Getting the most out of your Elites - Page 2

dac · March 14, 2002, 12:26

I only have annecdotal evidence to offer, but the AI does seem to target Elite units, especially injured ones. I try and retreat out my injured units either back to a safe city, or just a safe distance away. In 1.17f, that's a lot harder to do now, as instead of the AI just mindlessly marching off to sack the weakest city in my empire (where ever that might be), the offensive units seem to:
1) Target injured units
2) Target Elite units

I haven't seen enough war on 1.17 to know if there are any other targeting priorities.

One observation, the Persians declared war on my Germans, and I cannot figure out why. They didn't owe me any money, and we were on pretty good terms. The only thing I can think of was that it directly attacked the two cities I'd built specifically to culture flip a city of his that had access to iron, which I needed. Scary, if it figured that tactic out bad enough to want to eliminate those cities.

Arrian · March 14, 2002, 12:29

dac,

I have noticed that if I build a city in close to the AI's city in order to either try to flip theirs or to steal a resource away from them by expanding my borders, they will attack me. This, I believe, is an undocumented tweak to the AI (good job, Soren). In 1.16, this would typically not happen.

-Arrian

dac · March 14, 2002, 12:33

I program for a living, and although I don't have any experience with AI programming, it seems to me that unless it's just making a simple distance check, that's a pretty sweet piece of coding. Also means I'm going to have to work harder at this game, always a good thing.

Soren Johnson · March 14, 2002, 13:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
Hmm... well, maybe you guys are right. Soren? Dan? Anybody, care to comment?

-Arrian

- all veteran units have equal probability of upgrading to elite.

and

- there is no GL creation bonus for militaristic civs.

Arrian · March 14, 2002, 13:24

Thanks for clearing those questions up, Soren.

How about the AI's apparent reaction to attempted culture bombing? Or am I just imagining things?

-Arrian

rpodos · March 14, 2002, 15:00

Arrian, I am glad you have found the joys of warmongering. It's not all blood and guts though, as you found. Probably the most enjoyable part, for me at least, is that I get to build all of the stuff I want, and thus create a greaaat civ.

As for the upgrading issue, I think what we've left out so far is relative unit strength. I actually mean two different things by that:

1. What is the strength benefit of the upgrade? Clearly, warrior to swordman or equal UU, archer to longbowmen, horseman to knight or equal UU, and spearman to musketman are pretty compelling. So I'll usually do those right away. But I often leave my elite knights or equal UU alone for a while.

2. Also, what is the general strength of your units versus the civs with whom you are at war? If I've achieved a tech lead, or am at least at parity, I may delay upgrading (especially for defenders in strong positions). In fact, I'll usually use the elite but less powerful unit at least one more time on a weak defender, and THEN upgrade to instantly heal. BTW, this sentiment also applies to the regular vs. vet vs. elite issue, in that I will use the AI's dramatically weaker defenders as training fodder to upgrade any straggling regulars.

Lastly and anecdotally, the AI DEFINITELY goes after weak units. I think it is just part of the algorithm deciding where to attack, and where there is the highest likelihood to win battle. The opposite, for instance, is a stack of 2-3 four-infantry armies (fortified on a mountain in a fortress!!!). The AI never (?) attacks then.

R

ps: Soren, thanks for responding about militaristic and GL creation. This devalues militaristic for me quite a lot, since I fight so much that getting elites is not a problem. Too bad, I love the samurai animation!

ducki · November 24, 2002, 04:38

I recently started a "Can I Generate Five Leaders" game, so I thought I'd resurrect this thread in lieu of starting a new one.

I think I've figured out the single most important factor in generating Great Leaders.

Luxuries.

Yes, all the other stuff is important.
Selectively fighting with Elites, Fighting a lot with Elites, Relative Strength, and plenty of other concepts discussed here and on the Wonder Guide thread, as well as other places.

But in my game - Japan, Regent, Pangea, Large, 10 Civs, Sedentary Barbs - I've been at war from the time I had 6 horsemen and 3 swordsmen until Gunpowder, and you just can't do that with cranky civilians.

