No room for civility any more?

[Dienstag]

...can't read this whole thread so-far and not respond...

ALL YOU *BLEEP* *BLEEPIN'* *BLEEPERS* CAN JUST go...umm...

Nah, nevermind, I like being civil too. Actually I strive for it. (Just in case someone got the wrong impression, the above *bleepin'* line was meant to be humorous. You can laugh now, if you like...)


##This is the part of the post where I try to be productive:##

I've seen a few possible explanations mentioned in this thread about why the level of civility seems to have gone down. (I agree. It used to be better than this.) Here's my quickly compiled list of causes, and some suggestions for possible solutions. This isn't going to be perfect so bring on the comments.

[listofstuffandsuggestions]

1. There are way more people in the forums these days, therefore more trolls, etc...

solution: can't think of anything other than a massive banning campaign, which is not very appealing to me. Otherwise, just cope.

2. [opinion?] CivIII is lacking in strategic depth and replayabilty, therefore positive, focused conversation is less prevalent. [fact]Rants, and repetative newbie questions make up higher percentage of threads. To rephrase in techno-jargon: The signal-to-noise ratio is lower.

solution: possibly, those who really care can try to make more/better discussions about those aspects of the game that haven't been discussed to death yet, even if that means somewhat more effort to find those topics. To me, that doesn't seem very appealling, especially compared to the alternative of trying to be constructive and creative in helping someone (Firaxis, Velgames...?) produce a game that is worthy of sustained, insightful discussion. Not sure if that would fall in CivIII General, though.

3. Firaxis PR is curiously sparse, offering prodigious fodder for anti-Firaxis flame threads. Incivility ensues.

solution: Twofold. First, I feel that Firaxis could do well provide a little more feedback. You know, everybody loves feedback. It may even be an instinct, or something. I gladly welcome every post by a Firaxian, even Dan's quip a page back in this thread. It just seems too little, too seldom. Second, though, no amount of PR (or lack thereof) is excuse for incivility, so it's everyone's responsibilty to cope as best as possible. (That's common sense; I probably didn't need to write that.)

4. Polarized players have greater difference in opinion than with other games, from the very disappointed to the very pleased. This naturally leads to more disagreement and a higher potential for flaming. (For the record, I am both pleased with and dissappointed in CivIII, if that's possible.)

solution: This all comes down to everyone being on his/her best behavior. This means respecting others' ideas, arguing rationally and not resorting to put-downs, agreeing to disagree, and even ignoring people if a "...conversation can serve no further purpose." (strained 2001:ASO reference there, sorry) This thread is a great example of civility, so there really isn't much else to do but to go out and lead by example.
[/listofstuffandsuggestions]


Anything else? I think the main point is to lead by example, and to not stoop to a level you wouldn't want to see in others.

Hoping for a more civilized (and generally lively) forum,
-Dienstag

[Captain]

Originally posted by Tuberski


Uncle Ben the rice guy?

I think you know who I mean,
but for clarification it's Ben Parker, husband to May Parker, uncle of Peter Parker (aka Spiderman).

When Peter Parker first got his powers, he used them to earn cash by fighting in the wrestling ring (simple mask over face) and then becoming a showman (thus, the flashy red and blue costume). One day as he was walking out of the entertainment studio, a thief ran past him. A cop called out for Spiderman to stop him and while Spiderman could easily have done so (with no risk to himself), he didn't. He figured it wasn't his problem. That cop should earn his pay and get the criminal himself.

Later that night, he returns home to find his aunt in hysterics. Their home has been robbed and uncle Ben was shot by the thief. Peter Parker vows to hunt down the thief as Spiderman and make him pay. He tracks him down and when he corners him in an empty warehouse, he recognizes the thief as the one he let slip by him. Parker realizes that while he did not pull the trigger, he was partly to blame for the events. He could have prevented it with just a little effort. Parker then dedicates his life to helping others as Spiderman, never more making a mistake by failing to act.

I think you can easily figure out how this relates to the thread topic. Doing the right thing (being civil) takes a little effort, but we may soon regret not making the effort. We set the tone for others by the way we conduct ourselves.

But don't forget, the story doesn't end there. Spiderman's tale was just beginning (and it went pretty well until the weird clone crap caused the series to disintegrate).

