New PBEM game

[Scouse Gits]

Two Scouse Gits seek takers for a new PBEM game - any start / rules considered. Please post below ...
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The SGs thoroughly lubricated on a Friday night

[DrSpike]

I would be up for a quick (relatively few players) 1x1x no AI game.

[DaveV]

I'm interested. First suggestion: no city bribe. The Rome game is a perfect example: there's not much point in building anything except diplos and caravans (unless, of course, you can't establish any profitable trade routes ).

I'd strongly recommend a scenario or accelerated start. I'd hate to have to spend weeks waiting for my city to produce its first warrior. Wonders are a potential problem; again, a scenario could address this problem by distributing the wonders fairly at the start of the game. I think some people were working on scenarios explicitly intended for multiplay, but I'd prefer not to have lots of new units, altered terrain values, etc. I liked the reveal map option in the Rome scenario; it removes the urge to use closest city tricks, clicking on black squares, and other stunts which I'd hate to think people were using against me.

Another possiblity: a standard random start, but start everyone with 5-10 settlers, so the game gets off the ground more quickly.

A final thought: no huts. Finding a fast unit in a hut early on can let you find more huts, and the game can be over early. I hate early rushes.

[Scouse Gits]

Having never played anything but 1x1x - that certainly suits me - I had looked at the 'Samurai' scenario, but that has a big AI and changed units - I agree with DaveV having now played city bribe with human players - it really is a bit of a nono.
Does accelerated start work with multiplayer games? That might be an option.

I would prefer Deity - again not played anything else for a long time.

[DrSpike]

1) Any difficulty is fine.

2) I'm not too keen on playing a scenario.

3) The reason I said a relatively quick game was that PBEM can take forever and I can't guarantee my time too far into the future. (I know, I know, how dare I let real life interfere with my civing ) Hence I like DaveV's idea of starting with multiple settlers. I have played something similar with SMAC to speed up the tedious opening and it works ok, even if it does change the dynamics slightly. Another possibility as you're fellow brits is to start the game in one or two MP TCP/IP sessions and see how it goes. We can switch to PBEM when necessary. This would save a month or two of tedium. Actually you could help me out by indicating now roughly how long your PBEM's usually take.

4) I thought everyone played with no bribing on.

[Deity Dude]

I'd be interested, if you still have room.

1x1x deity sounds good as well as no huts and no city bribe. - I've never done a PBEM game so I'm not sure how the mechanics of the actual game play work but I would love to learn. If u decide to start with tcp/ip mode then switch - please keep in mind I am in the Eastern Time Zone USA - so we'd probably have to do that on a weekend.

[DrSpike]

I just noticed DaveV is in the US as well. For some reason I thought he was a brit (sorry to get your hopes up Dave ). I would be fine with playing weekends. However SG haven't replied yet, and it's their thread and they suggested PBEM. They may not wish to play in real time.

[-Jrabbit]

What the heck is PBEM ? -- and too lazy to research it.

All I have so far is that it's *not* TCP/IP.
and apparently takes a long time.

OK, this is a guess -- Play By E Mail ? Is that it?
omigawd that sounds slow.
But not so vicious re phone bills.

I'm willing to try most anything, but with vacation, family, business travel etc, I would need to know the boundaries before committing.

[DrSpike]

Turn based MP gaming is awesome......but bloody annoying. PBEM (your guess was correct) is slow, but you don't wait for others to move, or have to arrange times for everyone to play. Also you don't have to worry about disconnects or phone bills if you use a 56K modem.

Personally I prefer real time, but it tricky to find European players, or players in other time zones that play at weird times.

[DaveV]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Does accelerated start work with multiplayer games? That might be an option.

Accelerated start can produce wildly uneven starting strengths, and you are likely to spend your first few centuries recovering from the damage the AI has done to your civ. I'd be willing to play an accelerated start, though, because power tends to balance out in a multiplayer game - most players will put their own agenda on hold to keep someone else from dominating .

Suggested settings: deity 1x1x, no communication between civs (prevents a host of abuses at the expense of disallowing gifting of money and units; of course, units can still be given away with enough creativity ), Kengel's civfix program may be used to keep from building 200-shield temples when someone aces you out of a wonder.

Jrabbit and Deity Dude - PBEM is indeed very slow moving, but can be strangely compelling. If you can find a good group and schedule properly, you can play a turn a day. I'm in a couple games that have gone on for over a year and are not close to any kind of conclusion. As DrSpike implied, the game tends to go more slowly as you add more players. I'd vote for a minimum of four players, though, since that number presents some interesting diplomatic dynamics.