Well, you can, but it gets expensive.
I've gotten lucky. I've got 5 or 6 luxuries.
And marketplaces.

I got one Leader with a Horseman in the Late Ancient after one short war with China and in the middle of a Looooooooooong war with Egypt.
Created an Army, added the Elite* Horseman, wandered around with a Vet Sword and Elite Horseman looking for easy prey. (Workers don't count as a victory, btw). Killed an Archer and built the Epic.

Then, in 840AD, a Samurai became a Leader and I stole Sistine away from Egypt, having built SunTzu's normally. I picked Sistine over Leo's because a)I love getting 6 contents from every Cathedral and b)I hate when the AI gets 6 contents from every Cathedral.

In 900AD, another Samurai became a Leader while taking the Mongol capitol.

All this time, constant wars with China, Egypt, India, Mongolia from the BCs to nearly 1000AD, I've had a lot of WLT*D time. In fact, most of it.

Without all those luxuries, I'd either be too poor to have upgraded to Samurai and would have had to sue for peace, or I'd be having serious disorder problems.

So, I propose that Content and Happy citizens, and therefore Luxuries, are the single most important factor in generating Leaders, simply because in a Republic, it's so difficult to wage war with cranky peaceniks.

DaveMcW · November 24, 2002, 05:29

Militaristic beats Luxuries

Theseus · November 24, 2002, 14:26

Yup, happiness is the Key Enabler for many things...

Civ3: The Happiness Game

ducki · November 25, 2002, 02:31

930AD and I'm up to 4 leaders.

Even when I'm not Militaristic, I have almost this many Elites running around, but with all these luxuries, I'm not seeing any Peaceniks.

Since I lost my first Army, I used #3 for another one, since there are no wonders to build and my empire is rather screwy, so there's no "good" place for a FP.

With #4, I just don't know what to do... I can either wait until I take a couple more cities, giving me a better spot for placement, or I can hold him, wasting all my upcoming Elite battles, or I can make another Army.

/sigh

At any rate, if you want Leaders, it seems you have to go "looking for them", not merely "maximize your Elites".

Sure, maximizing your Elites increases your chances, but if you really want leaders, you have to be willing to fight wars, long ones, or many of them. You need lots of Elite victories (and a few Elite deaths) to appease the Leader God whose name is RNG.

I'm not up to my designated 5 yet, and I may have to take a break until Cavalry, now that everyone has Gunpowder, or find those that don't have Saltpeter.

Speaking of "Getting the most out of your Elites" - I've been joining my Generated a Leader Elites into my Army.
Logic being, they're Samurai, so even when I can't use them as offense, they defend as well as Muskets, 10 hitpoints(soon to be 15) on a 4 attack is a nice nutcracker, and ...

I like the graphic.
The flagbearer, the General giving orders...
It just looks so neat.

Anyway!!!
What do you guys do with your "Leadered Elites" - Put them in Armies? Upgrade ASAP? Use them as cannon fodder?

DaveMcW · November 25, 2002, 02:57

If my Elite* unit lives long enough it is the first to be upgraded. But I always put them on the front lines, attacking right before conscripts/regulars. Amazingly enough they sometimes do survive to be upgraded.

vmxa1 · November 25, 2002, 03:22

Upgrade them if you can or put them in an Army, those are good choices. Yes if you want lots of leaders you need to be at war for long periods and wiht more than one civ. Do not sit on leaders if you want more of them. You can always make an army and not fill it up until you are ready.

ducki · November 25, 2002, 03:37

There are only two times when I will "hold" a leader.

1 - if I'm very close to a new tech with a Wonder I really, really, really want.

2 - if, by holding him, I can grab two wonders on the same turn, thus seriously shafting all the AIs that thought they had a "fallback". I love making them waste 400-600 shields.

ducki · November 25, 2002, 03:39

Oh, duh. The reason I responded was, I can switch from my Mil.Trad. beeline and get Music Theory in 9 turns and steal Bach's (or probably trade for Music sooner), which is why I considered waiting for Music.

