Let's end this one and for all ! The Last ME Thread. Permanent solutions only please!

[Az]

Hello.

As many others , I am sure you're all tired from the Middle East threads . They are annoying , boring , and people seem to repeat their arguements over and over. One of the most annoying things about the ME threads , is of course a sheer lack of real solution propositions.

Yes , of course , some times arrives the ' but if Israel/Palestinians would want to end the violence they would yada yada yada' , but that's not a solution, right?

People sometimes get exited over this thread . This is O.K. , of course , but things can get real nasty, and personal attacks occur in almost every thread.

Also , many hundreds of hours were spent in a futile way that not only has no chance of changing things ( of course I don't kid myself about that ! ) but also leads to more debates . Nothing is achieved . Nothing.

So there's the plan. You post a comprehensive plan to end the conflict.

No 'World Peace'. No mass murder. Everything else is allowed.
If a plan is confronted by one of the posters , a poster that defends the plan can require an alternate plan. He can but he's not obligated to do so.

So let's give a try shall we ?

[Eli]

But I want mass murder.



(for those of you that cant understand that it's a joke, it's a joke)

[Bereta_Eder]

I'm certaintly no expert on the issue (let me stress that - I am no expert on the issue) but what I would propose would be:

You stop immideatly all retaliatory attacks (a woman and 2 children weere killed today - yes I know the circumstances this is not a condamnation it's a statement)

Even if they attack you, you do nothing but you beef up all systems meant to limit the danger of terrorist attacks WITHOUT SENDING THE TANKS AND THE F16 OUT. In short without killing anybody.

You sit on the negotiation table under the supervision of the UN, the US and the EU. The target is to create a Palestinian state.

Once this is agreed you build a large wall. Anyone who violates the rules set out in the agreement gets punitive actions FROM THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY not from you and not from palestine.

You let the wall up for as long as it takes.

[laurentius]

My solution would be a complete equalization of jews and muslims in one Israel & Palestine-state(eg. Bosnia&Herzegovina)

So there would be only one nation, not two. Anyone would be allowed to live and practise ones religion anywhere they wish for. Most of jewish settlements would be torn down. Palestinian refugee camps would be torn down also and real towns would be builded. Jews would apologize palestinian people for their atrocities and vice versa. Small multiethnic villages would be build. Any returning palestinian refugee would be granted to enter the new state. The administration would be completely re-organized, possibly with international help. A truth comission would be established, UN peacekeepers would arrive to disarm Hamas and Hezbollah. How bout this?

[Bereta_Eder]

laurentius (funky name that One of my favorite singers has this name!)

they already said that they don't want that. (one state) I think at least... I'd also prefere it from 2 states, certaintly.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Build a 50 M high and 50 m thick concrete wall with one door that you will be able to close at will.

That's it. No more problems 8'th wonder of the world. And you will get tourists to see it for next 1000 years.

[laurentius]

OT dont take into discussion :

Originally posted by paiktis22
laurentius (funky name that One of my favorite singers has this name!)

they already said that they don't want that. (one state) I think at least... I'd also prefere it from 2 states, certaintly.

Efharisto dude
Lauri->laurentius
My favorite singer is of course Matthias Reim!

[Az]

The State Of Israel:

Borders:
The Borders of 67' execept Jewish parts of Jerusalem, The major settlement area southwest of Jerusalem. The Jerusalem corridor will be wider, and will contain all jewish towns there. A small part of the north of the Jordan Valley.

Nature:
Equality to all civilians.
The State will provide secular education only.
The State will be secular itself. Totally.
Law of Return will continue to exist.

Capital:
I don't care. Jerusalem , or Tel-Aviv.


The Palestinian State:

Borders:

All the west bank that's not the part of Israel+The Former Hashemite Kingdom ( who's population is already mostly non-beduin, and thus "Palestinian") The Gaza Strip.

Nature:
Equality to all civilians.
Secular.
Democratic and pluralistic.

Capital:
East Jerusalem will be trasformed into a new city called 'Al-Kutz'



Settlers :
Everyone that wants to stay in the territories stays, under the condition of dual citizenship.

Refugees :
Either Refugees get compensations ( paid by EU and US , of course ) or they return to the territory of the palestinian state.


Economies:
Separate. We part ways in peace . No Palestinian workers. Indepenance comes at a price. deal with it.