[Captain]

Originally posted by Peter Triggs


Captain,

ROTF. Maybe I just have a strange sense of humour, but the logical nuances in that struck me as excellently hilarious.

uhhh, thanks?

I wasn't really meaning to make a joke, it just sortof came out that way. Glad to have entertained though. Apparently that's all the good it was for since DarkCav shot down my thesis.

Perhaps some would say I gave to much credit to his comments, but I value giving the benefit of the doubt.

[Captain]

Originally posted by Dienstag
I've seen a few possible explanations mentioned in this thread about why the level of civility seems to have gone down. (I agree. It used to be better than this.) Here's my quickly compiled list of causes, and some suggestions for possible solutions. This isn't going to be perfect so bring on the comments.

Hmmmm, I was just thinking... are the forums really getting any worse than they were before?

It seems most are agreeing, but I just want to point out that this seems to fit a sociological phenomenon (I don't know the technical name but I call it Golden-age-ism) of always looking upon the past as the kinder, gentler, and better time. Typically the domain of conservatism (example: oh, those good old victorian days when everyone was so polite! we conveniently forget that blacks were slaves and women weren't persons) but it applies equally to the world. (Confucianism is a good example of this, as well as some Caste system corollaries).

(OT Rant: Example number two is the return to educational basics programs where politicians who have no sense of true pedagogy start forcing programs designed to bring us back to the glory days of education - when failure to memorize times tables brought you the strap and when teachers' apparently never had to deal with violence or teenage pregnancy in schools. The reality is that the problems have always been there and new concept-based learning is turning out smarter people, only our tests can't show it because the tests don't measure understanding, they test the ability to regurgitate. )

Was it really better in those days? Or are we undergoing some form of nostalgia?

Either way, the question and Vel's request are still valid. We seem to pretty interested in it, look at all the posts!

Anything else? I think the main point is to lead by example, and to not stoop to a level you wouldn't want to see in others.

-Dienstag

Great point!
Not to toot my own horn, but in a year, I don't think I've gotten into a flame war yet, or have been insulted directly. I don't think I've insulted anyone else or slammed any ideas. (apologies to anyone who has felt insulted). I usually try to give good reasons when expressing my opinion on sensitive issues (esp. politics, religion, history) as opposed to whether the mountain grfx are "too red". Then again, I don't often get a lot of responses to my posts so perhaps I am not being controversial enough I can see how letting one's mouth run away with them can lead to increased entertainment and livelier (though less intelligent) debate. After all, it works for TV and radio shows.

[Immortal Wombat]

Looks like my post almost dropped this into the realms of incivility. Lucky that Vel and others are still nice.

Did someone (TDC?) dare me to ask Ming to close this forum? I think Markos would be a better person to ask. I'll just find his email address.....

[Ming]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
Did someone (TDC?) dare me to ask Ming to close this forum? I think Markos would be a better person to ask. I'll just find his email address.....

I think MarkG is more likely to shut down some posters than he is to shut this forum down. But feel free to email him, I'm sure he could use a good laugh

[Tarquelne]

Origionally I posted a "serious" response to TDC's last post in response to mine, on stupid questions. Then I read the rest of the thread, when TDC raised his (possibly) true colors.

I'll wait for his answer to the "or are you an ass" question. Um... sorry, that's not true. I'm going to _assume_ he's one untill I see evidence to the contrary. (I mean, maybe his account was hacked, maybe he's being held hostage and forced to write those things, maybe - and this is the scary possibility - maybe he really thinks he's funny.)

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by Ming


I think MarkG is more likely to shut down some posters than he is to shut this forum down. But feel free to email him, I'm sure he could use a good laugh

I really sympathise with Laz at times like this. Re-read my post with a at the end.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
I really sympathise with Laz at times like this. Re-read my post with a at the end.

I did read it with a at the end... didn't you see mine

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by Ming
I did read it with a at the end... didn't you see mine

Should stop with this ignore list...

[Velociryx]

'tis good to see all the replies here, and that people are taking such an active interest in the topic OF civility in our posts.

And Wombat....lol...casting out the demons, eh? I kinna like the sounds of that! Ideas for where to start?

I'm glad to have gotten a number of kudos for starting the thread, but it's you guys....all of us collectively that will make the difference....that's really cool, I think....

