Detailed thoughts and ideas on the UN (pretty long)

[The Thinker]

What if other UN members had to pay taxes to cover costs of any member who was in Anarchy ?

[Panag]

hi ,

the above ;
nice idea , of course , money made this way , would be under a lot of "corruption" , like in daily life , .............

hmmm , what about troops , ?

have a nice day

[Solver]

Wonder why is this thread still getting posts?

BTW now that an expansion looks like it's on its way, I can really hope to see a better UN model there.

[Panag]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Solver
Wonder why is this thread still getting posts?

what do you mean ?

hmmmm , expand , yeah , that would be nice , but i dont think this summer

have a nice day

[loleod]

It sounds like a great idea. Instead of the UN signing a peace treaty for me though , it should be greatly encouraged. If I fail to initiate peace after getting the peace request from the UN ( Give me 2 turns to end the war) then a few things may happen. If i refuse to sign peace and my enemy refuses then both of our reputations go down, and we may possibly have embargoes signed against us. If I want to declare peace and my enemy refuses ( After the UN interjects) then the UN will vote on wheter or not to help me. They can help me by giving me gold, giving me techs, giving me weapons , or giving me their alliance in the war. the same goes if Im the bad guy , they will make a final demand after the 2 turns at which point I have to end my conflict immediatly or face all the UN members.

This might sound crazy , but give it a chance. Did you ever think about having more then one "UN" . Lets say I am friendly with 7 of the worlds civs , and the 8 I dont like start a " UN " group. I should be able to take my friends and form a group. Kind of like NATO , or even The EU, or like the US was in its earliest days. The UN itself would be all countries combined , but I want to be able to discuss things with people I choose to talk to. Take the Arab summit for instance , they had their own meeting , and at that meeting they try to affect the policies of their fellow arab states.

I should also be able to ask for peace. Lets say IRL I am France , the Romans ( Italians) are at war with Germany. This doesnt help me much they both keep on stomping on my land with their damn troops! I dont want to start a war , but i dont want the AI on my land fighting a war. I would also find that both sides will be spending all their money on weapons , so when my wine trade comes up in 20 turns they cancel. I think it would be cool if I could coerce both of them to the peace table and try to mediate the peace treaty ( If I am desperate maybe I can toss in free wine for 5 years , and some money from my own stocks ).

They also need to fix diplomacy a little. I had a war with the germans and I guess I broke a ROP , I broke it 2 turns before the war I swear. Well it is something like 2000 years later and the greeks refuse to sign one with me citing I screwed the germans at one time. Well I destroyed the germans before I even met the greeks anyway , so I dont get why he keeps on saying that the germans told him all about me. On top of that it was 2000 years ago! Plus the AI just gets pissed off at me for no reason.

[Panag]

hi ,



well in all , the AI seems to reflect daily life , lol , no , for real think about it , ......

as for the rest , the wonders should do more , but , ahem , how ,
what is it going to cost , in developing it , what about the computers we as players use , what will we need , will it slow the game down , etc , ..................

so many Q's so little A's , and last but not least ;

can it be done ????, ............

have a nice day

[Solver]

Good ideas, but there's one important point... the UN shouldn't become all that there is to the game.

Loleod, did you read the original post?

[Panag]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Solver
Good ideas, but there's one important point... the UN shouldn't become all that there is to the game.

hmmm , but that is the topic , lol , ....

no , well , i think that the point is ; wonders should do more , ......

one should be able to chose this true the editor , enable this or that , for the un , or the intel agency or an other wonder

but , can it be done ??????

have a nice day

[Solver]

What I mean is that there should be others concerns but the UN...

[Panag]

okay , i agree , but still we should not forget the UN
and of course we should look at wonders , the others that is , like the intel agency

[loleod]

Originally posted by Solver
Good ideas, but there's one important point... the UN shouldn't become all that there is to the game.

Loleod, did you read the original post?

Yes I did , I just think that there are things I would do , but I cant. I feel constrained, there is almost no communication amongst the civs. I would love to be able to have more interaction with the AI. Sometimes I do some really nasty things to the AI like wipe out its entire country , I should be punished for that if the AI I did that to was a nice peaceloving civ. It shouldnt be the whole game , but it would surely add a new twist to the game if you had more diplomatic measures. If it does become to involved for war goers then maybe it should be able to be turned off at the start of the game.

[Panag]

hi ,

well maybe the fact that we cant "talk" with the AI , is a reflection of modern life , i mean think about it , most countries dont talk , lets face it , if we (as humans) would do that more often , the world would be a better place !!!

have a nice day

[wrylachlan]

I think votes should be one vote per civ. But culture should play into it when you want to go against the wish of the council. If you have a low culture and disobey the UN other civs attitude changes badly. But if you have a higher culture there is little or no ramifications of disobeying the council. Culture here is a measure of diplomatic savy.

