Cradle 1.3

[Agusta]

Originally posted by hexagonian
Have you played civ3 and how does Cradle measure up???

I played the original civ from back in the floppy days when you could type 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0 to uncover the whole world. Almost caused a divorce with my first wife so I quit playing for a few years. Came across it by mistake a while back and wondered if they made any new ones. Stopped at best buy and found CTPII. I saw a commercial for Civ 3 on TV and decide to do some checking online to see if it would be worth the $50 + big ones. I forget how I found this site but was very glad I did. Based on the reviews I have seen and what they want for 3, I will pass and stick with what you guys have going here.

Originally posted by hexagonian
Glad to hear that we here in the Mod community can bring back those marathon sessions.

ME TOO !!!!

[stankarp]

quote:

Originally posted by stankarp
Leonidas,

Rule No 1- Never trust the AI

Rule no 2- refer to rule no 1




stankarp: Wise words to live by ;

Told you. In a marathon game, gigantic map, 15 civs, fighting with the Japanese and the Celts, being very, very carefull not to start a war with anyone else.

The native Americans built a city in a swamp in the middle of the Japanese empire. The keep sending units back and forward to it, every now and then, blocking a vital road for me in my war with the Japs. I put several 2-3 unit stacks along the road to keep it open for my troops. Its in my territory yet the NA just turned around and attacked and wiped out 2 units sitting on the road. Now I have another war I dont need at the moment.

The Egyptians, Harrappans, Han, and others have just declared war out of the blue by attacking units several times. I noticed that they are far more likely to do it if you sit next to them so now I try to keep 1 square away from them if possible. I have an egyptian city that revolted and went barb and I captured it and the egyptians keep marching 3-4 stacks(with 6-12 units) around it I ask them to withdraw and they refuse. I have built a wall, ballista towers and now working on a castle just in case.

[J Bytheway]

Thanks a bunch for this - I just started my first Cradle game which is also my first CTP2 game that's lasted past turn 20 and it kept me up till 5:30am. I still really hate the interface (it's too bulky for 800x600 resolution) but this makes up the difference.

I am getting strange messages whenever there's an earthquake like "There was an earthquake at x= y=, the nearest city is ..." - presumably these are just debugging messages but you can't remove them by right-clicking, which is annoying.

[Immortal Wombat]

John, I posted an update with that fixed somewhere, I'll try and locate it for you. Or else you can search in CRA_Disasters.slc for the message line and comment it out.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by J Bytheway
Thanks a bunch for this - I just started my first Cradle game which is also my first CTP2 game that's lasted past turn 20 and it kept me up till 5:30am. I still really hate the interface (it's too bulky for 800x600 resolution) but this makes up the difference.

Great to see you here, John
The interface already looks much better on 1024x768, but either way, it's just a matter of getting used to. It even has some advantages over CtP1's interface, especially when it comes to managing large empires (but I agree that overall CtP1's interface is still better).

[J Bytheway]

Did you mean for there to be such an enourmously long time between Caliphate and any later government, because it seems to be that way. I'm now (in Caliphate) on -7 empire size unhappiness and I'm still trying to conquer cities. I just don't have the heart to disband any of them. And I'm only playing on a regular map - it must be nightmarish on larger ones...

But then, I suppose that's the whole point, right?

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by J Bytheway
Did you mean for there to be such an enourmously long time between Caliphate and any later government, because it seems to be that way. I'm now (in Caliphate) on -7 empire size unhappiness and I'm still trying to conquer cities. I just don't have the heart to disband any of them. And I'm only playing on a regular map - it must be nightmarish on larger ones...

But then, I suppose that's the whole point, right?

For bigger maps I recommand the huge map version of Cradle, there is the city limit higher and you can have more cities.

-Martin

[Spanscape]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
spanscape, have you write-protected userprofile.txt?

Just did that... what else is this supposed to accomplish besides locking NumPlayers and MaxPlayers so the game doesn't muck with them?

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by Spanscape
Just did that... what else is this supposed to accomplish besides locking NumPlayers and MaxPlayers so the game doesn't muck with them?