Water:
Desalanization operation in Gaza City ( also paid by the EU . )

[ColdWizard]

Step 1. Relocate all people from the ME to Australia, using anarctica as a holding point until step 2 is complete.
Step 2. Relocate excess of kangaroos from Australia to the ME.
Step 3. Bask in my infinite wisdom

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Take the jewish settlements out of the occupied areas (West Bank, Gaza Strip). Install a government hand-picked by the UN with no PLO representatives. Call it "Palestine". Keep UN forces in place to kick the crap out of anyone causing trouble. Replace Sharon.

It's a long shot, but I can't think of a better way to stop the killings.

[Az]

I don't believe I said it , but we need CyberGnu... ( OMG! What have I done .... ... endless CyberGnu rethoric ensues..)

People get serious!

Paiktis: that's not a permanent solution!

[Eli]

10 years of PLO dictatorship, media incitement, population brainwashing and Israeli pressure on the population brought a generation whose mothers praise their pizzeria-bomber children. A generation when at the age of 5, a child knows that the Jews see themselves as a master race set to take over the world, he knows that the main city street is called after the most "productive" suicide bomber in the last year, in the kindergarden the nanny praises the boy who says he wants to be a suicide bomber and the girl that is called after a female terrorist who killed 2 men walking in the street.
On the TV, after a commercial of hair shampoo you see a state sponsored commercial calling children to go out to the streets and attack the IDF soldiers. Mothers who refuse to send their children get a visit by the local security services. The next commercial blesses those who kill Jews.
All this, in a primitive intolerant society living under very hard conditions caused by the conflict. A society where large parts of the cities are still managed by hamulas(family gangs), where killing members of opposite hamulas as revenge is considered just. A society where people can storm jails and release prisoners.
A society with hundreds of thousands of people live in the slumps of the refugee camps, while the bank accounts of their corrupted leaders hold hundreds of millions of dollars. The same leaders that call their people to go for Jihad, but most of their time is spent abroad.
A society that needs the help of it's archenemy to build a University. A society where the few people who oppose the ways of the goverment find themselves thrown on the street with broken bones.
A society in which the Imams in the mosques quote Koran verses comparing the Jews to pigs and monkeys and call for Jihad against the unbelievers.

There can be no peace with this generation, and not with the one who now leads the Palestinians. That generation has Greater Palestine in his blood.

What needs to be done to end this intifada is decision by Israel that it's time to stop "signaling the Palestinians to stop the violence", and to stop bombing empty buildings and roadblocks.
The goal of the campaign should be the killing of all weapon carrying personell in the territories, the destruction of the Palestinian authority and the blocking of all possible ways to bring more weapons. Even if it means razing half of Rafah in the south of the Gaza strip, to uncover the tunnels.

We must understand that we will never get the support of Europe that is being flooded by Arab immigrants.
The current situation, when Jews are being killed every day and we do nothing to stop it, except preventing a teract here and there and making holes in buildings cannot continue. A decision mut be made. We need to decide whether we surrender, declare on the death of the Zionism and learn to swim preparing for the final Jihad, or whether we go on a real military solution, not the pathetic excuse we see now. We cannot stay in the middle, hoping to return to the negotiations table.


To be continued.

[monolith94]

They all need alot more Palmade, is what they need...

[The Mad Monk]

Oh, I don't know--Bugs' idea of a UN run and sponsored police state has it's merits...

Seriously, Dalgetti, I think your idea is pretty good--especially how it takes care of that little water problem.

[Dr Strangelove]

Send in one to two million troops, establish Palestine as a temporary UN trust territory, but also monitor Israeli activities. Palestine to include the West Bank and Gaza. Prohibit inflammatory speech on both sides. If necessary call in the "Independence Day" aliens.

[steelehc]

I have two ideas.
A)-Dalgetti, I agree with your plan.

B)-We must attack the root of the problem, the fact that the Muslims and Jews have their holy sites in the same place, the Muslim mosque being on top of the Jewish wailing wall. We must give them both a third party to hate. Build a Christian church on top of the muslim mosque, and then build a Buddhist temple on top of the church. On top of all that, we need to build an Arby's. That would piss everyone off.

Shamelessly copied from Late Night with Conan O'Brian.

Steele

[GePap]

Peace in the middle east must be imposed on the parties since, as Eli showed in his disheartening and bone-chilling post, neither side really either understands the other, nor cares to try, since both are too busy looking at themselves in the mirror and saying- "I am the only victim, bohoo". The international community must do all it can to force the two sides to act in ways that complement basic human riights and international laws. This means, even if it will hurt the people, and before this end many will die, restrictive sanctions, including perhaps food and medicine, freezing of all assets, cutting off all travel to and fro, and so forth, as the threatened punitive actions.