I just think this would be simpler then the culture formula that solver proposed.

And to offset some of the unbalancing power of having the entire UN declare war on one country, if you are a member of the UN you no longer have the option of razing captured cities as this is unhumanitarian.

And one more thing about UN wars. They would have to have a stated goal that is not total destruction of the civ. Like "Go to war with the Romans to destroy their nuclear capability (capture their uranium source)" or "Go to war with Japan to destroy their war machine (2/3 of their units)". When the goal of the war is achieved the UN automatically negotiates a peace treaty.

Another option would be capturing a city for another civ. Say Germany takes over the French city of Lyon. As a UN member with France the US marches in and attacks the now german town of Lyons. When it captures it, you get the options, "Occupy Lyons" or "Turn Lyons over to its original owner, the French".

Also the UN should look down strongly on the destruction of another civ by military means. This should throw you right off the council.

The above four suggestions would make the UN a peace organization not another weapon to be exploited by the player.

But in order to encourage players to play peacefully and in cooperation with the UN you would have to make turns at peace worth more points in the score.

[Boris Godunov]

While I'm up for ANYTHING that makes the endgame more interesting (it is a SNOOZE Firaxis), I wouldn't want it to be dominated by UN politicking either. But these ideas sound pretty cool, and would certainly add depth.

I personally think they should introduce an endgame option of globalization wherein civs begin to merge and things become more nebulous than nationalistic.

[Solver]

I just think this would be simpler then the culture formula that solver proposed.

Might be just me, but I love complexity.

While I'm up for ANYTHING that makes the endgame more interesting (it is a SNOOZE Firaxis), I wouldn't want it to be dominated by UN politicking either. But these ideas sound pretty cool, and would certainly add depth.

You can disagree with the UN, but then face the consequences.

[Panag]

hi ,


maybe the game as a whole should be more complex , ...???

have a nice day

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Solver

Quote:

I just think this would be simpler then the culture formula that solver proposed.

Might be just me, but I love complexity.

"Easy to learn, difficult to master."

That's always been what I look for in games today (and always). Make it easy to do things, but when you want to get your hands dirty and take more control over things to give yourself the advantage, you should be able to do so.

[Solver]

Yeah, not a bad phrase. But still, I love how compliciated Civ is - and not too easy to learn at all!

[HazieDaVampire]

What about ‘assist in conflict’, you think up the voting rules. Should a war be raging between two civs (UN, or non-UN, I don’t know!) you can vote to assist one of the civs. If the AI is any good its more likely to vote on war against the civ whose razed the most cities.

[Panag]

hi ,

yep , "assist" , they should work on that ;

you could send troops (give them away) to a nation , with or without signing anything , and be able to chose wheter or not you give the specific technology with it , ..........

that would rock

have a nice day

[Solver]

Yeah right, but again, it all has to be balanced somehow .

[Panag]

Originally posted by Solver
Yeah right, but again, it all has to be balanced somehow .

hi ,

now , that cant be the problem , ........if firaxis puts his hands to it , it shall work , ...

have a nice day

[Solver]

I don't think they viewed this thread.

[Panag]

hi ,


Solver , the pic ya use , maybe we should start to work like that guy , .....

no , they read the forums , when they have time !

have a nice day

[Solver]

Hehe, all so much like commenting on my avatar .

I know they read the forums, and one olf my hobbies is monitoring what exactly are they reading when they're on. Just kidding about them NOT reading >

[Solver]

Oops .

[Ijuin]

There are a lot of cool ideas here, but I would be in favor of something relatively simple that stood a chance of actually being implemented in the game. Here is my suggestion:

The United Nations Headquarters Great Wonder becomes available with the Nationalism advance (cost 600 shields). Once it is built, every other nation that has the Nationalism advance may build the U.N. Embassy Small Wonder (cost 200 shields), which grants membership. Building the Embassy will be a high priority for those civilizations eligable, so most nations will start to build theirs as soon as possible.

Advantages of owning U.N. Headquarters:

1.) The owner is Chairman of the U.N. Council until a new Chairman is elected (see below).

2.) The owner cannot be Suspended or Expelled from the U.N.

3.) The owner recieves five gold per turn membership dues from each other member. Dues trump all other expenses including maintaining a nation's armies, so they are paid unless a nation's total income is less than five gold per turn.

4.) Any nation declaring war on the owner is automatically Suspended.

