Iroquois aren't important enough to be in Civ3

[Alanus]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
Alanus.

Yes, what's the message ?

[Spiffor]

I think Sagacious answered to "who resurrected this thread ?" by simply saying your name. You're guilty to have resurrected a one-star ranted thread !

[trickey]

i think that the civs should be groubed by their area, not just the borders pf thier country (e.i: canada being included as part of america cause they really started at the same time even if no official country was set up

[Alanus]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I think Sagacious answered to "who resurrected this thread ?" by simply saying your name. You're guilty to have resurrected a one-star ranted thread !

Got you. Well, I'm just back in this forum after 2 years of silence so I've just browsed accross the forum and gave my opinion on not that too old threads.
The moderator can close it anyway is not of interest

[Dauphin]

I was answering the question as Spiffor said.

Carry on....

[siredgar]

Yes, the Iroquois deserve to be in Civ 3, but only if there were 32 civs in the game. I am not into "space-fillers", but the Iroquois had some impressive achievements compared to other peoples in that part of the world.

[Sava]

I think that the game should have had more Civs. But if you're going to set a limit at 16, I agree, the Iroquois shouldn't be in the game. The Turks are definitely more important and had more to do with history.

[Ribannah]

The influence of the Turks was important locally, but the Iroquois influenced the course of human civilization as a whole. Besides, if we left the Americans with just the Aztecs they would become all haughty.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Ribannah
The influence of the Turks was important locally, but the Iroquois influenced the course of human civilization as a whole. Besides, if we left the Americans with just the Aztecs they would become all haughty.

The Turks, the Ottoman Empire, influenced the Western World in a big way. Christianity would have been destroyed if the Ottomans had gotten past the Balkans. Plus, the Iroquois did nothing to affect the World as a whole. The Americans were the only nation affected by them, and other than a few sports team names, location names, and liquor sales, Native Americans as a group haven't had much influence in the US.

[Jethro83]

Here we go again

This thread just isn't getting anywhere. It should be closed IMHO. Its making no sense to me why there's a continual need to resurrect it.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Sava
The Turks, the Ottoman Empire, influenced the Western World in a big way. Christianity would have been destroyed if the Ottomans had gotten past the Balkans.

Or if the Zulus had. But they didn't either.
As history went, the Ottomans did not have all to great an influence on western Europe. They're still fun to play with, and unique enough with their emphasis on artillery.

Plus, the Iroquois did nothing to affect the World as a whole. The Americans were the only nation affected by them, and other than a few sports team names, location names, and liquor sales, Native Americans as a group haven't had much influence in the US.

I'm inclined to agree with Lord Azrael.
Sava, go read a book (for instance Morgan or Marx). Or if you want to be taught from scratch, bring a bundle of euro's, or wampum, or whatever reliable currency you have available (the dollar is rather weak at the moment ).

[Imp. Montezuma]

Originally posted by Ribannah
The influence of the Turks was important locally, but the Iroquois influenced the course of human civilization as a whole. Besides, if we left the Americans with just the Aztecs they would become all haughty.

It's true. Mediterranean (and Europa, and Asia etc. together) is very very local area. Only America is great planet. One year in America equal 30 years in Old World.

Good point of view to importance. "In Americas people walk with legs up and heads down!"

In medieval maps center of Earth was in Jerusalem. In American maps today center of Earth is in Washington, D.C.

P.S. When I drink cofee, I remember Turks and Kaffa in Ethiopia. When I smoke cigarette, I don't remember Iroquois.

[Ribannah]

I don't smoke, and I don't drink coffee either.

But when I speak before the council, I remember the Iroquois.
When I cherish the respect we girls have, I remember the Iroquois.
When I eat my corn, and realize how rich the harvest is, I remember the Iroquois.
When I take my herbal medicine, I remember the Iroquois.
When I look at my colorful outfit, I remember the Iroquois.
When I walk in the woods and listen to the birds singing, I remember the Iroquois.

But it is only when I hear the cannons, that I remember the Ottomans.

[Fresno]

The title of this thread seems somehow familiar to me...

I voted yes - they're old enough to be in Civ3...

[Imperial-Markus]

I voted for a clear NO for the following reason:
When the Europeans arrived and began to build their colonies they were only a few hundred. The Iroquois clearly overmatched them in size but they weren't able to wipe them out. So a nation which is clearly in an advantageous position and get completely destroyed by a few hundred don't deserve it to be called a civilization. The Iroquois were uncivilized and far far behind in technological matters. Therefore they don't deserve it to be handled as a civilization furthermore their specialunit suck anyway.