Israel must return to 1967 borders, renounce in perpetuity all claims to the occupied teritories (the torah be damned- if God wants to give it to you, let him come down personally), all of them. Paletinians form a state in the occupied terrotiores, they in perpetuaty surrender all claims to the rest of the madate, accept the existance of Israel (they already did this as far back as 1988, but israelis and their US lapdogs don't care to let anyone know about it), and proclaims their state to be a free and democratic one, with no state religion (unlike Israel, since Palestinians are both muslim and christian).All Arab nations recognize Israel politically and repect its right to exist. Demiliterized zones set up. Settlers are given the right to stay, if they become Palestinians, if they don't, at Israel's expense, they are relocated. At Israel's (not the EU nor US, since they are not the guilty parties, even if the US has done no good towards a final outcome) expense, the refugees, in giving up their internationaally recognized and enshrined right of return, will be relocated around the world. Water resources must be reallocated according to economic and basic human needs, something israel has never done. The two economies would become integrated overtime, since it smacks of economic stupidity to belive they will not eventually become so.

Islamic fundamentalism must be rooted out, Chauvinist Zionism ala Jabotinsky, who his fellow Zionist called a facist, must also be rooted out, as well as Jewish fundamentalism, Israeli militarism, Paletinian authoritarianism, and all the other, defucnt and dehumanizing ideologies both parties depend on.

The world needs to stop acting like there is nothing they can do- there is much they can do to force the two parties, without their consent, to talk, since obviously (returning to Eli), if we let the parties go as they are, massacres might no be too far away.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Eli


We must understand that we will never get the support of Europe that is being flooded by Arab immigrants.
The current situation, when Jews are being killed every day and we do nothing to stop it, except preventing a teract here and there and making holes in buildings cannot continue. A decision mut be made. We need to decide whether we surrender, declare on the death of the Zionism and learn to swim preparing for the final Jihad, or whether we go on a real military solution, not the pathetic excuse we see now. We cannot stay in the middle, hoping to return to the negotiations table.


To be continued.

Eli, I've lurked around a few neo-nazi and white supremacist sites in my time, and I can tell you that with a few words changed that post is worthy of any KKK sympathiser. Especially the crap in that first sentance. It's exactly the same logic as used by Holocaust deniers who simply say to anyone arguing with them (usually me) "You're just a Jew commie".

That is unworthy of you. In fact it's unworthy of anyone who's knuckles don't drag on the floor

[Az]

. At Israel's (not the EU nor US, since they are not the guilty parties, even if the US has done no good towards a final outcome) expense, the refugees, in giving up their internationaally recognized and enshrined right of return, will be relocated around the world

noone has to be relocated. how about just giving them the rights they deserve in arab countries.

and how about some compensation for jewish property left in the arab states?


about the water problem : if palestinian growth rate will continue , no matter how humane israel will behave there won't be enough of it . So how about 'hurting the people' once again , and banning having more than 4 kids ? evil ? at least noone will die of malnutrition ( as will happen if the people in the middle east won't wake up and smell the flowers.)

[GePap]

Originally posted by Eli
10 years of PLO dictatorship, media incitement, population brainwashing and Israeli pressure on the population brought a generation whose mothers praise their pizzeria-bomber children. A generation when at the age of 5, a child knows that the Jews see themselves as a master race set to take over the world, he knows that the main city street is called after the most "productive" suicide bomber in the last year, in the kindergarden the nanny praises the boy who says he wants to be a suicide bomber and the girl that is called after a female terrorist who killed 2 men walking in the street.
On the TV, after a commercial of hair shampoo you see a state sponsored commercial calling children to go out to the streets and attack the IDF soldiers. Mothers who refuse to send their children get a visit by the local security services. The next commercial blesses those who kill Jews.
All this, in a primitive intolerant society living under very hard conditions caused by the conflict. A society where large parts of the cities are still managed by hamulas(family gangs), where killing members of opposite hamulas as revenge is considered just. A society where people can storm jails and release prisoners.
A society with hundreds of thousands of people live in the slumps of the refugee camps, while the bank accounts of their corrupted leaders hold hundreds of millions of dollars. The same leaders that call their people to go for Jihad, but most of their time is spent abroad.
A society that needs the help of it's archenemy to build a University. A society where the few people who oppose the ways of the goverment find themselves thrown on the street with broken bones.
A society in which the Imams in the mosques quote Koran verses comparing the Jews to pigs and monkeys and call for Jihad against the unbelievers.

To be continued.

