Poll on wether Spain was a Civ3-able superpower.

[sargon2]

We got a discussion in the "Portuguese Civ"-thraed about the state of Spain in history and wether it is worth to be mentioned amoung the 16 Civ3-playing nations.
All those who followed it should express their opinion in this poll.
It were good if u wrote a short explanation. But that is no must dear silent readers.

All those who are interested and didn't read should do that before electing.

Choices:
1. Spain has been the greatest country on earth.
2. Its been a superpower in early modern times.
3. Spain has been a major european power not dominating europe.
4. Spain was only a colonial-power.
5. Spain what is that?

[Shaka Naldur]

Originally posted by sargon2
2. Its been a superpower in early modern times.

it hasn´t been the greatest empire of all the times, IMHO opinion at least

you can´t deny that it was a major superpower from the XVth century to the XVIIth century

[Jay Bee]

Correction, the discussion on that thread was about your ignorance on European Politics in the XVI century. Whether Spain deserves to be included among the 16 Civs of Civ3 has been debated to death in this forum. You come too late. Other than other than giving you another opportunity to show the world your silliness, this thread serves no purpose whatsoever.

[Shaka Naldur]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
Whether Spain deserves to be included among the 16 Civs of Civ3 has been debated to death in this forum. You come too late. Other than other than giving you another opportunity to show the world your silliness, this thread serves no purpose whatsoever.

you haven´t even vote

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by sargon2
We got a discussion in the "Portuguese Civ"-thraed about the state of Spain in history and wether it is worth to be mentioned amoung the 16 Civ3-playing nations.

I'm pretty sure that Civ3 is played in other countries as well

As Jay Bee says, this has been discussed before, but I see no reason why it can't be discussed again, especially by people who weren't around at the time.

My personal opinion is that while it can't be denied that Spain was once a major military power - both regionally and colonially - this alone doesn't make it 'qualify'. The competition is fierce, and the game is not just about conquest but also about advancement and culture, and the geographical spread is to be considered as well. It is a contender, but there are a few more even in Europe, and I don't see which European country would have to leave.
Spain is likely to show up in an expansion set though, if Firaxis ever makes one.

[sargon2]

The following text did I post weeks ago. I want to take it back. It relates to a cultural missunderstanding of temper that made a chain-treaction of bad words.
So from my side it's no more actual.
I leave the text for there are many posts relating to that.

Germans Spaniards(Castillianos incl.)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear visitors don't let u driven away by idiotic not being able to discuss Jay Bee. Just take part.

I think the only disqualifying himself is Jay Bee.
quotes like:"...show the world your silliness, this thread serves no purpose whatsoever." instead of argueing.
Every unpreconcepted reader must feel bad about your style, I'm giving facts and interpretation. And u instead of falsifying and argueing against it do say things like foolish, silly, idiotic.
By not argueing he tries to show that his view is so clear and undisproveable, he disguises a show of deep knowledge to oppress own ideas and questions.
Already when I started discussing. He said there were nothing to discuss. Man what are u looking in an international forum. Make your own fascistical internet and shut up.

@Ribannah: u r right, it has been discused before.
I just think it doesn't really put the issue forward unless it isn't discussed in detail. For every case is complex.
Debate has ended to me. Let's have a vote in order to finish the issue.

The Spanish and Hispanic league has already voted. Now the unpreconcepted rest, please.

And Jay Bee safe ya garbage-coments
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Dr. Nick]

Not THIS again...

[Shaka Naldur]

Originally posted by sargon2
The Spanish and Hispanic league has already voted. Now the unpreconcepted rest, please.

so non-spanish people is not going to vote for option 1-2???
you are such a bad loser

[Dauphin]

I voted for #2.

[Alephz]

The Spanish and Hispanic league has already voted. Now the unpreconcepted rest, please.

I am from unpreconcepted rest but I voted 1 becuse Spain was the most powerfull country along 16th and first half 17th.

[Dauphin]

I read #1 as being along the line of greatest of all time, not greatest at one time, but I now see how it can be read as such.