[spy14]

The Iroquois are only there because the mayans and the Incans are way to similar to the Aztecs, and other Native American groups such as apache and chinook are to small to include as proper civ's (same as the Iroquois then )

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Imperial-Markus
I voted for a clear NO for the following reason:
When the Europeans arrived and began to build their colonies they were only a few hundred. The Iroquois clearly overmatched them in size but they weren't able to wipe them out.

The Iroquois didn't WANT to wipe them out. They saw the enormous advantage that an alliance with the Europeans would give them over their rivals, and history proved them right. They built their empire on their trade with (first of all) the Dutch. The French chose to support their enemies, which cost them (the French) dearly.
Without the trade with the Europeans, the Iroquois would have gained ground much slower.

So a nation which is clearly in an advantageous position and get completely destroyed by a few hundred don't deserve it to be called a civilization.

The Iroquois were never destroyed. As I said above, the arrival of the Europeans made them blossom. Later, after the numbers of the colonists had grown far beyond the size of the Iroquois population, they still remained the most powerful force in North America for a long time. Finally, it was internal disagreement that made the League shrink during the American War of Independence, they were never conquered.
Today the Iroquois are still largely independent within the USA and Canadian borders, with their own laws and government.

The Iroquois were uncivilized

The main European philosophers of the 17th century and beyond disagreed with you, they thought very highly of the Iroquois democracy and way of life. The Iroquois inspired European enlightenment and specifically the French Revolution, as well as the later ideas of Marx and Engels. The US of A was modelled after their example.

and far far behind in technological matters.

Not at all. They were ahead of the Europeans in some fields (agriculture, government, social values, urban planning, medicinal drugs), behind in others (metallurgy, seafaring, banking, chemistry). That's why the contact was such a success for both sides.

[Panag]

hi ,

they have to be in , for now , even if it was only to serve the goal as a space-filler , .....

have a nic day

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by Ribannah
I don't smoke, and I don't drink coffee either.

But when I speak before the council, I remember the Iroquois.
When I cherish the respect we girls have, I remember the Iroquois.
When I eat my corn, and realize how rich the harvest is, I remember the Iroquois.
When I take my herbal medicine, I remember the Iroquois.
When I look at my colorful outfit, I remember the Iroquois.
When I walk in the woods and listen to the birds singing, I remember the Iroquois.

nice
but this can be said about many other "civs" as well, can't it?

[Gangerolf]

I voted "yes - for no reason", btw. Obviously there are several reasons, but the other option "yes - because they are americans" is wee bit stupid

[Imperial-Markus]

Well yes it sounds very nice. How peaceful and tranquil people the Iros must be. Obviously Ribannah tend to forget all the cruelty done by these "nice and friendly" guys. Killing completely innocent settler families (above all French and later on British during the Independence war), forcing the wives to be their Squaws etc.

Well if these are sings of friendly people I'd rather have not a "nice" Iro in my neighbourhood.

Markus

[Thorgal]

The influence of the Turks was important locally, but the Iroquois influenced the course of human civilization as a whole.

The Ribannah´s world, where the people walk backward and the cows fly.

[Panag]

Originally posted by thorgalaeg


The Ribannah´s world, where the people walk backward and the cows fly.

hi ,

it aint funny to say such things , .....



have a nice day

[Jethro83]

Originally posted by thorgalaeg


The Ribannah´s world, where the people walk backward and the cows fly.

Let me suggest something to you. Go and read some history. And don't make such stupid comments about people. Regardless of whether you think someone is right or wrong, that does not give any right, privelage or duty to say things like that.

Originally posted by Imperial-Markus
Well yes it sounds very nice. How peaceful and tranquil people the Iros must be. Obviously Ribannah tend to forget all the cruelty done by these "nice and friendly" guys. Killing completely innocent settler families (above all French and later on British during the Independence war), forcing the wives to be their Squaws etc.

And you can't say that kind of thing about anybody else?! How about the Nubians attacking 'innocent' Egyptians (and vice-versa), the Dorians attacking 'innocent' Greeks, the Germanic tribes attacking 'innocent' Romans. Yep, even the Anglo-Saxon tribes (ancestors of the English) were also cruel to the 'innocent' Britons, and were in turn treated cruelly by the Normans. And what about the Mongols attacking 'innocent' Chinese, Persians and Seljuk Turks? The cruelty you describe has happened everywhere in history, and to just about everyone.

Mind you, the English and French had a bit to answer for themselves in the New World.

NOW CAN WE ALL PLEASE JUST LET THIS POINTLESS RANT DIE ?!

[MarkG]

indeed