10 steps for a successful builder strategy

[Hurricane]

A builder strategy is, in fact, still possible under v1.17, but only on the lower difficulty levels (all except Emperor and Deity). I have used it successfully in two games, one on Regent and one on Monarch.

A successful builder strategy depends on having lots of cash for rush building (I never pop rush). How do you accumulate lots of cash when the popular tech-whoring strat no longer works?

1) Have maximum tax for discovery in 40 turns (90% or 100% with one scientist in a city). This gives a good steady income, but is not nearly enough.
2) Make contact with everybody. Being expansionist helps. Knowing all civs means you get full advantage of tech devaluation.
3) Head for writing as soon as possible. Establish embassies with everyone immediately. Sign ROPs with everybody - the AI will pay you very nice amounts for it. You´ll only get lump sum so remember to renew every 20 turns.
4) Found cities close the neighbors (2 tiles in between). This is needed for successfully make the neighboring cities defect.
5) Make every effort to get control over all kinds of resources. The AI still pays huge amounts for resources it needs (especially Iron).
6) Buy enemy workers always when you get the chance. Build a harbor and roads to all your neighbors as soon as possible.
7) Don´t buy techs before everyone else has it. Waiting 2 turns to be the last one to buy a tech instead of the first can easily save you 500 gold.
8) After writing, head for Monarchy. With all your gold, start rushning temples and libraries. At this stage the AI has usually no buildings in his cities, and soon the neighboring cities will start to defect to you.
9) Don´t ever declare war on anybody. This screws all your chances of getting money out of ROPs. You´ll get into a war sooner or later anyway (never forget to have a strong and up to date army).
10) Head for democracy. At this stage you can usually start to research techs, too. Sell techs to AIs who can afford to pay much for it. Always try to keep the AI poor, so that they can´t rush their own improvements.

[Arrian]

Ok, I'll chime in. Here's what I usually do:

I go for the Great Library, and my strategy revolves around getting it. There are other ways to go about it, but this is the one I like (Monarch level):

I beeline for literature, while using the Pyramids as a shield holder in my best city (probably my capitol). If I'm not industrious, I buy masonry. Anyway, I expand as rapidly as possible, building temples in my new cities, with only a minimal military. As soon as I get literature, I build libraries in my core cities (and start them in the far away ones, in order to save shields for the courthouses to come). After discovering literature, I beeline for currency. The Great Library will be finished before I discover it, and the GL will get me everything BUT construction, currency, republic and monarchy. I will switch my outlying cities to courthouses (unless, of course, they are so far out that they're not worth it).

If I am blessed with a coastal city with low corruption, I'll take a shot at the Colossus. It is a wonder that the AI often neglects, and it doesn't take too many shields to build. Having a decent coastal city early on is a matter of luck, however.

Anyway, upon getting currency, I build marketplaces everywhere. The more overall money you have, the more you can afford to spend on science. I will also gain construction and monarchy from the GL, while I research republic. Large cities build colloseums, and my capitol starts on the Hanging Gardens while my best production city (other than the cap) starts on a "palace." After getting republic, I switch gov'ts and start researching feudalism. The capitol switches from Hanging G. to Sun Tzu... then I beeline for Theology and the #2 city gets switched to either Sun Tzu or the Sistine, depending on which city will complete its wonder first (I want the Sistine done first - it's more important to me). Meanwhile, other cities are building cathedrals and aqueducts and such things. I now normally go for Engineering, and if the AI isn't breathing down my neck, Invention too, before going for Education. If I can get Leo's, fine, otherwise, no biggie. Shields will be saved, however, for Copernicus. I often discover Education myself, rather than getting it from the Library. I want the get those universities built, and I want to get to Astronomy quickly, for Copernicus. After Astronomy, it's Banking and Economics - Adam Smith's is ESSENTIAL. Banks are built just about everywhere (there are exceptions to every rule, but I pretty much build 'em in any city that can do it in under 25 turns), and Wall Street is built asap. If I feel that I have the time (and a spare city to build Bach's), I will research Music Theory. Then over to Theory of Gravity (often the AI will go up the other tech line, getting gunpowder ahead of me, and I will buy that from them). I will also often buy democracy. If the AI wants to research Free Artistry and build Shake's, more power to 'em, I'm workin' on the railroad.

If all of the above goes according to plan, I will be well situated to grab a good tech lead in the Industrial Age (basically, I get my railroads and factories online, go for ToE, which gets me to Electronics, build Hoover, and then backfill).