[Scouse Gits]

A real-time start at the weekend or at some bizarre time is not impossible with notice, but like many of you I have family and other RL commitments - I can speak for both of us (SGs) when I say we are MP virgins - so you would have to bear with us - always assuming that our versions are fully compatible - this (obviously) has never been battle tested - although patched to specification our underlying Civ 2 MP is the 'Ultimate' variant found only in the UK so there might be problems - none detected thus far in on-going PBEM or succession games so I might be worried about nothing....

[-Jrabbit]

So let me get this straight...

This is turn based, so turn position is based on color chosen, right? Then (it would appear) you need to start it as a hotseat game. First player takes his turn and when the prompt for the next one comes up, he saves, zips, and emails it along?

That player unzips, plays a turn, saves, and passes it on.
Then -- etc. ad nauseum.

Is that about it?

I'd like to give it a try, but have some business and personal travel that would interrupt. (I'm travelling 3/22-31 and for at least 2 weeks in July.) So if that's uncool, I guess I'll have to wait.

Preferences -- deity, raging, no bribing cities (assuming no AI civs). Don't see anything wrong with huts.

Diplomacy seems like the odd duck here. How do you trade, ally, etc.? Or is that just a nicety dispensed with?

Tell me more...

[Chris 62]

Are all of you sure what PBEM is?

It sure doesn't seem so, from some of your answers.

It means playing a multi-player game by e-mail, you play your turn, then mail the save to the next guy, who plays, and so on.

You can password protect your civ to prevent tampering (a determined cheat can get passed this).

Ay the end of your turn, while the "end player turn" is blinking, hit Ctrl+n. This ends all movement of your units ( the AI will move your units, like those you fortified, in the next player's turn, whether you like it or not if you don't).

Then you save, and stop playing, NEVER hit "end player turn".

Mail the save (it will be a .NET save) to the next player and so on.

A standard civ game is 400+ turns.
To give you an idea how long it takes, I'm playing in several that are at about 70 turns or so in, that where started a year ago, so this is long term.

You all MUST have the same civ version, and it must be MP compatible, with all patches, or it won't work.
We often agree to ignore diplos/spys, as they unblance the game, and having an AI civ is no big deal, it's just another obsticle.

The beauty of these is you can play when you have time, and you can go on-line to negociate, otherwise the AI will do it for you (a bad thing).
It might be wise to agree on "house rules" about tech trading, as well as demanding tribute(we don't allow it, it is considered an act of war).

The micropose scenarios often have serious playbalence problems, some also have tech problems.

I hope this helps.

[Scouse Gits]

So to clarify:

Players

1. SG[1] -- confirmed
2. SG(2) -- confirmed
3. DaveV -- confirmed
4. DrSpike -- scratched -- deity -- confirmed
5. -Jrabbit -- confirmed
6. Deity Dude -- confirmed

Though I'm not sure all of those are up ... looks like we are go!
Agreed

1. Deity
2. 1x1x

Can we refine this now ...

[DrSpike]

Sorry SG, don't think I can commit to this game, so you'll have to count me out. Since you are in the UK and also relatively new to MP I'd love to play you in real time if there is a time you have free. My e-mail is spalmer@mfindex.co.uk

[Deity Dude]

I confirm that I want to play but like i said i might need a walk thru on mechanics, not that I don't understand the concept, I just think that there should be a step by step written procedure for saving and file transfer.




Chris wrote this:

At the end of your turn, while the "end player turn" is blinking, hit Ctrl+n. This ends all movement of your units (the AI will move your units, like those you fortified, in the next player's turn, whether you like it or not if you don't).

Then you save, and stop playing, NEVER hit "end player turn".

Mail the save (it will be a .NET save) to the next player and so on




Does everyone agree this is the procedure (sounds good to me but I never played)



As for settings: 1x1x deity sounds good but I would like to ensure somewhat even starts.

I think a tcp/ip start is a good idea just so we dont spend a month hitting enter and transfering the file.

Anyways that my 2 cents.

[deity]

I'll give it a go...

[Scouse Gits]

Welcome deity - following dietitian should your sig not be DEITITIANS

Yes Deity Dude -- from my vast (two partially played games) experience Chris had it right - the Ctrl-n is VERY important - the AI doesn't play at deity and so frequently destroys martial law just for the fun of it...

Everyone - have updated the summar post - please check in if you are in and can we have some firming up on the start and other rules ...

[deity]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Welcome deity - following dietitian should your sig not be DEITITIANS
...

DEITIAN, pronounced: DAY-EE-SHAN...

LOL

Thanks for welcome.

BTW, I've played a PBEM and Ctrl-n does not always guarantee no inteference from the AI. I've had build orders change.