If the latter is the desired intent I would have voted #1, if the former I stick with #2.

[Spec]

Originally posted by sargon2
Dear visitors don't let u driven away by idiotic not being able to discuss Jay Bee. Just take part.

I think the only disqualifying himself is Jay Bee.
quotes like:"...show the world your silliness, this thread serves no purpose whatsoever." instead of argueing.
Every unpreconcepted reader must feel bad about your style, I'm giving facts and interpretation. And u instead of falsifying and argueing against it do say things like foolish, silly, idiotic.
By not argueing he tries to show that his view is so clear and undisproveable, he disguises a show of deep knowledge to oppress own ideas and questions.
Already when I started discussing. He said there were nothing to discuss. Man what are u looking in an international forum. Make your own fascistical internet and shut up.

I agree, and I'll say it for the X hundred time, Spain has a lot more reasons to be in Civ3 than the Americans (No I dont hate the Americans so dont anyone try to play that card), primarly because they have more than 1500 years of culture instead of 225 years and they took part in the colonization of the new world. Imo, England should take both places, Americans AND england, otherwise put Canada, Mexico, Brazil and all those Civs, they all come from the old world like the Americans.

Spec.

[Alephz]

Merde, i cant delete this!

[Alephz]

I read #1 as being along the line of greatest of all time, not greatest at one time, but I now see how it can be read as such.

If the latter is the desired intent I would have voted #1, if the former I stick with #2.

yes, of course, I think Spain was the most powerfull country on earth at that time not of all time, i think Romans or Mongols were more powerfull.

[Jay Bee]

Originally posted by Spectator
I agree, and I'll say it for the X hundred time, Spain has a lot more reasons to be in Civ3 than the Americans

You seem to have gotten the facts wrong. Sargon opened this thread to prove the unworthiness of Spain. Too bad for him that things did not come out the way he expected . Please read the other thread (Portuguese Civ) and you'll understand the reason of Sargon's childish loss of temper.

[Dauphin]

I thought ignorance of European history was just an Anglosphere trait, not a continental European one - guess I was wrong.

[Harovan]

I think he greatly misunderstood me in the other thread. I told him, that he's making an idiot of himself posting the crap he did, he responded and asked me "who's the idiot now". I laughed and suggested him to make a poll about this.

He did. This one. I think the question about the idiot is answered.

[jasev]

By the way... where's Sargon2? He hasn't posted in these threads (both portuguese and this poll) since friday.

[godinex]

Viva España, Viva Costa Rica!

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Originally posted by El Awrence
Not THIS again...

Si, THIS again...

Why the urge of certain germanic types to spend so much effort trying to make Spain out to be less important/influential that she really was? No lo comprendo.

Put a fork in it, people.

[molly bloom]

You know, I must have been reading a different, alternate earth history, according to Sargon. In the history I recall, Spain fought not only the Arabs in North Africa, the Aztecs and Incas and assorted other Amerindians in North, Central and South America, the Dutch, the English/British, the French, the Protestant powers of the anti-Catholic coalition during the Thirty Years' War, the Ottoman Turks, various inhabitants of the Philippines and scattered Pacific islands, Italian statelets, frequently many of these powers at the same time. Unified the Iberian peninsula briefly. Colonised the New World. Carried out large scale trade with Africa, Asia and the Americas and Europe. Introduced Europe to chillies, vanilla and tomatoes. Yum.

And still managed to produce such unworthy additions to European culture as Gongora, Lope de Vega, Zurbaran, Velasquez, Cervantes...

And sent several armadas against Britain (not just one). And captured the French king at Pavia. And defeated the Turkish fleets at Lepanto.

Exactly what else is Spain meant to do to qualify as a Civ III power, or any kind of power, for that matter? Hold the sun in its course?

There can be no doubt in anyone's mind, surely, that for a certain time, Spain was the pre-eminent power in Europe, with a crack military based on the tercios, financed by the silver and gold of the Americas, and with a rich Baroque culture, influencing Austria, Southern Germany and Italy, let alone the hybrid Hispano-American culture of New Spain.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by molly bloom
Exactly what else is Spain meant to do to qualify as a Civ III power, or any kind of power, for that matter?