It tends to work well, but it requires that several things go right. An early AI attack will wreak havoc on this strategy. Also, you need contact with several civs (2 at the very least) for the GL to work properly. Hopefully, your peaceful expansion will get you some luxuries. At the very least 2 - and if that's the case, you'd better have a lot of those 2 so you can trade - preferably 3. More than 3 local luxuries is excellent. I normally do my fighting in the medieval and industrial periods. A Middle Ages golden age is great for building all those wonders and expensive improvements, not to mention finally building something resembling an army.

I find that the civs that fit best with this strategy are the Babylonians and Egyptians. I wouldn't use this with the Chinese or Zulu, for example, because it doesn't play to their strengths.

Anyway, that's how I do it.

-Arrian

p.s. I've taken to not setting my science low at the start - I leave it 50/50 for a while.

[godinex]

0. Temples.
1. Great Library
2. Republic.
3 Democracy.

[Hurricane]

I don´t think you really need the Great Library. It´s a nice bonus, but not nearly as important as getting hold over enough luxuries and resources. Not getting it is a small setback for the eraly medieval age, but no game-breaker.

[notyoueither]

Just a question. What is the highest level the various builders play at? If you don't mind, you could state it in the first line of your replies in this thread.

I play at Emperor. I can't see making a go of the builder at that level, although I do play a blend of it as the Roman civ. Make war and improvements. Rome seems good at it.

Salve

[Hurricane]

Originally posted by Hurricane
A builder strategy is, in fact, still possible under v1.17, but only on the lower difficulty levels (all except Emperor and Deity). I have used it successfully in two games, one on Regent and one on Monarch.

notyoueither: Not sure if you meant me, but I state it clearly on the second line. I will try my strategy on Emperor when I finish my current game, but I´m not sure if I can make it. Very much depends on the starting position.

[notyoueither]

Hurricane. Yes I read your post, so I know about your level.

My observations on your points.

1) At higher levels (all levels?) set science to 0 once you have made contact with 3 or more civs. You can buy for cheaper than you can research.
2) Contact is paramount. It is more valuable than tech because it makes all tech cheaper.
3) I haven't tried *renting* RoP. I'll give it a go. Nice tip if it works. I usually find the AI needs money to go into RoP in my games.
4) At higher levels the AI will build temples and other culture bulidings more quickly. You just might find some of your encroachers going over to the other side.
5) Resources go without saying. They are an integral part of the game at any level.
6) Buy workers? They'll sell? Trade links go with the importance of resources. They are vital.
7) Being the last to acquire tech, for deep discounts, is sound. Only strain yourself once you have determined it is time to attain leadership, then max the slider and don't look back. Usually good around the early Industrial age (at higher levels).
8) Republic for peace. Monarchy for war. Razing has hideous effects on a Republic.
9) Declare war on who you need to when you need to. Just don't screw the AI when you do it. If you have agreed to trade resources, do not declare war before the deal expires. You have to cancel it sometimes, it might not expire by itself at the end of 20 turns. If you declare war on an AI that you have any deals going with you are bad, bad, bad man. No deals, no bad.
10) Democracy is great, so long as you can keep your cities out of revolt due to war-weariness. Communism has it's place, but probably not in a builder strategy.

Salve

[Hurricane]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Hurricane. Yes I read your post, so I know about your level.

My observations on your points.

1) At higher levels (all levels?) set science to 0 once you have made contact with 3 or more civs. You can buy for cheaper than you can research.
2) Contact is paramount. It is more valuable than tech because it makes all tech cheaper.

Very true.

3) I haven't tried *renting* RoP. I'll give it a go. Nice tip if it works. I usually find the AI needs money to go into RoP in my games.

9) Declare war on who you need to when you need to. Just don't screw the AI when you do it. If you have agreed to trade resources, do not declare war before the deal expires. You have to cancel it sometimes, it might not expire by itself at the end of 20 turns. If you declare war on an AI that you have any deals going with you are bad, bad, bad man. No deals, no bad.

I think your reputation suffers even if you declare a war "honestly", without breaking any treaties. This might be the reason the AI won´t pay you for ROPs. Also, if the AI plans to attack you, they won´t sign ROPs. That´s why you need a relatively strong army, so that the AI instead picks easier targets.

4) At higher levels the AI will build temples and other culture bulidings more quickly. You just might find some of your encroachers going over to the other side.

True. This is what makes a builder strategy much more difficult (I won´t say impossible) on the highest difficulties.

6) Buy workers? They'll sell?

The AI sells workers for 25-30 gold (lump sum). This is cheap considering you save 1 pop point, get a maintenance-free worker and that the AI used up one pop point for a measly amount of gold (which you of course quickly get back from him by trading).

