it's decided: civ3 will have customized units

February 1, 2001, 20:30

according to "twin galaxies", after talking with Kelley Gilmore, Firaxis' Communications Manager
http://www.twingalaxies.com/cgi-perl...civ3_update.pl

quote:

Speaking of units, probably the best news yet revealed is that we will be able to design our own! And I don't mean in mod packs, though that is being supported even more than under Civ II. I mean as in the ability to strap weapons of your choice to a tank chassis, or infantry unit ala SMAC. Judging from the unit images, Civ III will have many more unit templates than SMAC. Presumably it will also include a similar upgrade feature, spelling the end of the battleship-sunk-by-phalanx scenario

February 1, 2001, 20:33

btw, i fail to see how the "battleship-sunk-by-phalanx" issue has anything to do with units being customizable or not...

down th' pub · February 1, 2001, 20:41

Great feature to include, one of the best from SMAC.

Puzzled me too. But we do have ranged weaponry too, so the battleship can bombard and not take any chances with that pesky phalanx!

EnochF · February 1, 2001, 20:45

Great. Well, we'll see how they manage to avoid dumb combinations like the "Submarine Archer," the "Internal Combustion Phalanx," and the "MiG Fighter with a Pike."

Imran Siddiqui · February 1, 2001, 21:48

Are you saying a MIG with a pike is silly?

Nemo · February 1, 2001, 22:21

in SMAC the parts to add to a unit were fictional (somewhat) and were sometimes time consuming to build what you wanted. but i think with civ it'll will (should) be all units/armor/etc. we have heard of and understand the reprocusions for alot better, so i wont have to constantly be wasting time looking up armor specs, or range combat specs, just to build a freaking unit. i didnt like it in smac, but it should be cool in civ (provided it stays with the historical/realistic approach for the most part.

Jon Miller · February 1, 2001, 22:32

MarkG I think he was refering to the upgradability or maybe it was just bad grammer on his part and he had saked the question and got it answered (and just communicated poorly)

this could be done very cool

Jon Miller

Transcend · February 1, 2001, 23:08

I hope they improve the interface of the unit workshop though. Scrolling 60 units with single mouse click is really a pain. Otherwise, I'm happy that they are going to implement this nice feature.

tniem · February 1, 2001, 23:24

Sounds good. Getting harder to wait for the game to be released.

But could someone please explain to me what he meant with this:

quote:

Will we see the simplified economic model and landscape bonuses from SMAC? Or will we keep the buffalos, corn, gold, and whales? I'm not sure which one I'm hoping for, but I'd have to guess we'll be getting the Civ II model with many types of bonuses, but the SMAC display with just numbers instead of many tiny icons.

Too many 'but's in one sentence make it hard to follow IMO.

February 1, 2001, 23:45

Not to worry you probably will not be able to build some items. However if you can build some items, and somebody wants to have fun and build them why not. The game sounds like it is going to be lots of fun. A lot of people have been asking for a lot of new things. If you remember and played Civ 1, you will remember that it was a very new game and a lot of fun to play. When Civ ll came out it was a lot better than Civ 1, and I believe when civilization 3 arrived it will be like No. 2 it will be a lot better and most people will be very happy with it.

------------------

Theben · February 2, 2001, 00:20

quote:

Originally posted by EnochF on 02-01-2001 07:45 PM
Great. Well, we'll see how they manage to avoid dumb combinations like the "Submarine Archer," the "Internal Combustion Phalanx," and the "MiG Fighter with a Pike."

Well, if they include limits based on the chassis, like a min-max att/def/move, you won't have to worry about that (although this too should be customizable from a file for scenarios).

