Poll on wether Spain was a Civ3-able superpower. - Page 3

Jay Bee · March 27, 2002, 14:13

Sargon:

It takes courage to come back here and apologize for past mistakes. Therefore it's now my turn to apologize for the deliberate harshness that impregnated some of my replies to you. In the end I think we all have learned a bit from this experience and that's what counts (well, not all of us have learned, but who really cares at this point). I hope next time we cross our paths on these boards we do it in the friendliest of all possible ways

jasev · March 27, 2002, 14:42

Yes, next time we'll meet at dawn behind the church with guns. Twenty steps.

sargon2 · March 27, 2002, 16:00

.

molly bloom · March 27, 2002, 22:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Ribannah

And the Moslims that still lived in Spain. The Gypsies didn't have a great time either, but what else in new.

Not quite; there were still Muslims in Spain ten years later:

http://users.erols.com/zenithco/16thspain.html

In reality, Isabella's zeal only prefigures later European desire for conformity of religion in the policy of cuius regio, eius religio as seen in the Peace of Augsburg:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/a/augsburgpc.asp

The English had already expelled the Jews, as had the French.

'Expulsion of 1290
On July 18, 1290, Edward I expelled the Jews from England, making England the first European country to do so. Some Jews managed to remain in England by hiding their identity and religion, but thousands of Jews sources disagree over the number — either 4,000 or 16,000) were forced to leave England. Many settled in France and Germany. This was the start of 350 years of Jewish exile from England.'

and:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewis...wsfrance1.html

I have always found it to be fascinating to see how people criticise the zeal of Isabella and Ferdinand, whilst conveniently ignoring/forgetting the earlier expulsions of France and England....

sargon2 · March 28, 2002, 05:15

Its some similar to Germany. Ok its here and in the occupied lands where from some 1930 and 1945 the biggest genocide took place. But its wrong what Daniel Goldhagen said there was always such a antisemitism in Germany.
In the beginnings of the 20th Cent. hundred thousend of jews fled from eastern europe where poromes happend to Germany, just the land where jiddish was mainly developed. And even when the German-Nazi military conquered eastern europe the communistically oppressed jews were first happy to be freed by that "culture nation" (its a special shame to have disapointed these people).
So Goldhagen is right when he says through almost all times (ex. the prussian time!) there was religiously motivated violence against jews but it was very limited on small occasions concerning only some dozens of people (bad enough). And with the middle age it decreased. Only with the new theories of social Darwinism created in England by exentrics in post WWI-desolate-Germany a racistical variant of anti-judaism the anti-semitism got rebirth. Than started one of the worst massacres in history.

But that brings me to the last point. there was more tension between majority and Jews in Germany than in France and England because they got hardly any after their exspelling.

LordBashHeart · March 28, 2002, 07:10

Quote:

yes, of course, I think Spain was the most powerfull country on earth at that time not of all time, i think Romans or Mongols were more powerfull.

From what I recall... Mongolia is the country attributed to having the record for controlling the largest amount of land ever.

They landed exploritory ships in Japan and scared those dudes, and also were at the gates of Venice. Thats beats Rome and certainly Spain from what I recall.

-LordBashHeart

Harovan · March 28, 2002, 07:35

Glad to see Sargon2 finally understood the true spirit of Apolyton. Welcome to the community!

sargon2 · March 28, 2002, 08:07

Quote:

Originally posted by LordBashHeart

From what I recall... Mongolia is the country attributed to having the record for controlling the largest amount of land ever.

They landed exploritory ships in Japan and scared those dudes, and also were at the gates of Venice. Thats beats Rome and certainly Spain from what I recall.

-LordBashHeart

A good idea. I think it is the same problem like about Spain for outsiders in this case mongolian history is not the basic issue in history lesson. So we know little about it. So my first comment had been they only got a large extension of land nothing more. But I remembsr that they developed an even for european standarts skilling cultur in China and India besides they got these caravan Oasis with their amazing architechture, and that are only the conquered and symbiotically developed. In their corland I guess they kept their natural style of life, not by unknowledge but because of beloved tradition.
And I know a Mongolian or one of the equal-statet helping nations like Tartars, Usbecs and so on could complete the list.
The idea of that basical helping nations is very important for the understanding of political development. That means they must have a highly developed art of justice to equalize that mutch interests - kinda Centralasian Union in that early times.

Alephz · March 28, 2002, 11:03

It is incredible that Firaxis have suppressed two of the biggest and more influential civilizations in history

LordBashHeart · March 28, 2002, 11:56

The two Inventions of war that Mongolia had on its side were the Yak-horn bow which was bent back against itself, giving it an increadible amount of power, as opposed to the european bow which was just bent wood.

