Slavery

[Grrr]

I was wondering, if CTP style slavery would appear in Civ III. I think this is a good idea, especially if more Civs are playing in one game.
Does anyone agree that Slavery should be introduced.

PS: This is one of the three things I like about CTP

yes, i think slavery should be part of the game, but not like in CtP where your slave hunter can run to the core of another civ and "catch" slaves. i think after a victorious battle you should receive a certain amount of "instant" production points by slave work. after conquering a city you should be allowed to enslave the inhabitants and transfer them to your own city.

slaves were so important in history, we can't ignore them.
i'll think a bit on that topic and then post something more useful...

[Diablo, Bro. of Mephisto]

I havent played CTP yet, but I like werns idea, of when you capture a city, you should be able to enslave the people.

Also, to add to slavery, When you battle some other army, (this is of course if they add an option to retreat in civ3) if they retreat, you have a 10-20% chance of capturing the retreating army, and take them as prisoners of war. Maybe prisoners of war could be used as ransom, especially if you are in need of money. You could set the ransom amount, depending on how large the army, and how good there troops were. If there was a 'leader' unit in the army you captured, the ransom would naturally be much higher.

[Grrr]

quote: Originally posted by Rollo Tomasi on 12-16-2000 12:53 PM Never realy did care for slavery; I don't think I ever used it. What are the other two things you liked about CTP?

Cargo Pods
Sea/Space Cities

[QW1020]

quote: Originally posted by wernazuma on 12-16-2000 04:11 PM yes, i think slavery should be part of the game, but not like in CtP where your slave hunter can run to the core of another civ and "catch" slaves. i think after a victorious battle you should receive a certain amount of "instant" production points by slave work. after conquering a city you should be allowed to enslave the inhabitants and transfer them to your own city. slaves were so important in history, we can't ignore them. i'll think a bit on that topic and then post something more useful...

I agree

[Rollo Tomasi]

Never realy did care for slavery; I don't think I ever used it.

What are the other two things you liked about CTP?

[Deity Dude]

Definitely need slavery. It should expire when certain techs are discovered. It could also even be a commodity that is part of trade. Slavery and its nearly universal abolishment have been critical historical developments.

[Diablo, Bro. of Mephisto]

I disagree that slavery should be wiped out once a certain tech comes along, just look at the Nazi work Camps during world war 2. the workers were not workers, they were slaves.

[Deity Dude]

Obviously the Nazi's never discovered the tech. I was thinking of a tech like the one off of Ribannah's tree - I think it was Humanitarianism - which I think it is safe to say that neither Hitler nor Stalin got but subsequent German and Russian leaders did.

[Grumbold]

It is a sad fact of life that slavery (in its broad sense) is still a fact of life in many nations around the world today. The idea that discovering an advance suddenly results in worldwide freedom is farcical. Slavery needs to be something that ceases to be advantageous with more enlightened government. If the Diplomatic model allows for trade embargoes and diplomatic pressure to be put on nations with poor civil rights records, even better.

[Pangaea]

I think it should be harder to become slaves the more advanced you are....

like if some guy goes to New York and tries to capture slaves to go to Poland or somewhere, they're gonna have a hell of a time doing that

I found in CTP that slaves just dis-balanced my cities... sure it worked for a while, but then when you become to dependant on slaves, and then slavery is abolished, your cities go wild

Like ancient Rome/Sparta, they were very slave dependant, and if they rebel, your screwed..

also, they should have a "treat slaves" bar, that treats them better (maybe pays them, gives them more rations) and it keeps your slaves happy.... and if you oppress them, they revolt, like Spartacus

[Grrr]

I disagree, slavery should only be available under certain governments, eg: totalitarianism,tyranny. and not in others, eg Democracy

quote: Originally posted by Deity Dude on 12-18-2000 01:49 PM Definitely need slavery. It should expire when certain techs are discovered. It could also even be a commodity that is part of trade. Slavery and its nearly universal abolishment have been critical historical developments.

quote: Originally posted by Grrr on 12-20-2000 04:59 PM I disagree, slavery should only be available under certain governments, eg: totalitarianism,tyranny. and not in others, eg Democracy

well, there has been slaver in the us, or not...

