portugal and Spain had the nerve to split the Word in two, among both nations. I don't see how they were to be allowed to do that if they weren't regarded as significant powers.

[Shaka Naldur]

sargon2,

read a history book.

[jasev]

Sargon2, your knowledge of Europan History is really pathetic.

got a polish friend he is also convinced that his country got a powerfull overwhelming history equal to the French or German

He's right. Poland was never a world power but a big regional power; located between the Teutonic Knights (Germans) and the Principate of Moscow (Russians), they achieved a lot of victories against both of them. Never heard about Ladislas Jagellón? During his reign, Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lituania were united, becoming one of the biggest european powers. They never fought against french, but I think the military powers at that time could be similar.
And a country that is ubicated between Russians and Germans and achieved to survive shouldn't be despised.

I was going to argue with you about your opinions concerning spanish history, but I think Jay Bee did it quite good.

[yaroslav]

Originally posted by sargon2
PS: it's not that easy to get something about the Tercios in general in Englisch or German. Spanish keeps closed to. Do u know a good link in English where an article is about them.

Here you have a link so you can learn about the Tercios:

http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/TercioUK.html

Poland has a great empire in the middle ages and these is a fact that you can learn in any book of medieval history.

If you want I can search you a link...

[Giovanni August]

I agree with the spanish supporters!

Spain was for a while the major power of Europe and they reached their golden age probably in the late 1500's. They had lots of the Americas beside the Brazilian coast that was portuguese, all of South Italy, thay fought a war against France for that, for some times thay had in their hand also Northern Italian cities like Milano (Milan), that were ruled by what in Italy we called "vicere" that means "vice-king" and the king they refer to is the Spanish king.

And last but not least they have the most amazing Soccer teams like Real Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia

Saluti

[sargon2]

What makes a superpower of its time. Its not if u have defeated some native primitiv people in America or Africa. The point of proving is europe at least until the 19th Cent. A superpower dominates its neighbouring countries. Its is permanently expanding from its corelands. The Problem of your spanisch empire is that it was in long periods of its best times in personalunion of the habsburgians who were German leading state at that time. So they took spanish and other forces for all of their interests. That already makes in long periods a single Spanisch Civ impossible, for what is its capital until 1564 Vienna . So its hard to reveal the pure spanish effords. They were only a helping reservoir. But 1564 a single spanish history started. They got by heritage Spain, parts of the Netherlands and some isolated little-states in Italy. Nothing conquered. But they got a powerfull base. In endless struggles against France and the Spanish Netherlandian Freedomfighters they spent their gold/silver. May be they got some successes agaist the Maures and France. But 1580/1 they lost the Spanish Netherlands and got therefor Portugal which they lost 1640 again. From 1598 on there was a decline of power. Against the uprising French power they became ressesiv. From 1700 on Spain became the playball and battlefield of foreign nations and interests. That makes from 1564 to 1700 136 years of independent power. And what were the effords. They lost the Spanish Netherlands, got and lost Portugal, got and lost areas betwenn itself and France. OK in Northafrica and the western Mediterrainian they were dominating (few european rivals). But already 1581 (Armada-case) they lost their seapower state. Everybody identifies the colonial empire of Spain with its superpower image, but there were only 17 years of a independent spanish seapower.
I posted mainly on 4 periods of Spanish History:

1. : some befor 1492-1512: its an independent period when it consolidated its power, reconquered its country and built up its colonies
2.: 1512-1564: Spain is one of the up to 4-5 crownlands of the Germany-based Habsburgians. Its object not subject.
3.: 1564-1700:a spanish line of the Habsburgians became independent, they brought more with them then Spain ever got.
After some successes in the beginning they lost more and more of its substance. Lost the Spanish Netherlans and lost its position against France.
4.: 1700- : Spain again becomes a playball and Battlefield of foreign interests.

A short time of consolidation in its own country. Later on some gains and many losts. And again and again it became an object. That is an interesting meaningfull nation. But no superpower. It just didn't dominate europe. France, Germany, Babylonia, USA, Iroqois, Russia and all other Civilization-players did dominate its continent in different times.