[Scouse Gits]

Yep - we just had a dose of that on our Rome PBEM - but kengel has written a little utility to sort it out - so hopefully that will not be a problem in the future....

[DaveV]

Confirming my reservation. Do you need a credit card number now?

I'll repeat my earlier suggestions on starting parameters, just for completeness: no huts, accelerated start, no communication between civs. It would be good for everyone to specify their preferred playing times so we can assign colors to ensure the minimum delay between turns. My preferred time is 11:00 - 13:00 GMT, second choice 17:00-18:00 GMT (6:00-8:00 and 12:00-13:00 USA Eastern time).

A word on why I like the "no contact between civs" scenario option: it creates an "every man for himself" atmosphere, and deeper diplomacy (IMHO, of course). I've also seen problems in other games where a representative government will revolt into anarchy while under AI control. Example: I land a musketeer next to a Zulu city. The Zulus contact me to offer a peace treaty; I refuse. Zulus (under AI control, since it's my turn) do an AI insta-revolt from Republic to anarchy.

As to general rules on cheats and exploits, I'm happy with RAH rules (except 1x1x instead of 2x1x).

[Deity Dude]

Acclerated or tcp/ip start? I hear that acclerated starts can lead to even more uneven starts. I would prefer to have my turn occur between 8 - 10pm est.

One Quick question. What happens when someone is without computer for an extended period of time (i.e. vacation, hospital etc.)? Does the game get halted until the absentee person comes back.

[deity]

They don't work.

WE must have an online session to get to 1000BC at least.

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by DaveV
Confirming my reservation. Do you need a credit card number now?

No thanks Dave - already got that - now I'm interested in those check digits printed on the signature strip ...

RAH rules (1x1x) works for me.

Given at least two tyros, how long an on-line session will be needed?

-Jrabbit is on vacation - so we either scratch him or await his return

SG(2) and I are considering playing as a single entity - this would depend upon numbers of course.

[Scouse Gits]

Just realised - I've never played on a Tiny Rocks world - sounds a tad tiresome if not bloody impossible at 1x production -- can we play upon a somewhat larger world please?

[Deity Dude]

I agree. Other non- RAH's rules I would like to propose include the no hut idea - as this reduces the amount of luck. I would also like to see no barbs, on raging hordes it seems like they usually keep coming from the same spots over and over which again introduces an element of uneveness. No diplomacy seems a must from what Dave said. I like unit and city bribe but can go both ways. I'd also like to see no food caravans and no ship chaining but am open to what the majority wants to do.

[Scouse Gits]

No huts
No computer diplomacy
Barbs at Restless tribes
No city bribe - but unit bribe permitted
Medium world
Ship chaining
Miining before city build
Preworked Settlers/Engineers
......

Does this sound OK??????????

When can we start?

_________________
The SGs - well p*ssed

[Scouse Gits]

bump

[DaveV]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
No huts
No computer diplomacy
Barbs at Restless tribes
No city bribe - but unit bribe permitted
Medium world
Ship chaining
Miining before city build
Preworked Settlers/Engineers

Sounds great to me. An online start session is fairest, but I expect scheduling to be problematic, with something like a 12 hour spread in timezones. Best times for me would be early morning (4:30-7:00 EST, 9:30-12:00 GMT), lunch time (12:00-13:00 EST, 17:00-18:00 GMT), or late evening (21:00-0:00 EST, 2:00-5:00 GMT)

[-Jrabbit]

Ten days without a computer. Wow! I haven't done that in several years. Weird...

I've only had time for a quick thread scan (am at work, which will now be commensurately intense to create a sense of cosmic balance with my very enjoyable time away), but it appears the game is afoot.

A couple Qs...

1. Saw a note re necessity of all having identical versions. This is a concern for me, as I'm a Mac user (MGE with latest patch, version 1.1.1). I do, however, successfully play MP in TCP/IP vs. PC users.

2. Control-N ?? Can anyone translate that to Mac world?

3. On rules, can someone explain what "no computer diplomacy" means?

4. A TCP/IP start sounds like a great way to blow through the early and very boring bits. My availability is, unfortunately, not very Euro-friendly. Monday-Friday evenings (7pm onward CST) is the middle of the night over there. Weekends are more open.

5. Sounds like (with multiple tyros) there should be a reference document posted, and perhaps a test game (play a turn or 2, Ctl-N/save, email) sent around to make sure there's no Civvus interruptus.

6. I really like huts... (but -- whatever)

If any of this sounds problematic, feel free to move on without me. Your waiting for a response while I was away is much appreciated, and I don't want to delay things if my presence will create technical issues.

Thanx for keeping this opportunity open to me, SGs.