[Diablo, Bro. of Mephisto]

I agree that slavery should become very diffecult, and only under certain governments in the later years of the game. and you could use slaves in your occupied cities, when you capture them, but it would be a major break down in your reputation.

[Deity Dude]

Slavery is not government based, as wernazuma points out, democracies and republics have had legal slavery throughout history. Thats why I suggested a cultural/social advance such as humanitarianism to end slavery. Remeber, in a democracy if 51% of the people vote for slavery you have slavery. That's why I envision the discovery of a tech abolishing slavery on a civ by civ basis. As far as my comment about the nearly universal abolishment of slavery, I meant state sanctioned slavery. Obviously there are criminal acts taking place across the world but that would fall under corruption. And I would submit that if there still is state sanctioned slavery, that state is not very humanitarian.

[Grumbold]

Under a democratic government I would certainly expect to see the pop integrate faster and be a source of unhappiness until integrated. Pretending that slavery never has and never will exist in a democratic state though is just perpetuating a myth. The UK has a small but very real element of economic slaves working in the large cities. Illegal immigrants are smuggled into the country and forced to work in appalling conditions for virtually no money under threat of exposure to the authorities and deportation. Its not legal and it is not a significant percentage of the population but it does continue even in the new millennium.

[Vrank Prins]

quote: Originally posted by Deity Dude on 12-19-2000 06:16 PM Obviously the Nazi's never discovered the tech. I was thinking of a tech like the one off of Ribannah's tree - I think it was Humanitarianism - which I think it is safe to say that neither Hitler nor Stalin got but subsequent German and Russian leaders did.

In Rib's techtree there is Human Rights and we've also discussed the possibility of putting in Humanism. Human Rights should lead to the abolotion of slavery.

I think slavery should be definitely in the game. It has been a historical fact. The CTP concept of a slaver is not very realistic.

I always use history as my inspiration to come up with ideas for the game, so here are first a few historical facts.

Slavery has got to do with two things: war and social status.

The 17th/18th century slavetrade was based on tribalwars in Africa. Sometimes these wars were just began by tribes or tribal kingdoms to "gain the economical benefits" of the slavetrade, ethics was really the last thing which was involved here.

The position and social status of serves in a feudal society was almost slavelike. In western-europe things
Citizens, that is people living in a city were "free" according to feudal standards. People could loose (bits of) their status of free people when they were in debt and just couldn't pay or had gravely misbehaved themselves.
The progress in agricultural methods gave servs the possibility of a more or less independ live from their lord.
Up to medieval times it was quite common to enslave those who were beaten in battle. In earlier times (as did the romans sometimes) it was also common to just kill most of the fighting men and enslave the rest and all the women and children.


There are lots af possibilities to introduce the concept of slavery into the game.

The easiest one is just to give the possibility to capture instead of just killing off, like we do now in the game, your opponents in battle and enslave them. (In COLONIZATION you catch either a criminal, or an indentured servant, or a free citizen/tradesman).

When you conquer a city it should also be possible to put the whole population in slaveunits on "transport". But that's a bit trickier, because it brings in the element of social status in the game (maybe someone has already made a realistic introducable model for that), somewhere in your cityscreen it must show that there are free citizens and slaves. And what and how will happen things happen to them when time moves on ??

Enslaving people should become increasingly different with the progression of "civilization" and it's habits in the game. If you f.i. have install a democratic government it should be impossible etc.

I would love it. It might give you, and this may sound as an un-ethical remark, free units. In COLONIZATION I always keep the war going with weak opponents just to do that. In the end it's all about our score, isn't it.

[Grumbold]

If Civ3 had that concept of population status then it is an excellent way of treating slaves. They produce very little but can very slowly be reformed into useful/indoctrinated members of society. I think we need to stop pretending that slavery all disappeared at the end of the ACW too. We know from Colonisation that a criminal pop member is going to add more problems than it is worth until it reforms. That will be incentive enough to keep slavery in proportion in Civ3. A city revolt due to unhappiness that randomly demotes a pop point to criminal status is more sensible than one that brings down the entire government, too.

[Didymus]

My $0.02 ...