@jasev: every country got its better times. Poland did never defeat a German country only a group of plundering and conquering holy Knights mainly Germans but from all over europe called the German Order. That guyes conquered the ancient Prussia, a baltic people, before it got heired to the Brandenburgians. Later on they tyrranized Poland and Lituania. That went together under lituanian leadership and drove that order more and more back until that accepted the polish royal sovereignity. Besides they got some success in campaigns against Russia and defending wars against the Mongolians and Ottomans. But if u compare that to the complex and thrilling history of France and Germany than u got no knowledge of european history through all ages.

Read a history book. No u should read.
Thats silly folks.
I'm not dogmatic. Just give me Facts. The cultural point is a good one. Spain got an extraordinary influence on Barok.

[Jay Bee]

Sargon, you are making a big fool of yourself here. It's okay to ignore things, it's not so to be selfish, derogatory and arrogant. Continue this way and you're gonna make it into many ignore lists. Good nite sire.

[sargon2]

On the colonial point again. If spain will ever dominating by 50% the latin-american market of today, than they were an economical superpower. But 16th Cent. latinamerica was a poor deserted land of plantages and slavlabour, that was explored and brought its resources to Spain. No compare to India and China of that days. Its like u said Russia is important becaus of Siberia and its resources - that take such a huge part of your worldmap, that is just quantity not quality- but Russia is that important because of its relativly smal european part, the big trained population and its military that dominated the last more than hundred years east europe and mutch more.

[sargon2]

Don't get me wrong I give nothing on historical reputation. I can't make an intelecual link to people that think they were better than others because of the history of their country. Only today counts and what u do of your life.
When I spoke on Poland as not so dominating in history it is not meanly meant. They concentrated on themselves and did less harm on other people. That the Italian soldiers were such lousy in WWII is no bad grade, occupied land doesn't make happier, but I know that many Italians are now angry about me because of their machisme.
My country got highest successes and deepest defeats. So what.
That to beeing selfish and arrogant.
About derogatory is difficult. To me Spain didn't play such an important role, so I minimize their role by arguments is that already derogativ. i'm still not against Spain, its one of the best, but that is my result.

My slogan is just funny. Its from a national-critical band, that is kidding Germans that feel superior. But nevertheless I think Germany is one of the best, either.

[Waku]

"Madrid is the queen of parliaments, all the world serves her and she serves nobody"

And her haughtines was just what made her fall. To deny The History will only lead others to make the same mistake.

[sargon2]

That's right about history.

And all serve spanish queens

[Shaka Naldur]

Originally posted by sargon2
Don't get me wrong I give nothing on historical reutation. I can't make an intelecual link to people that think they were better than others because of the history of their country. Only today counts and what u do of your life.
When I spoke on Poland as not so dominating in history it is not meanly meant. They concentrated on themselves and did less harm on other people. That the Italian soldiers were such lousy in WWII is no bad grade, occupied land doesn't make happier, but I know that many Italians are now angry about me because of their machisme.
My country got highest successes and deepest defeats. So what.
That to beeing selfish and arrogant.
About derogatory is difficult. To me Spain didn't play such an important role, so I minimize their role by arguments is that already derogativ. i'm still not against Spain, its one of the best, but that is my result.

My slogan is just funny. Its from a national-critical band, that is kidding Germans that feel superior. But nevertheless I think Germany is one of the best, either.

did we say that we are superior to other people because of the history of our country?
because some italian are mad with the germans wasn´t spain a major power??

[Giovanni August]

Originally posted by sargon2
That the Italian soldiers were such lousy in WWII is no bad grade, occupied land doesn't make happier, but I know that many Italians are now angry about me because of their machisme.
My country got highest successes and deepest defeats. So what.
That to beeing selfish and arrogant.