As a power, nothing.

Same goes for eg the Mongols and the Huns, who also fought many wars against many enemies and gained a large empire.

The game, however, has more aspects, first of all technological advancement.
If you want to make a case for Spain, you should also focus on its contribution to research.

Then argue which European civilization should have been excluded, given Firaxis' choice of geographical spread, or why Europe should have even more civs (and which non-European one should have been left out).

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ribannah


As a power, nothing.

Same goes for eg the Mongols and the Huns, who also fought many wars against many enemies and gained a large empire.

The game, however, has more aspects, first of all technological advancement.

I'm well aware of the game's various aspects, thanks, which is why the exclusion of the Arabs has always baffled me. I don't believe that the Huns are comparable with either the Mongols or the Spanish- unless of course you can point out which empires the Huns overthrew, and which civilizations they influenced?
Besides which, Firaxis seem to have been a bit light with mentioning the various technological marvels of the Zulus, and yet they are included. Odd, that.

Nonetheless, in the spirit of enlightenment, and bearing in mind I don't speak or read Spanish, so if the Hispanophiles can forgive any misspelling or misquotation, I'd be happy:

Alfonso the Wise of Castile:

Alfonso X (, nicknames Alfonso the Astronomer or Alfonso the Wise) 1221 -- 1284
King of León and Castile (1252--84), born in Burgos, Spain. He captured Cadiz and Algarve from the Moors, and thus united Murcia with Castile. The founder of a Castilian national literature, he caused the first general history of Spain to be composed in Castilian, as well as a translation of the Old Testament to be made by Toledo Jews. His great code of laws (Siete Partidas) and his planetary table were of major importance. In 1282, he lost power following a rising under his son, Sancho IV.


Juan Caramuel:

Born: 23 May 1606 in Madrid, Spain
Died: 7 Sept 1682 in Milan, Italy

Juan Caramuel was educated at the University of Alcalá (near Madrid) where he received an M.A., then at the University of Salamanca. He received a doctorate in theology from Louvain in 1638 and worked all his life in the Cistercian Order.
He taught at Louvain until 1645 when he moved to Prague. While at Louvain he planned the defence of the city and published works on military engineering. He also wrote at this time on other topics such as a work in which he argued that the King of Spain to had the right to rule Portugal. Most of Caramuel's scientific work was done during the period in Louvain.

In Prague he held church appointments but in 1655 he moved to Italy where he was to spend the rest of his life. Supported by Pope Chigi he received a number of appointments as a bishop, one being in Vigevano near Milan, another being in Naples.

In a work in 1670 he expounded the general principle of numbers to base n pointing out the benefits of some other bases than 10. Caramuel proposed a new method of trisecting an angle and developed a system of logarithms to base 109 where log 1010 = 0 and log 1 = 10.

Among Caramuel's other scientific work was a system he developed to determine longitude using the position of the moon.


Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz:

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sorjuana/


That's just three for starters, restricted mostly to the field of astronomy, although of course, Spanish botanists, navigators and military engineers could also be mentioned.

I note that the game also puts great emphasis on culture. And if I miss my guess, that is something I did mention in my post, and something noone could accuse Spain of being short of.

Viva Espana, indeed....

[jasev]

I didn't want to post here, but there are too many people that are voting that Spains was "an european country not domining europe". This is true, Spain was an european country but wasn't able to conquer europe. The english and the french (and some dutch traitors ) didn't allow us Spain achieve it. But the option "Spain was a colonial power" could be true, but to say that it was only a colonial power is a joke. And the option winning, #2, is the most accurate. Of course, I'd love #1 to win, but let's be serious.

But let me quote myself; I wrote this at the "portuguese Civ" thread when this discussion started. Somebody could find it useful.

Originally posted by jasev
OK, it's time to end with this discussion.

