Spankings

[MrFun]

Just because there was an increase from the 1960's in parents following more loving parenting techniques, does not mean that there was no parallel increase in children within other families who were being disciplined by physical violence.

Is there a source available where there were statistics compiled to show the correlation between the rise of loving parental techniques and the increase of teenage violence, as you seemed to have claimed?

Unfortunately, I have been unable to find a reliable statistical source for my claim at this point.

[blackice]

Actually it is being shown that the lack of the father figure is more responsible for bad behaviour than anything else. Second spanking is not abuse or violent unless it reaches those levels...

Children learn well from their respective parents one thing learned by a mild swat is boundries, limits. Conversely one could say then that the children who push other children into swatting them lack this type of limits, boundries.

Crimials it is being shown have chemical inbalances not the mild swat, abuse maybe but not the mild swat...

[blackice]

dp sorry...

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by MrFun


Just because there was an increase from the 1960's in parents following more loving parenting techniques, does not mean that there were also an increase in children within other families who were being disciplined by physical violence.

No of course it doesn't

Physical discipline is a loving parenting technique.

Maybe parents who don't use it don't love their children enough

One of our neighbours never hit her kids because she said "they would hate her." Guess what? Now they're grown up and they hate her

[Gibsie]

Yeah, but let's face it, when your children develop some intelligence (it'll happen to hydey one day...) they'll hate you like the rest of us do

[Alexander's Horse]

Actually Nicholas started calling me a "meanie" when I smacked him i.e. "You're a meanie Dad."

Those beautiful brown eyes full of tears, the bottom lip out, God that hurt me

[Darsnan]

Originally posted by MrFun
You don't think that children learn behavior from their parents then??

I agree with you 100% that children learn from their parents, both overtly and covertly, as well as learning from the environments that they are exposed to. I would also add that very little restrains them from exploiting this knowledge to its fullest. I will now expand upon this comment: my wife subscribes to the approach which you are suggesting of not spanking the children, and instead trying to rationalize with them as to what should be done in a certain situation. When she has exhausted every avenue of trying to convince our three children as to the correct thing to do, and it still has not been done, she turns to me for assistance. I then invoke The Voice, the one I use one step before the spankings begin. The problem is typically resolved at this point, otherwise it is escalated one more step.....
Regardless, it is my observation that the children (and not just mine - I observe this behavior in other children as well) are very astute at learning/ probing what they can and cannot do: they understand that my wife will not correct their behavior by physical means. They simply use this to their advantage. They also understand that I will not tolerate this, and they respond accordingly. Is this what leads to juvenile delinquents and adult criminals? Actually, I think to the contrary, it is a lack of discipline which leads to this: if children observe that they can "get away with it" for the cost of sitting thru a "rationalization of what is right", they will graduate to the juvenile level of "getting away with it" for the cost of the intermediate step of "rationalization of what is right" which is typically slaps on the wrists for petty crimes/ hooliganism. This learned/ reinforced behavior then graduates to adulthood where we see true crime attempted perpetrated.
My theory, anyways.
Regardless, a good video to see is "Bill Cosby: Himself". Early '80's fare when he was dealing with his rugrats. The caricatures he gives of his wife are hilarious! Give's a good education of what its like to deal with kids while giving a lot of laughs at the same time.

[Alexander's Horse]

Smacking is a last resort for us. It usually substitutes for a dangerous thing - i.e. if little Johny is putting forks into power points and ignoring repeated verbal warnings its better he suffer a little physical pain and humiliation than get the message through 230 volts of raw power

[blackice]

What propels young kids to commit such cold-hearted acts of violence? To answer this, I reviewed several studies which revealed a link between violent behavior and fatherlessness. For example, public health researchers in Albuquerque, New Mexico studied the social background of elementary schoolchildren involved in violent behavior and found that "compared with matched control students, children who exhibited violent misbehavior in school were eleven times as likely not to live with their fathers and six times as likely to have parents who were not married."

Father involvement is a powerful influence on the development of children. As Shawn Johnston, forensic psychologist in Sacramento, put it, the bottom line behind these blood-chilling acts is the "fundamental failure to socialize boys at risk. And the research is absolutely clear that the one human being the most capable of curbing the antisocial aggression of a child is his or her biological father."

You will find endless studies coming to the same conclusion Myths you have you love em...
Just one search result:

http://www.google.com/search?num=30&...=Google+Search

On top of that you will see many a research concluding that in fact "child abuse" is greater than double "single mothers" homes. Your answers to increase in violence with children can be found there not in spanking. In Canada the antispaking pc'ers have lost the fight...why? because most parents see the results of a mild swat...