It sounds like they intend to use the "unit workshop" from SMAC, including the ability to upgrade your units in the field by spending some cash (the "similar upgrade feature"). Just one thing: let players be able to "retire" ALL units in the workshop! I HATED not being able to get rid of those ancient early units of SMAC!

btw, I thought the "battleship sunk by phalanx" went out with civ1. OR did CtP re-introduce that feature?

tniem:

Sounds like they plan to use the various "Terrain1" landscape images, but instead of having 6 bushels, 2 shields, & 3 trade arrows on the city square you'll have 1 BIG bushel with a 6 in it, a shield w/ a "2", etc.

yin26 · February 2, 2001, 00:32

quote:

I hope they improve the interface of the unit workshop though. Scrolling 60 units with single mouse click is really a pain. Otherwise, I'm happy that they are going to implement this nice feature.

Yes, my worry exactly. Also, PLEASE MAKE THE UNITS DISTINGUISHABLE according to whatever little tinkering we make!

EnochF · February 2, 2001, 01:29

quote:

I thought the "battleship sunk by phalanx" went out with civ1.

That's sarcasm... right?
[This message has been edited by EnochF (edited February 02, 2001).]

Imran Siddiqui · February 2, 2001, 03:38

quote:

That's sarcasm... right?

Not when you talk about Sid games... Maybe with Crap to Play, but not any of Sid's games after Civ2.

bagdar · February 2, 2001, 08:35

It certainly is not clear what twin galaxies is saying... The Civ website does mention customisability but not in the way of a unit workshop, as we all know for such a long time. There could be a misunderstanding here. Let's be cautious. Or, the Firaxis site could clarify this issue.

Yog-Sothoth · February 2, 2001, 08:36

I didn't like the unit workshop much in SMAC, but that was because of the units were hard to distinguish and they looked utterly stupid. Didn't care much the interface either.

But with more easily recognizable historical units and a better interface I think it will be great. I have no doubt it will be easy to distinguish different chassis from one another, but I'm kind of wondering how they will do it between different versions on the same chassis. I don't want different "main" colors on my unit to do this, it would just look a stupid with a bright red tank. Hopefully there will be an easy and fast way of getting additional unit information.

Grumbold · February 2, 2001, 11:39

Purely speculative, but I would hope that certain unit upgrades (spear, bow, crossbow, musket etc) would disappear from the picklist as new techs are found or, even better, when you marked as obsolete all the unit types you had built that used them.

In terms of distinguishing between units, weapons and armour for footsoldiers should be obvious to spot. Modern infantry could have differing camo patterns if nothing better springs to mind. Telling the difference between modern smallarms could be trickier, but then I don't see that as a problem. Cavalry can have visible weapons and armour and change horse colour if there is a movement upgrade. Tanks and artillery can get bigger and more modern looking chassis and larger main guns. It isn't that difficult, really. I'm sure it will become second nature to identify them.

Taliseian · February 2, 2001, 14:17

Unit Customization ala SMAC sounds good in theory....I just hope in practice it is alot more streamlined.

The "retire" function is a must as well.

And if I ever see a Phalanx take out a Battleship in CivIII....I may just have to shoot myself.

Taliseian

tniem · February 2, 2001, 16:23

EDITED: Double Post.
[This message has been edited by tniem (edited February 02, 2001).]

tniem · February 2, 2001, 16:25

quote:

Originally posted by bagdar on 02-02-2001 07:35 AM
It certainly is not clear what twin galaxies is saying... The Civ website does mention customisability but not in the way of a unit workshop, as we all know for such a long time. There could be a misunderstanding here. Let's be cautious. Or, the Firaxis site could clarify this issue.

I would have to agree with badgar on this. IMHO I found it almost impossible to follow half of what twin galaxies was trying to say. Hopefully Firaxis will address these issues in their next "Ask the Team" section which of course will be coming in the next couple of days.

Dan Magaha FIRAXIS · February 2, 2001, 19:08

Just a quick note, as I didn't catch this until this afternoon.

First off, the author of that article on Twin Galaxies was directed to check the website for more information about the game, and he apparently read the Ask the Civ Team section, specifically the question about players being able to create custom units.

He apparently interpreted that answer to mean that we would be including a design-workshop type system in Civ III.