[DrFell]

I've got one good tip for builder strategies on deity level - don't use them.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by DrFell
I've got one good tip for builder strategies on deity level - don't use them.

Which was mentioned by Hurricane in his very first sentence.

As to me, I never was a pure builder. I try to avoid conquests, but that's not a dogma for me. And I accept to start wars for resources. Nevertheless Hurricanes and Arrians analysises gave me some ideas. I never tried to sell RoP's (as a matter of fact I seldom granted them anyway), now I will give it a try. Same with buying workers. Are they working like captured workers or like my own? Well, I'll see.

But why should I strive for Monarchy (step 8)? Ain't Republic much better for a builder? And having 2 periods of Anarchy on the way to Republic (with non-religious civs) can't be good, in my opinion.

[Tingkai]

I have found that if I explore, but avoid making contact during the early game, I have a better chance of expanding my empire. It seems like the minute an AI makes contact with me, they start pushing their cities towards me.

Delaying contact doesn't seem to be a problem. I can usually trade and catch up with the other Civs.

[player1]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


Which was mentioned by Hurricane in his very first sentence.

As to me, I never was a pure builder. I try to avoid conquests, but that's not a dogma for me. And I accept to start wars for resources. Nevertheless Hurricanes and Arrians analysises gave me some ideas. I never tried to sell RoP's (as a matter of fact I seldom granted them anyway), now I will give it a try. Same with buying workers. Are they working like captured workers or like my own? Well, I'll see.

But why should I strive for Monarchy (step 8)? Ain't Republic much better for a builder? And having 2 periods of Anarchy on the way to Republic (with non-religious civs) can't be good, in my opinion.

If you don't have lots of luxury resources Republic is NOT AN OPTION.


At the end it all depends form situation to situation.

[Hurricane]

You are right - Republic is the better choice for the builder. However, this is the time when I suggest you go to war (actually, try to get someone declare war on you). You will need more land than what you can get yourself, and at this stage most parts of the continent will be filled with cities. Depending on the size of the continent and the number of civs, I prefer to take out 1 or sometimes 2 rival civs to get enough "Lebensraum". That´s why I use Monarchy. And you will need to get a leader so that you can rush the FP.

By the way, I usually play Religious, so anarchy is not a big issue.

[alexman]

Originally posted by Hurricane
The AI sells workers for 25-30 gold (lump sum). This is cheap considering you save 1 pop point, get a maintenance-free worker and that the AI used up one pop point for a measly amount of gold (which you of course quickly get back from him by trading).

Keep in mind that the AI gets upset if you are using his workers, so this might not be a good builder strategy if you want to get along with him. He doesn't mind you having them as citizens in your cities though.

Also, are you sure there is no maintenance for foreign workers? I thought there was.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by alexman


Keep in mind that the AI gets upset if you are using his workers, so this might not be a good builder strategy if you want to get along with him. He doesn't mind you having them as citizens in your cities though.

Also, are you sure there is no maintenance for foreign workers? I thought there was.

The AI gets upset if you use its workers? I've never heard that before. Are you sure about that? I think foreign workers are free... captured ones for sure, but I think even buying them is kinda like a slave trade.

Re: republic vs. monarchy. Well, you do need 3 luxuries for a viable republic. If I only have two, and can't trade for any more, you're gonna need to fight. Monarchy may be the best option... though I might just stay in despotism.

-Arrian

[alexman]

Yes, it's a fact. I don't know how much of an effect it has, but keeping workers from an AI civ without joining them to a city makes that civ mad. Soren mentioned this in the Feb 15 chat here on Apolyton.

[Arrian]

Hmmm *ponders*

Well, normally if I have workers from another civ, they were taken in war, so it's no big deal if it makes them mad - they don't have long to live. But if buying a worker and using it hurts diplomatic relations, that's unfortunate, and worth considering. I always thought that buying a worker early on was a good idea, because you get a boost to your road/mine/irrigation building speed, and the AI you buy from loses a worker, for a pittance of gold. I don't have time or pop points to build workers usually until I've built 4 cities or so.

-Arrian

[Aeson]

It does make the AI think a bit less of you to have "slaves" of their nationality. I would doubt that how you aquired the worker makes any difference. It doesn't hurt that much though, it makes the AI think you are stronger (more units) and they are weaker (less units). Any change in how the AI deals with you because of reputation is offset by the change in power balance. I buy every AI worker I see throughout the game.