Boundaries can be found in other ways rough horse play with Dad and Dad stressing when enough is enough is also a "violent" heh way of taming the screw so to speak.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Okay Einstein. Explain why youth violence exploded precisely when parents started following trendy theories in the sixties about not physically disciplining their children.

Your "all violence is bad" line was a slogan of that period.

There is a world of difference between smacking a child and mugging a pensioner.

Or, as we say in the States, even a dog knows the difference between being kicked and being stumbled over.

I voted for the "I spank my kids" option, though Sophie is quite a while away from being big enough and mature enough to understand a swat on the butt.

You know, my wife was spanked in public and you can bet that she never had to get disciplined twice on any issue! 'Twasn't the pain, it was the humiliation.

[blackice]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Smacking is a last resort for us. It usually substitutes for a dangerous thing - i.e. if little Johny is putting forks into power points and ignoring repeated verbal warnings its better he suffer a little physical pain and humiliation than get the message through 230 volts of raw power

Exactly as with screaming at them which is also abuse unless of course for the same reasoning you have used.

[Alexander's Horse]

You make very good points John. Its true that its more the humiliation which "hurts" more - especially if you smack to make a "noise" rather than hurt, which is the right way imo.

My oldest recently said to me that when I hit him it didn't hurt much - I asked him if he wanted me to hit him harder and he dropped the subject

[Gibsie]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Actually Nicholas started calling me a "meanie" when I smacked him i.e. "You're a meanie Dad."

Those beautiful brown eyes full of tears, the bottom lip out, God that hurt me

Q. What does Alexander's Horse tell his son when he comes crying to his daddy with a pair of black eyes?

A. Nothing- he's already told him twice.

[JohnT]

Gibsie, that was quite uncalled for!

[Alexander's Horse]

Its okay John, I love the spanking troll - I have to take the flak - its a small price to pay

[Gibsie]

Just having a bit of silly fun with a (tasteless) joke I heard a while ago JohnT, nothing to worry about- but I wouldn't dare troll like that on anyone less experienced with trolling than the Horse, really

[JohnT]

There is nothing funny about beating kids, man. Horse is talking discipline and you make jokes about abuse. Sorry if I fail to see the humor in it.

[Gibsie]

Let's hear a condemnation for the following one-liner from AH then:

"I really wish I didn't have to hit my kids - but they are deaf and dumb."

[Alexander's Horse]

Anyway back to the topic. I have boys. If I had girls I couldn't hit them

That would be a job for Mrs Horse

[devilmunchkin]

i've often thought about this in a future sense (since i don't have any children of my own) and wonder wht is the best way to discipline. My own parents made me deathly afraid of them without too much physical abuse. The very few times they resorted to physical punishment, it was fairly bad (but you could count it on one hand). they are hardcore practicers of what's called time out. Time out seems to work in some families (like ours) ...but in others it doesn't. perhaps you have to look at it in a situation specific way.
When my bro and sis were babies, mom might swat them when they were into something they shouldn't be (like drawing on the walls with crayons..or lipstick....or going near the stove....or my sis shoving my bro down the stairs ), but it was on the thigh (diapers are great padding), and only once or twice just to make a point.
Belts were never EVER used and i'd advocate against that.

[Dr Strangelove]

My father usually used his belt, and sometimes branches. My mom usually used a paddle or a hair brush. I was so well disciplined that I would reply "Yes Sir!" to my older brothers. I wasn't what you would call a spontaneous child. I had a great deal of trouble relating to other children because I was constantly fearful of punishment when doing anything not specifically given prior approval by my parents.

I suppose there really is such a beast as too much of a good thing.

[loinburger]

I didn't expect such a sharp increase in the number of childless people who disapprove of spanking over those who have children... I suppose I just thought that people would have more tact than to assume that they knew more about parenting than actual parents.

I don't have kids (I hope ), but completely approve of a moderate degree of physical discipline. I was incredibly stubborn as a child, and would probably have been completely uncontrollable if I hadn't been spanked from time to time. Logic and reasoning just doesn't work with some kids like me; I'd be stubborn for the sake of being stubborn.

My parents used "time out" on me also (they called it "standing in the corner"), but it just didn't work on me. One time I hit my older brother, and was made to stand in the corner until I told him that I was sorry. I stood in the corner for a full seven hours, and then I only apologized because my dad was coming home and I didn't want him to spank me. (Bear in mind that my mom administered spankings too, but I was always more scared of my dad's spankings for some reason).