Advantages of membership in the U.N.:

1.) Each member automatically gets communications and a trade connection with every other member regardless of whether there is a land/sea/air trade route connecting them--this connection is unbreakable except for suspended members.

2.) Members automatically share maps--the maps of all members are combined into a single U.N. map that is distributed to each member and updated every time a Council meeting is called. Suspended members do not receive or contribute to map updates.

3.) Each member automatically gets a free embassy with every other member if they do not already have them.

4.) Members automatically have a Mutual Passage Agreement with each other provided they are not at war with each other.

The U. N. Council:

The U.N. Council can be called at any time, by any member, but there must be at least three active members available. Suspended members are not counted as active. The same proposal with the same nations may not come before the Council more than once every ten turns (for example, if a vote on sanctions against England fails, it may not be voted on again for ten turns, but a vote for sanctions against another nation may be held the next turn). The Council may vote on ONE proposal each turn. All votes are by country except for Elect World Governor (diplomatic victory), and require a simple majority unless otherwise specified.

Advantages of holding the position of Chairman:

1.) The Chairman has the deciding vote any time there is a tie.

2.) The Chairman may veto any proposal

1.) Elect Chairman
A Chairman is elected from the incumbent plus the top two competing candidates as measured by the number of Seat votes (Seat votes equals population plus land area plus culture per turn as of the current turn). The election itself, however, is chosen on a one nation, one vote basis. In the event of a tie, the incumbent/former Chairman has the deciding vote. If the incument Chairman was dismissed because his nation was Suspended , then he cannot run in this election.

2.) Enact/Repeal Global Sanctions
All member nations must embargo a target nation (either a member or non-member). If the sanctions are against a member nation, then that nation may not vote on this decision.

3.) Declare/End World War
All member nations form an alliance against and declare war upon a target nation (either a member or a non-member). Individual member nations may enter into a separate peace agreement with the target nation, but those that do so will be suspended from the United Nations until the World War is ended either through a vote, through destruction of the targeted nation, or through all but one of the U.N. member nations entering into separate peace agreements. If the targeted nation is a member of the United Nations, then it shall not vote on this decision, and if World War is declared, it shall be suspended (see below) from the U.N. for the duration of the World War. Only one World War may be in effect at any time.

4.) Suspend Member/End Suspension
The targeted member nation is automatically Suspended for a period of 20 turns, or until the Suspension is revoked, whichever is sooner. Members who are Suspended other than through voting (i.e. because they failed to comply with an earlier U.N. decision) may also return to active participation through this proposal. The nation that holds the Chairman position may be Suspended, in which case a new Chairman is automatically elected.

Suspended nations may not vote on any Council decisions, nor are they allowed to make any proposals except to petition to end their Suspension. and they do not receive map updates, although they continue to pay their five gold per turn dues to the nation owning the U.N. Headquarters, and the automatic trade connections are maintained.

5.) Expel Member
A member nation loses its membership in the U.N. PERMANANTLY. ALL benefits and obligations of membership are ended for the targeted nation. This vote requires a 3/4 majority with at least four nations voting. The targeted nation may not vote on this decision. Expelled nations may not regain membership in the U.N.

6.) Nuclear Arms Reduction
All nations must reduce their total stockpiles of nuclear arms to the number proposed. For example, 5 would mean that each nation may have no more than 5 nuclear warheads stockpiled. Nations are given ten turns to comply, and then are Suspended automatically if they do not disband their warheads.

7.) Enact/Repeal Nuclear Nonproliferation
No member nation may construct nuclear weapons until the treaty is repealed, but may keep any stockpiled warheads. Completion of a new warhead results in automatic Suspension.

8.) Elect World Governor
At least half of all the nations in the world must be members of the U.N., and at least four nations must be sitting (not Suspended) in the election. Voting is according to Seat votes, and the candidates are the two nations that hold the most Seat votes. The candidates automatically vote for themselves, and a 2/3 majority must be had to win.

Atrocities:

The following Atrocities result in automatic Suspension for any member nation:

1.) Razing a city unless the city belongs to the target of a current World War.

2.) Use of Nuclear Weapons.

3.) Genocide (fully conquering any nation that is not the target of a current World War).

If Genocide is committed against a member nation, the conquering nation is automatically Expelled.

Finally, if, at any time, the city hosting the U.N. Headquarters is destroyed OR conquered, a new Headquarters is automatically created in the capital city of the current nation holding the Chairman position on the Council, and the Headquarters benefits go to that nation.


Comments?

[Solver]

A very good model based on what I originally though of! The point I disagree the most here probably has to be the punishment for declaring war on the UN owner, for it is, IMO, too much of an advantage to be an owner, then.

Otherwise, very fine!