"The Imperial Spain", by John H. Elliott, Edward Arnold Publishers (London), 1963

Translation into english (by me) from the original spanish translation

Prologue:
... The contemporary observers noticed that change. "We can see today"-wrote Macchiavelli- "Fernando, king of Aragón, today king of spain, who deserves to be considered as a new prince, because he turned from a little and weak king into the greatest monarch of the Christianity". Ferdinand's embassadors were respected and his armies feared. And in the new World, the conquerors were building on their own an empire that had to change the power balance in the old continent. During a few fabulous decades, Spain achieved to be the biggest power in the world. During that decades, Spain would be Europe's owner, would colonize overseas territories, would create a government system to administrate the biggest -and most dispersed- empire know in the world at that times, and would produce a new type of civilization that would be an unique apportation to european cultural tradition.

I know my translation is quite poor, but I think you'll understand the main parts. I hope it will be enough to convince you, Sargon2. If not... well, I will assume it's you who has a problem.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by jasev
I didn't want to post here, but there are too many people that are voting that Spains was "an european country not domining europe". This is true, Spain was an european country but wasn't able to conquer europe. The english and the french (and some dutch traitors ) didn't allow us Spain achieve it.

Well the British Empire, the largest the world has ever seen, never dominated Europe and was arguably the most powerful/influential. So I wouldn't put too much thought into the "Ha they never dominated Europe" argument.

Unless you consider all those Europeans who now speak English as being a dominating influence.

[jasev]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin

Well the British Empire, the largest the world has ever seen, never dominated Europe and was arguably the most powerful/influential. So I wouldn't put too much thought into the "Ha they never dominated Europe" argument.

Unless you consider all those Europeans who now speak English as being a dominating influence.

Well, I suppose I wasn't able to explain my opinion. What I tried to say is:
It is true Spain was an European power non-dominating Eourope. And it is true Spain was a colonial power. But the most accurate option is #2: Spain was a superpower of the early modern times.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by jasev
But the most accurate option is #2: Spain was a superpower of the early modern times.

I agree, and I also voted for #2, although the time Spain was a superpower would in Civ3 terms rather be the late medieval/early industrial age and not "modern times". This whole poll is somehow screwed, oh well .

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by molly bloom
Besides which, Firaxis seem to have been a bit light with mentioning the various technological marvels of the Zulus, and yet they are included. Odd, that.

I agree. Ethiopia or (very scientific) Mali would have been a much better choice to further populate Africa.

Nonetheless, in the spirit of enlightenment, and bearing in mind I don't speak or read Spanish, so if the Hispanophiles can forgive any misspelling or misquotation, I'd be happy: ...

That's just three for starters, restricted mostly to the field of astronomy, although of course, Spanish botanists, navigators and military engineers could also be mentioned.

Finally someone willing to make the effort. Good job, Molly!
Of course, as everyone knows, it is not possible to trisect an angle ....

Mainly though, while Spain surely has scientists and universities to be proud of, in game terms I don't see them in the same league as their competitors It would be nice to hear some inventions.
Of course Spain could be Militaristic and Expansionist, but still.
Then again, it appears that setting the science rate at zero is a winning strategy in Civ3 as it is now.

I note that the game also puts great emphasis on culture. And if I miss my guess, that is something I did mention in my post, and something noone could accuse Spain of being short of.

Indeed, culture is another important element of the game. However, in the case of Spain, it has been argued that most of all they spread Roman culture (read: religion), not their own.

That is not to diminish the greatness of Spanish writers and architects, but we're looking for something extra here.

After all, Spain or Zululand is no comparison, but Spain is unfortunate to be situated right next to France on the map.

[jasev]

Originally posted by Ribannah
Indeed, culture is another important element of the game. However, in the case of Spain, it has been argued that most of all they spread Roman culture (read: religion), not their own.

Who argued that? It's one of the biggest stupidities I've ever heard about spain.

[Jay Bee]

Jasev, if you think that the Rome commentary is one of the biggest stupidities ever written, go to the CFC page and look for her surrealistic comments about starvation as the cause for the Spanish expansion.



One must admit though that her creativity is reaching limits far beyond the imaginable. Most definitely, she makes an excellent companion to Sargon.