I am sympathetic to the idea that government type should have the greatest effect on slavery tolerance, rather than any specific advance. OTOH, I can see that it might not be so simple. So I have a few suggestions:

At some point, each civ can decide to abolish slavery within its borders. This will no doubt affect diplomatic relations with other civs, and will require a specific advance. (Steam engine? To replace human labor with mechanical. I know this might sound odd, but slavery is an ECONOMIC system.) Once this is done, it is permanent. Certain forms of goverment might become impossible afterward. But then, this will not matter, since anyone with, .e.g., Communism, isn't likely to choose Tyranny.

While it is *possible* to have slaves under an advanced government, it is dangerous, because the cities owning slaves have an increased chance to revolt, regardless of military presence in that city. The revolt might be led either by the slaves or by the owners (who fear for their power), and this revolt will have a chance of pulling nearby cities into revolt as well.

Another possibility is, it might make the central government unstable. E.g., due to the conflict between abolitionist and slave owners, a chance exists of a scandal breaking out that throws the civ into anarchy. Or perhaps the existance of slaves under democracy could cause unhappiness in all cities.

The above conflict(s) might be ameliorated by building an improvement which speeds the integration of slaves into society. E.g., a Homestead Authority might give a 10% chance per turn of one slave becoming a citizen. After all slaves are converted, it might eliminate one drone. Er, unhappy citizen. The problem with this last idea is that in RL, the lands provided for people seeking to start over with '40 acres and a mule' were frequently in new territories. But modeling immigration in a Civ game would be a major task.

[This message has been edited by Didymus (edited December 21, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Didymus (edited December 21, 2000).]

[hHydro]

If they consider using a social engineering system similar to SMAC, tolerance to slavery could be a value like 'Planet' rating was in SMAC. As you choose Society types or governments like Democracy or Humanitarianism, you receive -1 Slave, +1 Econ, etc.

That way one tech doesn't abolish slavery altogether - it takes several factors. Also, it allows for the reintroduction of slavery if a civ 'backslides' into fascism or other government type (Perfect parallel to Nazi germany.)

Course.. that's only if they're using something like the SE table..
[This message has been edited by hHydro (edited December 21, 2000).]

[Deity Dude]

Didymus is partially right - "slavery is an economic system." It is true that certain advances did "obsolete" slavery in certain areas. But it is more than that because free labor can always be exploited no matter how technologically advanced a society gets. The Russians, for example, under Stalin were reasonably industrially advanced when they built the Trans-Siberian Railroad, after all they had nuclear weapons at the time, but still used slave labor because the leaders didn't value life. It certainly becomes easier to abolish slavery if you have a cheap substitute (steam engine, industrialization, agricultural revolution) but it also takes a social change that values human life for its own sake (humanitarianisn). So maybe the answer, like so many things on the tech tree, is it takes multiple prerequisites -economic and social- to abolish slavery. Another important issue, which I mentioned in passing in my earlier post, is not only the utilization of slave labor but commercial element of the slave trade. Slavery should also be treated as a commodity in the supply and demand screen. One final point, a little off the subject and don't kill me if its already been discussed, is the concept of a civ neither supplying or demanding goods but simply trading in them for profit. Slavery would be one example.

[Grumbold]

If they used something similar to the SMAC SE table then I would hope slavery/human rights would be a category that was influenced.

i want to give some random facts on slavery to liven up the discussion on this topic. they are neither complete nor do i follow a special purpose by writing them down. it shall be merely an input for further discussion.


there are estimates that during the roman empire one of every eight persons was a slave! christianity, although having somewhere the idea that all men are equal, never complained about slavery itself, only about the treatment.
in ancient mesoamerica killing slaves was considered a murder, just like any killing.
this shows that there can be even slavery when you acknowledge the "humanness" of slaves.

in history we have several accounts of "slave governments". the most famous were the mamluks in egypt. but even in the roman empire high positions were mostly achieved by liberti (freedmen) or slaves. in most societies there had been a high demand for "specialist slaves", as we can see from the professions many slaves held in greek and roman times. they were not just used for agriculture or public works(although this surely was always an important factor)so slaves were even an influential political and/or intellectual (civilizing) factor in many societies

slave trade in the 17th and 18th century had very deep demographic impacts on three regions: america (where most male slaves had to go), arabic nations (where most female slaves were sold) and sub-sahara africa (where the slaves came from).
reading roman sources we also can see massive demographic shifts due to slavery. after the bellum iudaicum and later the bar-kochba uprising, several hundredthousands of jews were deported and similar things happened all the time (and just think of the "babylonian imprisonment" of the jews).
slaves were for a very long time just a "trade good" like anything else and it changed the demographic situations of vast landscapes.