Arrian · November 25, 2002, 09:52

ducki,

I'm glad to see you are having some leader-generation success.

I didn't get to play friday night (gf) and then when I did get going, I didn't really have a typical game, despite playing China. I think I've generated 2 leaders, and I'm in the industrial age. #1 was used for a palace move (more than worth it... at this point, it was game over), and #2 made a 3-Cavalry army. I would have liked a 3rd to hold for Hoover, but whatever.

You are absolutely right about the power of luxuries. That's why I target them so aggressively. They help you, hurt the AI, and allow you to continue fighting when you're a republic or demo.

-Arrian

Jawa Jocky · November 25, 2002, 11:19

I'm currently playing as the Celts and have had 51 elite victories with only 2 GL spawned. (Palace Move and Adam Smith)

I did discover a great GW combo (I'm sure I'm not the 1st). Sun Z and Leonardo are very powerful together.

vmxa1 · November 25, 2002, 13:09

Leo's is more valuable then ever with PTW and the extra opportunities for upgrades.

Catt · November 25, 2002, 17:46

@ducki - glad to see you're generating leaders. Note that you've got 4 even before MIlitary Tradition. The real leader-fests begin with tanks, the first unit with blitz ability (multiple attacks in the same turn). When you hear about people using leaders on marketplaces, airports, cathedrals, even temples, it is almost always in the era of huge tank / modern armor wars where it is not unheard of to get multiple leaders on the same turn (provided you use them up right away of course

.

Four leaders before cavalry is pretty darn good.

Catt

ducki · November 25, 2002, 18:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Catt
Four leaders before cavalry is pretty darn good.

The expense is mighty high, though.
My infrastructure is horrid.
I'm embarrased, actually, but that could be partly due to the fact that Japan is not industrious. Still, I don't like it.

My empire is woefully overstretched.
With leader #4, I'm seriously confused as to what to do.
Can a FP city get flipped? if so, I have nowhere to put it and no wonders to build right now. I've already got a 2-samurai, soon-to-be 3-samurai army with my spent Elite* Samurais.

It's also been expensive it terms of diplomatic development. Over half the civs think I'm Dr. Evil or Monty Burns.("I was saying Boo-urns.") 3 of the AIs are what I expect to turn into "problems" in the industrial age.

Generating leaders is definitely a decision. If you set out to create them, you will get them - assuming you pay attention to all that has been written before on this thread and the Wonder Guide thread and others. You need lots of war and lots of elites and lots of "intelligent" battles.

In light of nearly reaching my goal....

I retract all my previous whining about Leaders, though I still think the first Victorious Army for any civ should act like the Manhattan Project for Military Academy. If you make them a priority you will find them. If you don't, you might not.

Still, previous whining about leaders retracted.
I just hadn't focused on them, which is the key.

Jawa Jocky · November 25, 2002, 20:12

Quote:

Originally posted by ducki

Can a FP city get flipped?

Yes, but your palace can't. For this reason I usually build the FP close to my capital and then start jump the Palace around for the rest of the game.

vmxa1 · November 25, 2002, 22:26

Since PTW and maybe even 129f I think you can dismiss any concerns about the FP flipping. Unelss you plan on sitting it next to their captiol and let them stay around. Yes it could occur, but not really.

ducki · November 26, 2002, 04:44

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
Since PTW and maybe even 129f I think you can dismiss any concerns about the FP flipping. Unelss you plan on sitting it next to their captiol and let them stay around. Yes it could occur, but not really.

That's pretty much exactly my situation.
I really want out of this war and I'd like to put my FP in some of the better land, but it's right next to the Mongols capital.

Or was.

I actually knocked him down to one city now.
Since I'm done with this game once I get leader 5, I'm not gonna stress about the FP this time.

I just wanted to see if my lack of leaders was RNG or Playstyle.

It was playstyle.
Thanks for all the help, everyone!

Arrian · November 26, 2002, 12:08

I'm typically happy with 3 leaders in ancient/early medieval warfare.