Actually i can only agree on that. We didn't fought a good war, our military was not (and still is not) strong enough to defend our own country, we surely couldn't conquer others (read: Greece)!
Some Italians may be angry with you if you say that, because we don't really like to speak about that period of our history.
We were probably more of a weight for Nazi Germany, cause the Germans had to send their troops all around in the North Africans Italian colonies, Greece and wherever Mussolini was attacking.
It is just a low point in our history.... Italians are not soldiers and I'm happy with that

Saluti

[Harovan]

Sargon2, are you really from Berlin-Kreuzberg, the multicultural center of Berlin? I can't believe that, when I read your nationalistic babble. And I agree, this way you make an idiot of yourself. These boards are multi-national, respect this and try not to be so f'n ignorant when talking about other nations.

Btw, I don't see the World kissed at the place, where Germany is. God must rather have kicked the World at this place. And yes, I am from Germany too.

[sargon2]

@ Ralph: it´s a quote man, just translated. And I distanced from it in a recent post, it is ironically meant, by Die Prinzen, I already wrote on that. U should read more carefully.
U think I#M not respecting different cultures. Man we are at a american site and here counts freedom of speech. If anybody says that anything is great. Than it must be possible to others to relativate that. So who is the idiot now.
Spain is to me an important power. But it never dominated europe and that is neccessary until 19. Cent to be a superpower. If u think that is already hostil to other nations, then u got a problem of tolerance, not me.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by sargon2
U should read more carefully.

You are right, or to translate it in your language, "U r right". When the first half of a post is pure crap I usually don't read further.

So who is the idiot now.

Care to make a poll? I grant you to abstain myself!

... then u got a problem of tolerance, not me.

I'm intolerant indeed, but where's the problem?

[Jay Bee]

Originally posted by sargon2
Man we are at a american site and here counts freedom of speech.

Silliness goes on an on
This is not an American site. Even if it was, it's privately-owned so the only ones who decide about "freedom of speech" are the owners.

Keep on talking about things you ignore, please, you are one amusing dude

[sargon2]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Care to make a poll? I grant you to abstain myself!

First I thought u were an opportunist, for I don't know where u got your opinion from. So I thought u just took the opinion of the majority of the mainly spanish or hispanic posts. Truth=majority. I remembered the state of my teacher who said if majority is always right dirt must be delicious, billions of flies can't err. .
But now I think u r right. That doesn't bring us to truth but it shows a state of wether we conceived anybody. I'll try to make a poll.

Correction:
There is one good aspect of our discussion. I and maybe other people thought on spanish history. And its highly inetresting. Standing for main development of the world.
I did keep on collecting facts.
My estimation of the state of the colonies was some wrong. I still think that colonies at least at the beginning Centuries did count mutch less than motherlands, for they were less populated and only punctually technically developed. So the landmass of colonies don't equal the strongly developed regions of europe.

I heared a lot on how the north-american collonies were managed, and some on cardinal La Casa and his fight against latin-american burocraty. So I just generalized that there was only a lousy management and development - the only idea was to get money out of it.
Following my new informations the Spain Crown did develop her colonies extraordinary, and thus they got a better quality. By example up to 1/3 of the Spanish population went americabound, and built up a new existence. That were mainly normal and flexible people who did a good job. The rumour that the administartion of the Spanish Crown had been ineffectiv and superficial was spread by big landowners who tried to take power in the independent wars. That rumours takes up today. Even me did follow.


My mistake on regarding Spanish militaristic history is that I expected that Spain had should spent it enormous resources on their military expanding, if they got non in europe they must have failed. But the truth was they weren't interested in long bloody fights against France and Britania, they just spent their resources in culture and colonial development and god knows what else.

But my result remains the same, who doesn't dominat neighbouring countries is no superpower. No matter wether that good or bad, just by deffinition.
They were a major european power.

[sargon2]

So, now I have made a poll on that. The first of electors for
"Spain has been a major european power not dominating europe. " was me.
Now what about You? What do U chose


to the poll:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=44895

[Harovan]

You take me wrong sargon2. I care less what you write. Everybody can make a mistake, and if it concerns history of Spain, I tend to believe the Spaniards rather than you. But that is not the point. I have discussed earlier in this thread and also wasn't always right. I stepped in this discussion, because I don't like how you write. You may it not mean this way, but it sounds like you want to put down other countries, namely Spain and Poland. And this attitude comes along with your signature. It may be meant funny, but without an explanation it sounds super-nationalistic. But alas, there is no explanation, and who knows Die Prinzen? I have nothing against you, but suggest you to think a bit about this subject.