[lord of the mark]

slavery and govt type

slavery is certainly compatible with Republic, but not Demo.

France abolished slavery when became demo after the revolution, restored it under napoleon, abolished again in 1848 when made another try at demo with universal (well er male only) suffrage.

UK abolished in 1832, 2 years after widening suffrage.

US goes from republic to demo in Age of Jackson, the 1830's. Slavery survived another 20 years, but it was a period of almost continous struggle over slavery, especially after 1847 (the Mexican war). Interestingly many of the radical Jacksonian democrats went on to become free soilers (see Schlesinger, Age of Jackson)
While recognizing democracy in the ante bellum South and wartime Confederacy, ultimately slavery was incompatible with democratic ideology.

Industrialization should lead to automatic abolition of slavery in those states that get industrialization, even if they are still republics or monarchies. Pre-industrial states may keep slavery, but at severe costs in economic output and reputation. This shoiuld handle survival of slavery in places like Sudan, while acknowleding its virtual disappearance.

Fascist and Communist states should be able to restore slavery, but it should not be automatic, and should accompany economic/happiness/reputation penalties - thus recognizing Nazi and stalinist slavery, while recognizing that say fascist Italy and Khruschev USSR were different.

All of this sounds way too complex to implement, but if you want historical accuracy, there it is.

[Nikolai]

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark on 12-22-2000 01:10 PM slavery is certainly compatible with Republic, but not Demo.

I totally disagree! The first democracy in the world, Athen in Greece in the ancient times, HAD slaves!

Actually, people's thoughts about slavery don't relate to governments or techs, but NORMS! We have different types of norms, like how to act when we eat, or how to handle humans, that is what we are talking about here.

However, norms are difficult to implement in the game, so I think we will have to use something else.

Well,well; merry christmas everybody!!

[Grumbold]

I have to disagree with LotM. As Nikolai points out, a system of slavery (be it physical or economic) has existed side by side with otherwise tolerant regimes. Valuing every human life is (in general) a pretty modern concept and has come with growing national wealth. If a lot of techs offer the choice of positive economic growth with more enlightened humanitarian treatment of people then who cares what the government type is called. Eventually it is in everyone's interest to reduce repression.

[Deity Dude]

Nikolai - don't techs sometimes represent a change in norms or values. I think we're saying the same thing sort of - I look at a tech which abolishes or allows for the abolishment of slavery (i.e. humanitarianism or some other name that is appropriate) as a change in norms. Discussions about the slave class in ancient times is intersting and should be considered.

[Rollo Tomasi]

The slave trade, though definitely abhorrent, was a major part of the triangular trade system from Europe to Africa to America. There should be an option to sell your slaves to other civs. A small civ could make a lot of money attacking their neighbors and selling them. As countries abolish slavery, the trade eventually dies out and a new source of income would have to be found.

yeah, why not introduce slaves as valuable trade good. by that you can either convert citizens of conquered cities (and maybe with a certain chance soldiers after won combats) to either production or send them per caravan anywhere.

[Nikolai]

quote: Originally posted by Deity Dude on 12-22-2000 05:18 PM Nikolai - don't techs sometimes represent a change in norms or values. I think we're saying the same thing sort of - I look at a tech which abolishes or allows for the abolishment of slavery (i.e. humanitarianism or some other name that is appropriate) as a change in norms. Discussions about the slave class in ancient times is intersting and should be considered.

In real life, it's much more complicated than just techs, but Civ isn't real life, is it? Exactly how slavery should be implemented is, as I said, difficult to say, but maybe we, if we say techs are used to this, could get a new choice in SE (or what system we will get); slavery on/off.

Maybe you should get some information on what your people mean, and if they mean something else than what suits YOU, you could have a attitude campaign to change peoples mind?

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