-=Vel=-

[Steve Clark]

Since some of us long-timers having been popping up here, I must as well chime in here, if just for my friend Vel if nothing else.

I was around when the E3 list was being created, then through the yin wars that cost him his "job", then through the millions of complaints that Firaxis was not providing every single bit of information and through all of the noise prior to release. As predicted, once Civ3 was released, then the nature and purpose of the forum would change, not only due to the rush of newcomers, but to something concrete we can attack or praise. But this cycle is no different than many other fora of popular games, and Apolyton shouldn't be expected to be any different (it's not).

Part of my uncivility in the past comes from countering realistic expectations with those who insisted on espousing unrealistic expectations. And since the release, it was very clear that Civ3 needed more work, but apparently some civer's egos were bruised (for whatever reasons) that caused them to lash out and thus started the downward polarization spiral. My point had been, as with Ming's, that there is nothing wrong with voicing complaints, suggestions and such, but do so in a civil (there's that word again) manner. Unfortunately, some vocal members here felt no need to do that and thus continued the downward polarization spiral. I have not been contributing much of anything to Civ3 because I still feel that they took a great game (Civ2) and ruined it with our lists of changes, as well as with bringing disparate elements from the other civ games (and from the awful EU games).

Personally, I have been waiting patiently for the release of the scenarios and a full scenario editor to contribute to this community again. I also expect that the Civ3 fora will evolve into like the Civ2 fora where the Strategy and MP fora held serious, civil discussions and the General was just a dumping ground (most all of the Civ2 scenarios stuff was in the Scenario League forum).

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Steve Clark
...but apparently some civer's egos were bruised (for whatever reasons) that caused them to lash out and thus started the downward polarization spiral.

It's somewhat ironic that people place so much of their identity within a game, to the point that any criticism of a game becomes a criticism of the person who likes the game. The line really becomes blurred.

So if somebody makes some critical remark about an in-game mechanic or about the way a company handles a patch, then the person who really likes the game ends up taking that comment personally. Then all it takes is a ill-placed comment to set that person off - usually a subtle, or not-so-subtle comment that is directed at the person personally. For some, it doesn't even need the personal attack to set them off.

I have to be honest, it's like driving past a car wreck when the flames start - you don't want to look, but secretly you end up doing so.

It's funny that we place so much effort into defending/criticizing a computer game.

Personally, I have really appreciated the comments from players who may have not liked the game, because they usually end up raising issues about the game that will never come from the company or from players who really like the game. I think it is very valuable to have that info presented, so I, as a consumer can make an informed decision. I ended up getting the game as a Christmas present, but have yet to play it because according to that info, the game has flaws that would detract from my enjoyment - I have expectations of what I wanted the game to meet and those have not been met.

One valuable lesson is not to rush out and buy anything the day/week it is released.

The question then becomes... 'why even post here then?' That is a valid point, and for some people here, they have every right to take anything I say as worthless.

I do hold out hope that the game will be eventually adequately patched, but I guess the main reason why I am here is that I do see value in the criticism, because it is through that criticism that the game can be improved, ethier via patch or a powerful editor. Firaxis would be well-served to put a high priority on the Editor.

If people who staunchly defend the game realize that most of their defense of the game is based on preference issues, and if those who also are critical of the game realize that players may like the game as is, then that might clear up some of the anger. Lighten up, everyone...

Originally posted by Steve Clark
(...and from the awful EU games)

That would constitute a preference, but I won't hold that against you...

[Velociryx]

Hiya Steve! And it's good to see your name here too! Was wondering where you'd been hiding, but your post, in addtion to brilliantly encapsulating the history and trend of the spiral, answered that question as well.

It's a rare gift to be able to convey so much good information in a few insightful paragraphs, and one of the many reasons your presence on the boards is missed.

I'm glad you decided to post here!

Hex, your points too, are well taken. In fact, I'm probably guilty of taking some of the criticisms of the game to heart. In the early days of Civ3's release, I was an avid fan and staunch supporter. I couldn't believe people were insulting "my" Civ game! How dare they!?

Trouble is...many, if not most of those criticisms were spot on....Civ3 IS a game with some problems, some of them minor, and some of them fairly major.