[jasev]

OK, it's time to end with this discussion.

"The Imperial Spain", by J.H. Elliott, Edward Arnold Publishers (London), 1963

Translation into english (by me) from the original spanish translation

Prologue:
... The contemporary observers noticed that change. "We see today"-wrote Macchiavelli- "Fernando, king of Aragón, today king of spain, who deserves to be considered as a new prince, because he turned from a little and weak king into the greatest monarch of the Christianity". Ferdinand's embassadors were respected and his armies feared. And in the new World, the conquerors were building on their own an empire that had to change the power balance in the old continent. During a few fabulous decades, Spain achieved to be the biggest power in the world. During that decades, Spain would be Europe's owner, would colonize overseas territories, would create a government system to administrate the biggest -and most dispersed- empire know in the world at that times, and would produce a new type of civilization that would be an unique apportation to european cultural tradition.

I know my translation is quite poor, but I think you'll understand the main parts. I hope it will be enough to convince you, Sargon2. If not... well, I will assume it's you who has a problem.

[Jay Bee]

After reading the childish blabbering that Sargon wrote about me in the other thread I had decided to definitively step out and simply ignore this guy for the rest of times. Then I came to this thread and read what Sir Ralph wrote. Thanks SR for summing it up so well.

Jasev, don't bother. I already suggested him to read John Elliott (Sir John Elliott ) and look at what he did instead...

[Dauphin]

The British/English were one of the greatest empires ever seen, but they never did anything in Europe - in terms of land conquest.

Judging Spain on merely European conquest would be wrong, but ignoring that they did have European conquests is even funnier.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Jay Bee


Silliness goes on an on
This is not an American site.

I missed the comment first time (I skipped over most of his posts). I guess he didn't ever question why this place is called Apolyton (which is oddly enough Greek - meaning Ultimate) and why the two owners are Greek and Canadian.

[kIndal]

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
Phillipe II:
The adding of Portugal was done through succession right and without any great battle.
You can't really talk of a war here.

Well, really it was a small campaign of 2 months, there were only one important battle, Alcantara, in the doors of Lisbon, because the others two sieges (Vilaviçosa and Setubal) were very shorts and Portugueses surrendered almost without battle.
I have added it as a small victoriuos campaign

[Beren]

Originally posted by Giovanni August
Italians are not soldiers

You can say that again. They lost territory in WW I fighting against Austria-Hungary, which had three fronts and a military that sucked.

[Dauphin]

Reminds me of a joke my grandfather told me about the early WW2 Afrika campaign.

The Italian tanks were very advanced having a top speed of 60mph. To maintain performance it had to have five gears. In addition the Italian army put in a forward gear just in case it was ever required to advance.

[Ecowiz Returns]

Originally posted by kIndal
Well, really it was a small campaign of 2 months, there were only one important battle, Alcantara, in the doors of Lisbon, because the others two sieges (Vilaviçosa and Setubal) were very shorts and Portugueses surrendered almost without battle.
I have added it as a small victoriuos campaign

We both know the all business was more political than anything.

Phillip had the most legitimate stake to the Portuguese Thrown as the most direct heir to it. On the other side, most of the Portuguese Noblesmen were, at the time, fancying the sight of an amazing Empire reaching all known continents, so most of them joined Phillips claim to the thrown, without a fight.

Finally, there was never a military surrender, because Portugal was never a part of Spain: Phillip was I of Portugal, and Second of Spain. the crowns were seperated throughout the Phillipin Ruling in the Peninsula. When Phillip III of Portugal, IV of Spain attemped to merge the crowns, he failled, and Portugal had, again a Portuguese King (D. João IV).

So I prefer to call it a convenient marriage, instead of a military victory.

However, Spain really seems to have conquered Portugal's role, at least in this thread. I really thought it was about Portugal, but people ended discussing the importance of Spain.
We are seriously lacking more Portuguese Apolytoners.