[Alexander's Horse]

My grand father was an alcoholic so he'd beat the sh*it out of my dad and the others just because he was having a bad day.

On my mother's side her father was a saint and never hit the children. But my grandmother on that side would go after them with a switch from a cherry tree (ouch). That would be child abuse today.

In my family, mum did most of the discipline, including smacking us - but we thought it was fun to drive her to the point of tears at dinner time so that was okay. My father hit us very little but if he did go off he'd nearly kill you. I was smart enough not to provoke him that much but my other brothers were dumb defiant bastards at times.

In our house, I do most of the day to day discipline but, like me, its Mrs Horse they really fear

[RUFFHAUS 8]

How is it that there's no option about spanking your girlfriend/having her spank you?

[SlowwHand]

I thumped my daughter. That was usually enough.

[RUFFHAUS 8]

A quick swat on the ass is a good deterrent to misbehavior. Worked for me as a kid. Works for me as a parent. It's not a cure all for bad behavior of course, but what is?

Love your kids enough to spank them.

[Sarxis]

I use thumbscrews.

Quiets those kids down everytime.

[- Groucho -]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
In my family, mum did most of the discipline, including smacking us - but we thought it was fun to drive her to the point of tears at dinner time so that was okay. My father hit us very little but if he did go off he'd nearly kill you. I was smart enough not to provoke him that much but my other brothers were dumb defiant bastards at times.

Sounds like a pretty compelling argument that spanking is completely ineffective.

IMHO - spanking is done by parents who are too lazy/frustrated/tired/unimaginative/whatever to think of a way of disciplining their child without resorting to hitting them. Go ahead and hit your kids, Horse. Just don't be too surprised when they take your little power play lessons to heart and grow up to be kids who think its fun to drive their mother to the edge of tears.

[Provost Harrison]

Spanking doesn't work or none of those half-cocked measures. I find the rack or the iron maiden a good deterrent to those tantrums and misbehaviour

[connorkimbro]

I was, not to a great extent, but somewhat, physically abused by my father as a child. I also witnessed my younger brother and mother being physically abused. Again, not to some extreme extent, not as badly as many others had/have it, but it was there.

That being said, I support a MODERATE amount of physical punishment with the following stipulations

1. One thing that changes physical punishment into abuse is anger. Therefore never EVER EVER hit your kids when you are angry at them. Take 10 minutes, take a few hours, take however long you need to cool off before spanking.

2. Explain to them the reason why you are spanking them. Even to small children. They need to connect the punishment with the action. The need to understand that the ONLY reason they're being punished is because they did a particular thing wrong.

*exceptions to rule 1 and 2. if you see your kid about to do something that will injure/maim/kill themselves or someone else, then a quick smack is OF COURSE entirely appropriate, along with an IMMEDIATE explanition of why. This should be done in a LOVING/CONCERNED manner, NOT an angry one.

3. If you punish when your kid does wrong, reward when he/she does right. Or just randomly, not necessarily for any specific thing. Just to let them know that you approve of THEM as a person, and that you love them.

4. In case you were just skimming, and not reading, I'll say it again. LET THEM KNOW THAT YOU LOVE THEM. And do just say it. Do it.

5. When kids are young, THEY are the center of their own universe. To them, their needs are most important. They might want to do something. If you make the desire NOT to be spanked greater than the desire to misbehave, then that discourages misbehavior. If you don't then, like someone else pointed out, they'll know that they can get away with it. A child that young isn't going to be able to comprehend any abstract sense of morals, or reasons WHY certain things shouldn't be done. What is it to them? THEY are the most important person in their universe, after all. Mommy, Daddy, Brother, Sister, Friend. . . all of THOSE things exist FOR that child, in that child's mind.

thus. . .
6. Once a child is out of that psychology, and able to consider others as equal to himself, and are able to reason things out which are right and wrong, THEN I personally advocate switching to alternate forms of punishment. Continuing spanking at that age discourages growth, as it is merely a continuance of being treated like a child. If, however, you instead utilize the "time out" rules or "being ground" along with reasons why you're punishing them AND reasons why what they did is wrong, that encourages and promotes growth. It gets them to rationally understand, and enables them to start thinking about whats right and wrong. IF YOU CONTINUE physical punishment past this point, they will only get more and more clever at evading being caught. If you explain why things are wrong, then they'll hopefully start to make correct decisions on their own.


I'm not a parent yet, but I personally think that this is pretty damn good parental philosophy, and it's the one i'll approach parenting with.