The other was the silk vest which all of its wariors wore, allowing arrows that have hit your person to be removed without tearing additional flesh, as the silk would be drawn into the wound and not pierced. This lightwieght armour, gave them amazing dexterity as opposed to their earopean, clad in metal enemies. They also looked cooler and were available in pinstripes and striking pastels (joke).

I don't know why I am telling you all this, I just like the mongolians.

How about adding those two things to the tech tree Infogrames?

Dr. Nick · March 28, 2002, 15:11

LOVE RIBANNAH BANANA!!!

sargon2 · March 28, 2002, 15:33

Quote:

Originally posted by LordBashHeart

I don't know why I am telling you all this, I just like the mongolians.

It is because we all want to know of Civilizations. The first invention did I know but not that detailt I guess it is named transl. to Engl. the Double-Flex-Bow (or was it Double-Reflex-Bow I don't know exactly)
But the second invention I didn't know. But it is nowadays known that threads of some insects of course spiders and now I know of worms is very strong mutch stronger than the same weight and mass of steel. Now we , they even knew it several hundred years ago. And that gave a base of their military dominance where ever they reached to.
It is really a blunder to have left out this Civ.

It is really hard to limit on 16 Civs. There are 6000 years of translocalhistory and until modern times there were at least 4 mainly independent worldregions that got all their dominating accelerating cultures and Civs. 16 will never be enough.

I already mentioned this I guess all nations, ex. the naturall nations, relate themselves to 1, 2 ore more successful Civs of history. Otherwise they wouldn't exist anymore today.

U can draw a line of development for every Nation that got its highlights and valleys. I mentioned Pakistan but it is really almost every country of today.

So that should be given in a patch or expansionpack. All nations or a legal nationmaker(not only the editor) for your own and your enemy Civs should be given.

I would of course mainly play the Assyrians but I would also like to play the Celts and Coreans and every time an other one.

sargon2 · March 28, 2002, 16:24

I have opened a new thread for this theme belongs to a bigger issue:

I liked reading on Mongolians and that new infos I guess that there are many other infos on other underestimated Civs, especially the less in europe and america known ones.

To enjoy that infos and collecting systematically I have opened this new thread.
I quoted the mongolian Infos as idealistic treatment of the issue.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=46003

siredgar · April 6, 2002, 15:52

Ay, caramba! Not this again!

Spain should have been included in the top 16 civs, but it wasn't. Case closed.

Beren · April 7, 2002, 04:40

Quote:

Originally posted by siredgar
Ay, caramba! Not this again!

Spain should have been included in the top 16 civs, but it wasn't. Case closed.

The case was closed, until you choose to reply and bring this back to the top again.

siredgar · April 13, 2002, 04:42

Just for that comment, I'm going to bump it back up again. Espana! =P

Denday · April 24, 2002, 20:02

2. Its been a superpower in early modern times.

Even that spain isn't great now but it once was very important and in no means is a country to forget.

Ribannah · April 24, 2002, 20:53

Quote:

Originally posted by El Awrence

LOVE RIBANNAH BANANA!!!

With so much love I'm almost inclined to vote for Spain in the third batch of 16!

Oerdin · April 24, 2002, 22:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Ribannah
Mainly though, while Spain surely has scientists and universities to be proud of, in game terms I don't see them in the same league as their competitors It would be nice to hear some inventions.

You are knocking Spain after promoting the scientific and cultural achievements of the Iroquios?! Now if that isn't what I call a double standard...

Oerdin · April 24, 2002, 22:42

Quote:

Originally posted by LordBashHeart
From what I recall... Mongolia is the country attributed to having the record for controlling the largest amount of land ever.

They landed exploritory ships in Japan and scared those dudes, and also were at the gates of Venice. Thats beats Rome and certainly Spain from what I recall.

-LordBashHeart

The Mongol empire was the largest contigious empire ever, however, in terms of total square milage the British Empire was larger.

jasev · April 25, 2002, 02:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Ribannah

With so much love I'm almost inclined to vote for Spain in the third batch of 16!

Really?

Jay Bee · April 25, 2002, 02:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Oerdin
The Mongol empire was the largest contigious empire ever, however, in terms of total square milage the British Empire was larger.

What Oerdin says is absolutely correct but... guess what? In total square kilometers, the Spanish Empire was also larger.

Jasev, some people go the forest and only see wood

Dauphin · April 25, 2002, 13:10

I wouldn't rate the land area occupied as the best measure of a empires stature. I think population ruled, economic output, military acheivements (etc.) are more revealing.

Based on land area alone Canada seems to be a greater empire today, than the USA or the EU.

siredgar · April 29, 2002, 22:57

Yeah, most of that Mongol "territory" was frozen tundra. Land that is not very useful in Civ3 either.