And why is this society so backwards? Could it be because of a 34 years long military occupation, in which normal politcal processes were crushed, in which politcal dissent was rooted out, in which few basic services were provided, an occupation that allowed the camps, with population denstities twice that of manhattan islands, to remain in perpetuatiy because Israel forces these people to remain refugees from their own original homes, could it be a system that bases water usage not on the needs of inhabitants, but on the politiccal goals of Zionism? Who undermines the local economy by setting up a mercantalist system of trade that benefits irael only, to the detriment of Palestinian commerce? Who, with its closing policies, have driven unemployment among Palestinians above 20%? Who made sure that their only economic opportunities at home were working all the low wage jobs israeli Jews didn't wantt to partake in? Who denied whose existence as a people until the mid 70's? Which side has political parties in their legislature calling for ethinic cleansing?

Who allowed the groth of Islamic fundamentalim in the territories as a way to undermine the communist or liberal opposition? It was Israel. Likud allowed Islamic Jihad and Hamas to grow as fast as they did, just ebcause, much like Osma used to be, they were the enemies of the great enemy, the PLO and all its parts.

Until Jews figure out that the hostility they recieve is based on thier chosen path of action, and that until that chosen path of actions changes, they should not even expect respect and peace, then true peace is not possible. Are the islamic militants nice, peaceful guys? No. Are palestinian actss of violence acceptable? No. But, as i have said many times, in and out, these things don't make israeli policy humane or aceptable.

If any hamas members ever read your post, just think, they could go up to some impresionable 14 year old Palestinian and say- "look, this is what Jews think- they want to kill you. What must you do? Kill them first."

[Stefu]

I think everyone just needs a hug.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Dalgetti


noone has to be relocated. how about just giving them the rights they deserve in arab countries.

and how about some compensation for jewish property left in the arab states?

According to international law, all states have the right to control their immigration policy, so no state can be forced to accept refugees as citizens. It would be up to arab states to decide.

As for Jewish property, at the expense of Arab states, Jwes will get compensation. it is not that difficudlt an issue to figure out.

about the water problem : if palestinian growth rate will continue , no matter how humane israel will behave there won't be enough of it . So how about 'hurting the people' once again , and banning having more than 4 kids ? evil ? at least noone will die of malnutrition ( as will happen if the people in the middle east won't wake up and smell the flowers.)

Israeli water policy has been terrible for Palestinians, and it makes little economic sense either. High Palestinian rate of growth are based on both the strenght of religious orthodoxy (just like why hassidim have such huge families) and abject poverty, poverty which was there before 1948, and that the history after then has only made worst. Economic improvement in palestinian areas and birth control will help alleviate this.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Stefu
I think everyone just needs a hug.

Not on this thread.

[Az]

Originally posted by Stefu
I think everyone just needs a hug.

Come here , big guy !

[Az]

Cool GePap . I think we're set then . With minor ajustments, I think our plans are equal.

now say , how will you introduce birth control to an arab state?
look at the growth rates of Dubai, Qatar and Bahrein and you'll see what I mean.

Who denied whose existence as a people until the mid 70's?

they became a "people" for only around 10-15 years earlier.

[Seeker]

The problem is the need to secularize Palestinian and to an extent Israeli society.

The problem is also that too many people have died and need to be avenged.

1. Declare a Palestinian state, with or without PLO consent, with Jerusalem as a shared city. 1967 boundaries.

2. Have UN operated and organized elections. Let PLO candidates run if they want, but if they boycott, ignore them. Support (militarily) a legitimately elected Palestinian government against the PLO.

3.Have aid dollars be administered DIRECTLY by UNHCR. Also, have schools run by the UN as part of the aid package. Attendance is mandatory, and in reality they are 'deprogramming' centers, for 25 years.

4. Treat 'post-partition' terrorists on Israeli soil as terrorists from another nation. Execute them.

5. NATO guarantees the borders of both countries.

Actually, the UN is not a very good agency to do this, judging from Durban, etc. they would give the religious element too much power in a nascent secular democratic Palestinian state.

Some other powerful group of Western nations, who want to see not merely an independent Palestine, but a secular and democratic (and democratic in the sense of rights, rule of law, not just mobocracy).

[GePap]

Originally posted by Dalgetti
Cool GePap . I think we're set then . With minor ajustments, I think our plans are equal.

now say , how will you introduce birth control to an arab state?
look at the growth rates of Dubai, Qatar and Bahrein and you'll see what I mean.