Only that if it was on, I'd advise turning it off, so that the number of players can change...

[Hermann the Lombard]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat

Only that if it was on, I'd advise turning it off, so that the number of players can change...

Umm...makes sense, but I thought the advice was to write-protect userprofile after setting debugslic to "no."

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by J Bytheway
Did you mean for there to be such an enourmously long time between Caliphate and any later government, because it seems to be that way. I'm now (in Caliphate) on -7 empire size unhappiness and I'm still trying to conquer cities. I just don't have the heart to disband any of them. And I'm only playing on a regular map - it must be nightmarish on larger ones...

On the Ultra-Gigantic game setting, the caps are higher

Part of the problem is that from a historical standpoint, the three Medieval governments (Theocracy, Monarchy, Caliphate) did come in quick succession, and also they all occured rather early in the Medieval age - I would have liked to have a little more spacing from one government to another, but I couldn't figure out how to tie it into the tech tree. So there is a gap from the Medieval governments to the next level government (Democracy).

The problem that you are running into is tied into the max city cap, which stands at
Theocracy - 30
Monarchy - 35
Caliphate - 40

Democracy will get you to 50 - however you will lose the (+1) martial law effect and it should be a little harder to maintain a low war discontent. Still, your best bet is to make a beeline to Democracy, as it is in all forms, a superior government to the ealier ones.

There are two camps on the whole city cap issue - those who want high caps to allow for aggressive warmongering and those who prefer the caps to put a constraint on it. I tend to prefer the latter, as it forces a player to more carefully plan out any expansionist policy - either peacefully or through war. (But that is a preference issue)

All of the TBS games do suffer from what is called the 'bigger is better' syndrome too - where the bigger civ is usually the one who has the most muscle, so a cap is used as a means to slow this down.

Both CTP2 and civ3 have these caps in place - Where I think CTP2 does a better job is that as you progress to later governments, the cap is/can be increased. It is my understanding that in civ3, the same cap is set up for all the governments, and there is little alternative once you reach the breaking point and you end up with a bunch of cities that are rife with corruption. Then your only recouse is to raze those cities (and coupled with the high chance for captured cities to flip back, this makes conquest especially hard and frustrating).

At least in CTP2, you can wait until the next government level.

In setting up this mod, one thing that has been hard to do is to take into account all the various types of playing styles that are out there. At the same time, CTP2 is easily modifiable, so if you are a player who wants a little more leeway in the government caps, you can go into the (CRA_)govern.txt files and raise the caps.

Originally posted by J Bytheway
But then, I suppose that's the whole point, right?

Yes...

[J Bytheway]

Wow! Thanks for the long reply. I agree with all your points - it's not the caps in and of themselves I was worried about but the tech tree timing of the govts (the long gap before Democracy) - I'm used to playing CTP (1) on the edge, getting up to about -4 or -5 empire size discontent, and then getting the next govt just as everything starts to fall apart, but here I suddenly discovered I was vastly overstretched and still miles from Democracy.

I'm not complaining - in fact, the more I think about it, the more I like it this way. I'll just have to adjust my tactics a little and keep an eye on my city count.

In the mean time I'll have to make do with a copius supply of happiness improvements to distract my people, and I'll just have to stop that war against the greeks.

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard
Umm...makes sense, but I thought the advice was to write-protect userprofile after setting debugslic to "no."

DebugSlic shouldn't be affected, it'll stay Off. What changes during the game is the number of players. Changes you can make before the game are the map settings. If you set write-protect, they'll be the same every time you load the New Game screen.

[Spanscape]

At any rate, I'm debugging Cradle and Medieval II in this other thread based on some ideas from Locutus:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=44416

It's isolated to the CRAG_script.slc and MM2_script.slc files at this point. When I conquer another civ multiplayer, with either of these scripts, I get a crash to desktop. Working on isolating it further...