We will *not* be using a design workshop, nor will there be any type of "mix and match" unit designer.

What we said was that there will be significant tools available for mod creators and everyday users alike to create their own units and import them into the game. While the design workshop was an interesting feature of SMAC, its design constraints are wholly inappropriate for a game that covers as much ground as CivIII.

We have sent him an email correcting him and apologize for any confusion that this has caused. As we said in our email to him, our main concern with custom units is to allow maximum flexibility for mod and scenario authors and those of you who've labored on SMAC mods or scenarios know how limiting the design workshop can be. We're aiming for at least the level of customizability that Civ II offers, and then some.

Thanks,

Dan
Firaxis Games, Inc.

[This message has been edited by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS (edited February 02, 2001).]

yin26 · February 2, 2001, 19:58

LOL! Thanks, Dan. I sense one of Markos' famous "Quotes from Firaxis" is coming up.

Jon Miller · February 2, 2001, 20:35

Woohoo

(yes I know I celebrated for both results (the fake and the actual) but that is because I trust that Firaxis will make that part good and I like both ways of doing it (and I agree with Dan that Civ could not be done the same as SMAC, even though I do think that there could be still a good way for people to design their armies (like 5000 light spear men, 1000 swords men and 2000 bow men) which is why I said it could be cool))

Also note, I think Firaxis would make a good starcraft unique civ likee game, I just think they could do better

Jon Miller

Harel · February 2, 2001, 20:40

Well, people, let's think about it this way... Dan could have catched this debate after 300 posts and 4 flame wars, ten fully detailed models on how do it properly, 28 different suggestions for Chassise, 47 different weapon types, and about a hundred or so different rules and regulations.

Let's say a prayer that it's only been 25 posts, yeah?

airdrik · February 3, 2001, 01:06

How about a mixture of the two (if it is not too late to implement it). Use the unit workshop for certain things like infantry, cavalry and tanks, but artillary is kind of pointless (at least in my mind) to try and put a chassis on (you would end up with a catapult whose only option is to use gunpowder instead of rocks, then a cannon with two options: to upgrade the gun and to add balistics).

The navy is something else since each unit represented in civ 2 is it's own chassis, practically. (you can't really add a compass to a trimeme and call it a frigate, or add a gun to a cruiser and call it a battleship, or add a platform to a transport and call it a carrier).

Theben · February 3, 2001, 01:11

quote:

Originally posted by Harel on 02-02-2001 07:40 PM
Well, people, let's think about it this way... Dan could have catched this debate after 300 posts and 4 flame wars, ten fully detailed models on how do it properly, 28 different suggestions for Chassise, 47 different weapon types, and about a hundred or so different rules and regulations.

Let's say a prayer that it's only been 25 posts, yeah?

Apparently you missed the part in the Lists and other "300 posts and 4 flame wars, ten fully detailed models on how do it properly, 28 different suggestions for Chassise, 47 different weapon types, and about a hundred or so different rules and regulations" on this forum over the last year and a half.

Well as least we finally have an answer. I thought it might be interesting to see how a unit workshop could fit into civ3, but perhaps it's just as well. It wasn't that important to have, IMHO.

Grumbold · February 3, 2001, 01:14

I agree about the navy, it is a tricky one since ships through the ages have been very distinctive visually. I can see a variety of gun chassis though if you had to trade off gun power against mobility, creating fixed emplacements, rail guns, siege guns and field artillery. It does mean a large number of distinct graphics though unlike the SMAC approach of keeping the same one largely unchanged from start to finish.

Roman · February 3, 2001, 07:45

I for one am very pleased there will be no unit workshop in Civ 3. As Dan said, it fits into SMAC but would not be appropriate for Civ 3.

raingoon · February 3, 2001, 15:00

Yeah, I was kinda disturbed at the thought of it being in Civ 3. As I've said elsewhere -- Thank God and Greyhound she gone.