Yeah, but look at Syria and Lybia, both Arab, and also both ruled by secular and slightly socialist goverments. Arabs are no more naturally religious than Jews. The original PLO fighters were all secularists or communists- all of them pro-birth control. All those states you mentioned are semi-feudal, relegious societies, way low in the Marxists scale of development.

they became a "people" for only around 10-15 years earlier.

They became a people when they gained a concisouness that separated them from all other arabs, and this certainly happened by 1956, if not in 1948 itself.

[Eli]

BFB :

Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny
Eli, I've lurked around a few neo-nazi and white supremacist sites in my time, and I can tell you that with a few words changed that post is worthy of any KKK sympathiser. Especially the crap in that first sentance. It's exactly the same logic as used by Holocaust deniers who simply say to anyone arguing with them (usually me) "You're just a Jew commie".

That is unworthy of you. In fact it's unworthy of anyone who's knuckles don't drag on the floor

I assume you're talking about the part you quoted, and not the whole post.

What I was implying by "Arab immigration", is electoral concerns of the leading European parties. Nothing against Arabs in general.
I should've made myself more clear.

As for the rest of the quote, I see nothing wrong there. I asked for a decisive solution saying that the middle way situation is intolerable, implying that one of the solutions, in my opinion, will lead to a second holocaust.

GePap :

And why is this society so backwards? Could it be because of a 34 years long military occupation, in which normal politcal processes were crushed, ...

By looking on the Arab countries around Palestine I assume that without the Israeli occupation Palestine would've been just like them. Backward, fundamentalist country.
Not to mention the fact that there would'nt be any Palestine. Arab countries(in this case, Jordan) dont give up their land as fast as Israel does.

Which side has political parties in their legislature calling for ethinic cleansing?

Both sides.
It's just that on one side this party gets minimal support and it's supporters are treated as lunatics, while on the other side such parties are supported by 70% of the population.

Who allowed the groth of Islamic fundamentalim in the territories as a way to undermine the communist or liberal opposition? It was Israel. Likud allowed Islamic Jihad and Hamas to grow as fast as they did, just ebcause, much like Osma used to be, they were the enemies of the great enemy, the PLO and all its parts.

See my reply to the first quote.
The difference is not that big actually. Islamic fundametalists like the Hamas and Al-Quaeda, or seculars like Syria and Iraq.

Until Jews figure out that the hostility they recieve is based on thier chosen path of action, and that until that chosen path of actions changes, they should not even expect respect and peace, then true peace is not possible. Are the islamic militants nice, peaceful guys? No. Are palestinian actss of violence acceptable? No. But, as i have said many times, in and out, these things don't make israeli policy humane or aceptable.

I truly cant understand why certain Israeli actions make it's policies unacceptable, while ten times worse Palestinian actions make them the victims.
Probably because we have some weakness to underdog freedom fighters.

If any hamas members ever read your post, just think, they could go up to some impresionable 14 year old Palestinian and say- "look, this is what Jews think- they want to kill you. What must you do? Kill them first."

A) I never called to kill that 14 years old. Unless of course he takes an explosive belt or a gun and goes to "eat pizza".
B) This is the exact difference between Israel and Palestine. Your Hamas member, using perverted logic and spreading false accusations, will conclude that all Jews should be killed and no one will challenge him. In Israel, such man will have to look for a lawyer.

[Az]

Yeah, but look at Syria and Lybia, both Arab, and also both ruled by secular and slightly socialist goverments. Arabs are no more naturally religious than Jews. The original PLO fighters were all secularists or communists- all of them pro-birth control. All those states you mentioned are semi-feudal, relegious societies, way low in the Marxists scale of development

only to counter the statement that living standard always equals low pop. growth .

Syria is not , repeat not a secular state. maybe the government is to a certain degree, but the people themselves are not .

no birthcontrol to speak of . in any muslim country.

The lowest there is is Indonesia , with 2.2% , if IIRC.

Who allowed the groth of Islamic fundamentalim in the territories as a way to undermine the communist or liberal opposition?

ermmm what years are we talking about ?

and compare with other muslim-arab countries please.

[Eli]

An actual example supporting this :

This is the exact difference between Israel and Palestine. Your Hamas member, using perverted logic and spreading false accusations, will conclude that all Jews should be killed and no one will challenge him. In Israel, such man will have to look for a lawyer.

Yesterday, in a demonstration against the goverment policies(look, we can have those) organized by the settlers leadership some people called for the deportation of the Arabs. The legal advisor to the goverment reccomended(this is all he can do) the police to start an investigation saying that such calls are against the anti-racism law.