[Leonidas]

Two Points:

1) Plagues: I have been hit by two plagues that each have hit 90% of my cities. I think this may be too much. Each plague has eliminated 4-5 pop points from my cities. The next Civ above me now has cities that are twice the size of mine (and it doesn't even have terrain improvements) LOL

In Cradle, the AI has many advantages, so I'm wondering if the use of plagues to cripple the player is really needed IMHO.

I think the "Plague Event" either should be toned down to maybe strike a couple of cities, or be eliminated altogether.


2) When a city finishes building everything, it has nothing more to build except military units.

I'm just wondering if something like "Production" or "Capitalization" could be provided to allow the city to generate more gold when there is nothing left to build.

Great Mod so far. Best thing is - it is only getting better. . .

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by Leonidas
1) Plagues: I have been hit by two plagues that each have hit 90% of my cities. I think this may be too much. Each plague has eliminated 4-5 pop points from my cities. The next Civ above me now has cities that are twice the size of mine (and it doesn't even have terrain improvements) LOL

In Cradle, the AI has many advantages, so I'm wondering if the use of plagues to cripple the player is really needed IMHO.

I think the "Plague Event" either should be toned down to maybe strike a couple of cities, or be eliminated altogether.

Ok, in the attached version of the file, there is a base 40% chance of the plague hitting each city, on building an apothecary, it reduces to 20%, a physician reduces it to 10% and then a drug store and hosital reduce it to 5% and 1% respectively.

[Immortal Wombat]

This version is the same as above, but it affects the AI too, to reduce their advantage.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Leonidas
In Cradle, the AI has many advantages, so I'm wondering if the use of plagues to cripple the player is really needed IMHO.

I think the "Plague Event" either should be toned down to maybe strike a couple of cities, or be eliminated altogether.

Here's an easy way to fix this. The Disaster code had been modified from a 1/3 to 1/5 effect and to drop it even further look for the following lines of copy withi the Plague/Epidemic trigger

city[0] = PlaguedCity;
int_t tmpDead;
tmpDead = city[0].population/5;
int_t j;
for(j = 0; j < tmpDead; j = j + 1){
Event:KillPop(PlaguedCity);

Chage the line
tmpDead = city[0].population/5;

to
tmpDead = city[0].population/10;

...the higher the number, the less the effect.

The code can be completely disabled by going into the various (CRA_)script.slc files and looking for the line of text

#include "CRA_disasters.slc"

Either remove that line, or change it to

// #include "CRA_disasters.slc"

Originally posted by Leonidas
2) When a city finishes building everything, it has nothing more to build except military units.

I'm just wondering if something like "Production" or "Capitalization" could be provided to allow the city to generate more gold when there is nothing left to build.

Where are you in the game when this is occuring?

Go into CRA_Advances.txt - you will see the following entries...

ADVANCE_GLOBAL_ECONOMICS {
Prerequisites ADVANCE_CORPORATE_REPUBLIC
Prerequisites ADVANCE_JET_PROPULSION
Cost 58650
Icon ICON_ADVANCE_GLOBAL_ECONOMICS
Branch 0
Age AGE_SIX
Capitalization

and

ADVANCE_MASS_PRODUCTION {
Prerequisites ADVANCE_EXPLOSIVES
Prerequisites ADVANCE_INTERNAL_COMBUSTION
Cost 60730
Icon ICON_ADVANCE_MASS_PRODUCTION
Branch 0
Age AGE_SIX
PollutionSizeModifier 0.5
PollutionProductionModifier 0.5
Infrastructure
TriggerFeat FEAT_ADVANCE_MASS_PRODUCTION


Remove the Capitalization and Infrastructure flags from those entries and move them to different advances.

Perhaps Capitalization to Banking
and Infrastructure to Tribunal Empire.

[J Bytheway]

Originally posted by hexagonian
Here's an easy way to fix this. The Disaster code had been modified from a 1/3 to 1/5 effect and to drop it even further look for the following lines of copy withi the Plague/Epidemic trigger

Could you make the plague severity dependant upon difficulty level? Or possibly barbarian level? Or give the player a choice of natural disaster severity level at the beginning of the game?