Oddly, after enough time immersed in the guts of the game, I "switched sides." Could no longer continue avid support of a game with what I perceived and considered too many design flaws, stemming from bedrock level design decisions. All of a sudden then, I found myself criticizing the game, and perhaps unintentionally stinging others as I had once been stung myself.

That was....a somewhat strange turn of events to my brain.

And, as time went by...watching more and more flame fests erupt, it dawned on me that, while I DO have my issues with the design of the game, the fact is, it's still pretty solid, and with work, can be massaged toward greatness in my mind.

The best way I can think to do that is through civil discussion and patience.

Full circle for me then? I dunno. I'm not what you could describe as optimistic about it, but am still more than willing to participate in the ongoing discussions....

-=Vel=-

[Capt Dizle]

In your mind maybe where greatness must be defined as putrid, rotting but not quite yet rank enough to make you puke on sight.

jt

[Capt Dizle]

Actually, I have been playing a lot. I actually appreciate Firaxis's efforts to patch it up, but, IMHO, in some ways its worse now that before because they don't test the darn stuff. The fix is sometimes worse than the bug/flaw.

[Velociryx]

Agreed, JT....your comment the other day re: unforseen consequences catching up with them rings VERY true.

-=Vel=-

[notyoueither]

The problem isn't (wasn't) criticism Vel.

As someone who participated in the flaming at a certain point, I had no problems with your reasons for turning off on the game or your statements about those reasons. There was nothing personal to me about them, except that I did not share your feelings.

I did take exception to two things when I first started posting on this forum. 1. Personal attacks on Firaxians who could do nothing (or next to nothing) in response. 2. Insults to the people who liked the game and said so. I will fully accept my responsibility for my statements back in those (recent) days of slander and flaming, however I partook for a reason and I believe that reason was valid.

I do not want to say who cast the first stone for I do not know. However, I have noticed that things have improved lately. It has been a while since I have seen *Fan-boy* and *Whiner* strewn throughout 75% of the active threads on General. Maybe I just haven't been paying enough attention.

I will say this though, even though I know that many will disagree with me. The mods are way too slow with the ban. I noticed Ironikit's (sp?) recent behaviour as I'm sure you did too. Did you notice the prior thread where he used some similarly coloured language? Did you notice that he wasn't banned then even though it was brought to the attention of the mods/admins? Was it a case of give them an inch and they'll take a mile? Maybe.

BTW. Good thread.

Salve

[Ming]

Originally posted by notyoueither
The mods are way too slow with the ban. I noticed Ironikit's (sp?) recent behaviour as I'm sure you did too. Did you notice the prior thread where he used some similarly coloured language? Did you notice that he wasn't banned then even though it was brought to the attention of the mods/admins?

Contrary to popular belief... banning is a LAST resort. We don't sit around waiting with our hand over the banning button going...
GEE LOOK, ANOTHER LOSER... HA HA HA HA

If we banned EVERYBODY that has ever lost their temper or said a swear word, we would have more restricted members than active members.

"mild" flaming is allowed... When people are discussing things they take very seriously, we expect a little friction...
When we see it (and no we don't read everything that is posted, some of the stuff has to be pointed out to us) we try to first chill things down in a low key fashion. If that doesn't work, we become far more direct. If that doesn't work, we then restrict people. Usually, it takes REPEATED abuses before we do as such... unless a killer flame war breaks out. And even then, we prefer to only nail the main players, and not just sweep up everybody in the net.

If we just restricted people left and right, the forum would go crazy with complaints about a Nazi State, Freedom of Speech... Blah Blah Blah... making things even worse. (Believe me when I say... been their, done that)

We are trying to walk a fine line between the ability of members to argue the issues, and keeping things from getting out of hand.

This is a private site, and the owners can make any rules they want. Freedom of speech doesn't exist... but the owners would like to provide a place for freedom of discussion.

If you ever see a post that you think is over the limit, help us out and PM me to make sure I see it...

If you don't like the way things are done... there are other civ sites where moderation is much harsher. There are also civ sites with very limited moderation. The choice is your to make.

But while you are here, you will live by this forum rules!

If you have a problem with any rule... or a moderators actions...
Feel free to contact the owners via PM or Email. Or, as many do, you can post a thread in the Apolyton Community Forum. But PM's and Email usually get faster response, and is not so public

Hmmmm... time to get off my soap box...