1 for a palace move for FP
1 for one major wonder
1 for an army/HE
(not necessarily in that order, of course)

Any more is gravy. I think the most I've had during that time (ancient/early medieval) is 7. That was ridiculous. IIRC, all seven were created with horsemen. I hadn't even busted out my Samurai yet. That was the game that spoiled me and sent me searching for Ultimate Power.

The wonder I like to rush with a leader is often Sun Tzu, because I sometimes struggle to build all three of the ST/Sistine/Leo trio, and if I have to let one go, it will be ST. But if a leader comes along, the problem is solved. IMO, if you manage to get those three, and the AI does not have the tech for any other wonders (Cops/Bach), you're all set . You break the cascade, make them waste tons of shields, and deny them any benifit.

In my Chinese game mentioned above, I have the Pyramids (captured), Sun Tzu, Sistine, Bach, Smith, Hoover. Well, I actually have everything except the Colossus, Oracle and Great Lighthouse (which I burned to the ground) but bear with me...

This means that every city has a free granary, barracks and hydro plant, all markets/banks/harbors built are free of upkeep, +2 content people per city, and cathedrals have 2x effect. Result: I topped out at $11,000 gold while researching at a 4 turn pace (to be fair, it's on Monarch), before I started buying factories in marginal cities. I'm down to $4500ish now, due to my last rush-buying binge, which included getting the only Ironworks-capable city in my empire up to 10 shields (10 out of 22. Temple, Cathedral, courthouse, policestation, factory all purchased after 1 turn of "building" The city did come with a marketplace and is on a river). Not bad, considering there are 4 cities between it and my palace (at my almost-perfectionist spacing, that's a ways).

I think it's time to install PTW. I bought it last weekend, but haven't got around to it yet.

-Arrian
(sorry for the rambling)

Catt · November 26, 2002, 15:01

Quote:

Originally posted by ducki

Can a FP city get flipped?

Ask alexman. I think this was 1.29f, but not certain.

See this thread.

EDIT: I posted a link to a post and meant to post to the thread. Scroll to the top of the thread if you click the link.

Catt

Arrian · November 26, 2002, 18:14

Yeah, a FP city can flip. I've had it happen once. I knew better, too. I knew the city was at risk and I did it anyway - the game wasn't really going all that well as it was. The city flipped, and I nodded, accepted that I screwed up and quit.

-Arrian

vmxa1 · November 26, 2002, 19:00

It seems to me that if you put the FP in a place that it could flip, it is also in a place that it can be captured or destroyed. IOW not really the best move you could make. I am not going to put an FP or a Palace in such a location. Well I will if I have the troops to smash the near by cities and thereby make the flip/capture highly unlikely. This is more common for me when I drop in on a new land mass and grab one city. The culture is a threat, but I have lots of units. They will counter and then I will start to take down near by cities and maybe cut of the roads. This slows the counter attack and reduce the culture impact.

Catt · November 26, 2002, 19:42

@vmxa1 -- look at the link I posted a few posts above and go to the beginning of that thread posted by aleman -- he posts before and after minimap shots of his FP city flip and it's not in a position to be captured or destroyed.

That said, I think a flipping FP city must be exceedingly rare.

Catt

vmxa1 · November 26, 2002, 23:12

Catt, I would suspect that is not 129f as I just do not see much flip even in place it should. BUt be that as it may, I think that this case is just so extraordinary that it is not worth considering. It is like being one of the three people in the USA that has a very rare desease, you just can not factor it into your consideration before the fact. It does not change anything I said.

vmxa1 · November 26, 2002, 23:17

I should point out that before 129f I would change my position as I did see freaking flips, although none quite that bad. I had a citiy flip that was isolated from all cities, but mine and had been mine for a long time and was happy, etc and boom. But I do not see that any longer. In fact I have taken to be a little more dangerous with large cities as the flip factor seems lower than ever, but that is only my perception.

ducki · November 27, 2002, 01:39

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
as the flip factor seems lower than ever, but that is only my perception.

Or it could be that you've learned how to manage the flip potential better.
Familiarity changes both perception and odds for success..

... as I found out in my Leader Generation Game.