I once gave a small AI civ 50 of its workers back on the same turn. I didn't want to add them to my population because my culture was still relatively low. The AI became polite (from cautious), but the change in unit count led them to declare war the next turn. When I reloaded and didn't "free" their workers, they remained cautious and didn't declare war.

[Arrian]

Aeson,

That's really wierd, because I specifically recall Soren posting that workers didn't count toward the AI's calculation of "power." He said that the military advisor you see is totally different (and more simplistic) than the AI equation. Apparently, the AI does take into account the combined attack/defense values for units, plus numbers. I'll see if I can find the post. Your example may prove there is something going on that Soren hasn't considered... which I think is important.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Here's the link:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=44074

[Aeson]

I know I'm not the only one who has experienced this (1.16f). I recall at least a few posts by people who had the same thing happen in their games. I remember a thread where someone suggested this as a way to get the AI to declare war. There could be reasons other than counting workers towards unit counts though.

At the time the AI had 1 city, so I'm reasonably sure that they didn't add those workers to their city and think they were bigger than me. I had well over 100 cities and at least 200 military units. Maybe they were just holding off on conquering me so that I wouldn't torture their captives!

In any case, buying workers is still a good idea, especially early on. It slows down the AI's expansion and speeds yours up a bit. I usually check every AI in diplomacy anyways, and most of the time can get a worker for the price of a useless map and 10-20 gold. You can always add the workers to your cities if you're worried about the change in AI attitude. As long as you don't add too many of one nationality to a single city it shouldn't make much difference culturally.

[dac]

I wonder if the AI has to pay upkeep on the workers you gave back? I know you don't pay for captured workers, but you pay for those of your own nationality. If you gave him workers back of his own nationality, maybe you tanked the AIs economy and he had to go to war to welsh on some debt?

Or maybe there's that last little bug in the algorithm nobody has found yet, and workers, even though they aren't supposed to be counted, sometimes are. Wouldn't be the first time somebody fixed a bug by changing code in all 27 places it's used, only to find out that it's used in a 28th.

[Aeson]

There could very well be a "we have too many units, lets start a war to get them killed" switch in the AI.

[Hurricane]

I tried my strategy on Emperor, and, as expected, it was much harder. I finally managed to do it on a standard map, where much of the world was water. The problem with large maps is that the AI is much better than the human player to expand, and that luxuries and resources are much more scattered around. This means that you often end up with only 1 or perhaps 2 luxuries on a huge map, while you easily can get 3 on a small or standard map.

The ROP-selling strategy didn´t work, either. It seems the extra units the AI gets at the beginning makes them feel so strong that they won´t pay for ROPs. This makes it harder for you to keep up technologically. In the earlier games, I got the tech lead during the medieval ages, but in this game only during the early industrious ages.

The failed ROP-selling instead meant that I had no problem declaring war on the Romans (5 cities), which my Mounted Warriors had no problem taking out. I didn´t get any leaders, though. This meant I got the FP rather late in the game.

I am now 4 techs ahead of the other civs (researching combustion), who have been fighting each other for some time. I have a steady income of about +0 ... +100 when at 100% science. I´ll probably take out the Americans when I get tanks and then head for a space-race victory.

[alexman]

Originally posted by Hurricane
The AI sells workers for 25-30 gold (lump sum). This is cheap considering you save 1 pop point, get a maintenance-free worker and that the AI used up one pop point for a measly amount of gold (which you of course quickly get back from him by trading).

From the AI perspective, Why would he ever trade you one of his workers for 20-30 gold in the first place, especially at the beginning of the game? I think I understand how the game calculates the worker's trade cost, but I also think it's flawed.

A worker costs 10 shields and one population point. A city of size less than 6 with a plus two food surplus takes 10 turns to regenerate that population point. if we say that during those ten turns an average tile with two food, one shield, and one commerce would have been worked, that's another 10 shields and 10 commerce lost.

So the AI trades you 10 commerce and 20 shields for about 25 gold. That would have been fair enough, except it doesn't take into account the fact that after the 10 turns that it takes him to replace the population, that's still one population point less than it would have otherwise been (thus losing more production and commerce until the city can no longer grow), not to mention the fact that in 10 turns he could have made several tile improvements that would have further benefited his economy.

Considering all the ridiculous deals the AI gives you for tech and resource trading, the value it places on workers seems out of character!

[Ribannah]

Reasons why the price might be fairer than it looks:

(a) The worker may have been an idle entertainer, or the city was at maximum size
(b) The AI has trouble paying for its upkeep

Since slave workers are slow, I prefer adding them to my capital. Early on that can be quite a boost!