[Spanscape]

Actually, aside from all my MP crashing problems, I've found the plague effect to be potentially pretty useful.

However, my suggestion would be to eliminate the randomness from its occurence, and give it a fixed interval at which it will occur. In one of my games, I just by chance was hit by a plague like every 10 turns (as well as a few earthquakes) and it had a devastating effect.

What might be interesting is to do this:

Whenever I build one of the 'plague defending improvements', it gives me N turns of immunity:

Apothecary: 30 turns
Physician: 50 turns
Drug Store: 60 turns
Hospital: 80 turns

After the immunity wears off (or was never available), start the random % of occurence at 0% and increase it by X% per turn until it happens. Then reset the % chance. X is dependent per city on the improvements...

No city improvements: 8
Apothecary: 6
Physician: 4
Drug Store: 2
Hospital: 1

This way, after a plague hits, you're immediately incented to build one of these improvements and get it finished up. Also, everyone with the same infrastructure will have less deviation in the occurence of the plagues.

[Immortal Wombat]

I'll look into it for ya.

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
This version is the same as above, but it affects the AI too, to reduce their advantage.

Thanks for the file

[Leonidas]

hexagonian: I had two cities that had run out of things to build about 1550 AD. All other cities were building stuff.

A few items came available a hundred years later, and now, about 1700 AD, those two cities only have a couple of improvements two build. . .

[hexagonian]

I will most likely be off-line for the following week (Friday PM, March 22 through Sunday, March 31 - I will be on vacation with the family, doing repair work around the house and some other things that will be taking up my time) so if there are any problems/issues with 'Cradle' as it stands now, I will not be able to respond as efficiently as normal.

Still, there are many players here onsite who can help out, so continue posting.

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by J Bytheway
Or give the player a choice of natural disaster severity level at the beginning of the game?

Done.
Three settings. One 7/8 the chance of last time, on at the normal level, and one 1/5 more likely, for hardcore players

[Kull]

I've been out of pocket for a few months, but it's great to see all the improvements and continued enthusiasm for Cradle. Here's what I'd like to add:

List all the Wonders that need movies, and I'll see about creating/modding them into existence.

[Locutus]

Wow, it would be great if you could do that, Kull I hope Dave can give you a list before he goes on vacation. If not, and you're good with static graphics as well, you may want to have a look at this thread, an artist is urgently needed there as well (both Cradle and other mods could profit from that).

[Kull]

Here's a first cut at one for "The HangingGardens" (pretty sure that's not part of the CTP package). It's kinda rough, but gives you an idea of what's possible.

http://cullivan.com/civ/ctp2/Movie.ZIP (Case Sensitive!)

I tested it out by replacing the opening avi file in the MedMod (ctp2_data/default/videos/med2intro.avi) and it ran fine. My assumption is that if it works there, it'll work fine as a wonder movie. Working on the "Mausoleum" right now.

For what it's worth, if anybody out there has any "Ancient-era" games with good avi's, they may be candidates for wonder movies. There are some cool ones from the original "Age of Empires". I tested those in the same way, and they worked with no modification whatsoever.

Ancient era music in wav format would also be helpful.

NOTE: The file is 2.9MB so those who only want to look at the video should choose one of the following Streaming Options:

DSL: http://civ.cullivan.com/ctp2/HG-2a_DSL.ram (Good Quality)
56K: http://civ.cullivan.com/ctp2/HG-2a_56K.ram (Kinda muddy, but optimized for dial-up)

[Dale]

Kull:

Excellent work mate! Any hope I could suck you into making a few modern age wonders for me? It's for my World At War MOD.

- Cure for Syphilis (drugs)
- Model T Ford (assembly lines)
- Social Tolerance (understanding of eugenics)
- National Surveylance (radar stations)
- Supercomputer (transistors and ENIAC)
- Manhatten Project (nukes)

[Hermann the Lombard]

Originally posted by Kull
Here's a first cut at one for "The HangingGardens" (pretty sure that's not part of the CTP package).

Isn't there an HG video already (at least in Cradle?) I'll check yours out in any event.