Keep on Civin'

[notyoueither]

See Ming, that's the thing. I don't have a problem with you, personally, or the job that you do. Man you must have a lot of patience to sit through all the sh... (consults Dictionary of Civil Usage)... stuff that you do.

Furthermore, I like the openness of Poly. That's one of the reasons why I am here.

However, Iron called somebody a... (flip, flip, flip)... felatio generating entity and was not banned for it. After that I guess he didn't know what it would take. That's my point.

BTW. Did I mention that I really appreciate the intent of the owners to encourage the relatively free exchange of ideas? Did I mention that I think the mods must be nuts to sign on to do the jobs they do? Did I say that I really appreciate the efforts of the people behind the scenes who have made Poly possible? Just thought I would take the opportunity to do so.

Salve

[Ming]

Iron is currently doing a three week term in Mingapulco...
After that, any transgression will lead him back there.

Seems fair to me

[notyoueither]

There was a previous episode. About 4 weeks ago? Then it was a single post. Now it was across an entire thread.

Somebody (Lib?) brought it to Markos' attention in a thread he was participating in (maybe you too, but I haven't checked). No response (or next to none).

My reason for bringing this up? How can any environment remain civil where such flagrant abuses are tolerated or ignored?

Salve

[Ming]

Originally posted by notyoueither
My reason for bringing this up? How can any environment remain civil where such flagrant abuses are tolerated or ignored?
Salve

They are neither tolerated, or ignored. But again, banning isn't the first resort. This place would go balistic if that was the case.
As it is, people go crazy when we actually ban somebody that deserves it... (you don't want to read my PM's or Email)

We can't watch these forums every second... we do the best we can without making things worse.

[Capt Dizle]

Of course you can't watch this forum every minute Ming. You spend half your time posting at Counterglow.

jt

[Ming]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
Of course you can't watch this forum every minute Ming. You spend half your time posting at Counterglow.
jt

Give me a break... I have to go somewhere to relax
If you had to read as much of these forums as you could... you would find some other forum to kick back on too

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Ming
we do the best we can without making things worse.

Well... I guess we'll have to take the good with the bad. Open Poly means a sometimes ugly Poly. I'll take the open option.

I guess that leaves the situation up to us, the posters. Right Vel?

Salve

[Ming]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I guess that leaves the situation up to us, the posters. Right Vel?
Salve

Yeah... it is up to the posters. Because they are Apolyton. Yes, there is a whole world of Apolyton that many posters don't see.
Many are just interested in the forums... But, the forums is where we interact.

The posters and people that contribute to this site are what makes Apolyton what it is... a community.

It is indeed up to us...

[Antonin]

Originally posted by DATarbell
For the most part, I have avoided the Apolyton Civ3 forums for months now--entirely due to the excessive amount of "incivility" (is that the right word?) and a seeming lack of tolerance....

Unfortunately, I'm also not surprised by the continued ugliness that keeps raising its ugly head in these forums.

This is entirely the reason I have been avoiding Apolyton recently. But this is an excellent thread.

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by Antonin


But this is an excellent thread.

indeed it is.
in fact, this thread is the reason i decided to start posting here. as long as there are enough members who have a similar philosophy to me then i think i will be happy here. without wanting to sound like a fortune cookie or something (what the hell, actually i DO want to): how much you get out of the forum depends on how much you put in.

peace and love, man

[moomin]

Having just found this thread, I can only agree. I've been haning around Poly for some time, even if I never posted much, and it seems to me things recently gotten worse.

It is entirely possible to express yourself politely if you want to.

But then again, I happen to think that it's not only us, it's the game and the developers as well. I can't imagine a more effective way of generating frustration - and along with it, rudeness - than the intentional almost, but not entirely, non-participation that the FIraxis guys been doing here.

The fact that everyone and their grandma has their own set of rules for the game, making serious strategic discussion in the Vel-SMAC genre almost impossible contributes as well. But I can't be the only person to have noticed that the general levels of participation and the number of posts seem to have dropped of sharply after the third patch, so perhaps we're headed for some new equilibrium.

All that said; here's the off-topic material: Vel! Where's the meat about Velocigames and the Game Whose Name No Mere Mortal Can Recall? I'm dying to hear some news, man! If you're about to adapt Firaxis' doctrine on forum participation, please tell us so...