And the Helicopters?

[godinex]

I´m a fan of the Helo`s ... why the hell We can´t load it in a carrier?

[Ghengis Brom]

I've always like helo's as well. I also think it's pretty stupid that you can't put them on an carrier. Especially when you consider it's a lot easier landing a helicopter on the deck of a carrier then landing a plane on one.

[Capt Dizle]

The guiding design principle chosen by Firaxis for Civ3 is "to make Civ3 the best SP gaming experience possible" which is being interpreted as making the AI as competitive as possible.

To accomplish this the designers are trying to keep the game mechanics simple. This makes the AI more effective.

Since the AI hasn't been programmed to load helos on carriers and use them properly the human player doesn't have that option.

I don't agree with it but there it is.


The effect on multiplayer is obvious and disturbing.

[ACooper]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
...
Since the AI hasn't been programmed to load helos on carriers and use them properly the human player doesn't have that option.

....

How the hell do you know that? It's pure wild ass guessing on your part.

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by godinex
I´m a fan of the Helo`s ... why the hell We can´t load it in a carrier?

That's too bad.................

[Spec]

I think Helicopters suck. I never use them. Well.......I only tried them once though. Maybe I should try again. Are they really that useful?

Spec.

[godinex]

Uffff very useful, especially in hard terrain, or in a invasion combined with marines... the problem are the no-load option and the limited carrier capac.

[godinex]

You have a city in a very aparted island. You dont have airport and a ship will take 12 turns to arrive. Hoe do you brong troops to here? A/ Re base a Helo with paratroopers.

[Carver]

Helo's need to be able to operate off a carrier, the prohibition is ridiculous. Sending in paratroopers to raze a lightly guarded enemy city would be great fun.

It's pure wild ass guessing on your part.

ACooper, it's not wild guessing. The function isn't there and the AI is not programmed to do functions that are not available. Jimmytrick reasonably concluded that FIRAXIS was not confident that the AI would use helos on carriers effectively (as they don't use marines effectively either) so they didn't include the function. That may not be proof positive, but it is not "wild ass guessing".

[Solver]

I would like to hear an example of how to use Helicopters well. IMO, by the time they are available, everyone fortifies with Infantry, so generally you need Tanks, and Helicopters can't take those. If they could take Mechanical units, they would be real powerful, but as it is?

[godinex]

No You Can´t, But if a city have barraks is not a problem.
The usual strategy is to maintain a 10 or 12 foot soldiers loaded in a Helo, they can be quickly delivered by a single rebase and can attack in the same turn or be upgraded. They are a fast response force.

[Capt Dizle]

Its not much of a guess when laid on the backdrop of the Firaxis patch history. We discovered the lumberjack strat, that was patched out, we discovered the palace bounced, that was patched, whip abuse, patched, we learned to exploit tech brokering, Firaxis reworked that so that the AI trades excessively with itself.

The major changes not related to bug fixes have focused on propping up the AI. Consistant with original game design.

Do I have to list all the things that were cut from Civ2 (and SMAC for that matter) to convince you? Its been done ad infinitum.

[Carver]

Originally posted by Solver
generally you need Tanks, and Helicopters can't take those. If they could take Mechanical units, they would be real powerful, but as it is?

Maybe there should be a new unit, the jet transport. America's transports, C-5, C-17, C-141, can carry armor, land on an unprepared airstrip and return home. If we had this, with decent range, that would be a nice option to strike deep into enemy territory.

[Jack_www]

What I have done with helicopters is make them able to transport any kind of unit. Now I can use them to transport tanks, mech infi., radar artillery to any city of mind and use them in the same turn. I find that this is very usefull and you dont have to keep alot of you units in one spot since you can deploy them even to cities oversees in an instant. They are also usefull in transporting defensive units to lands that you conquered overseas, since building the units in those cities would take a long time, and transport by sea would be quicker but would take a long time still, helicopters can do it in one turn any were in the world, without the need of an airport.

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by Jack_www
What I have done with helicopters is make them able to transport any kind of unit. Now I can use them to transport tanks, mech infi., radar artillery to any city of mind and use them in the same turn. I find that this is very usefull and you dont have to keep alot of you units in one spot since you can deploy them even to cities oversees in an instant. They are also usefull in transporting defensive units to lands that you conquered overseas, since building the units in those cities would take a long time, and transport by sea would be quicker but would take a long time still, helicopters can do it in one turn any were in the world, without the need of an airport.

why don't you just give your UU 500 attack and never obsolete and no prereq and 1 shield to build?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by godinex
No You Can´t, But if a city have barraks is not a problem.
The usual strategy is to maintain a 10 or 12 foot soldiers loaded in a Helo, they can be quickly delivered by a single rebase and can attack in the same turn or be upgraded. They are a fast response force.

Hmmm. Sounds kinda like IRL.

[-=Vagrant=-]

My only use for helos: scout duty around own cities.

[godinex]

The Holy question here is why the Hell the Workers and the settlers can´t be loaded or airlifted?

[ACooper]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
Its not much of a guess when laid on the backdrop of the Firaxis patch history. We discovered the lumberjack strat, that was patched out, we discovered the palace bounced, that was patched, whip abuse, patched, we learned to exploit tech brokering, Firaxis reworked that so that the AI trades excessively with itself.

The major changes not related to bug fixes have focused on propping up the AI. Consistant with original game design.

Do I have to list all the things that were cut from Civ2 (and SMAC for that matter) to convince you? Its been done ad infinitum.

Huh? What does a list of things cut in Civ 3 have to do with helocopters not landing on carriers because of the AI? Your logic is flawed. and I use the term "logic" loosely.

Helocopters and Carriers question is more along the lines of Bombers and Boats. What does it have to do with the AI's programming?

Never mind....it's like arguing with a chimp.

[ACooper]

Originally posted by Carver
Helo's need to be able to operate off a carrier, the prohibition is ridiculous. Sending in paratroopers to raze a lightly guarded enemy city would be great fun.



ACooper, it's not wild guessing. The function isn't there and the AI is not programmed to do functions that are not available. Jimmytrick reasonably concluded that FIRAXIS was not confident that the AI would use helos on carriers effectively (as they don't use marines effectively either) so they didn't include the function. That may not be proof positive, but it is not "wild ass guessing".

It's reasonable that Firaxis was not confident whether the AI could make my breakfast in the morning so they didn't put that feature in the game.

D$%^ YOU FIRAXIS!!

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by UberKruX



why don't you just give your UU 500 attack and never obsolete and no prereq and 1 shield to build?

why do you say that??? That is about the only thing I have changed with the editor and I only did it to make helicopters more usefull.

[Inverse Icarus]

you made it so combined with rails, you can move a unit across the entire world in a second. thats not how it's supposed to work

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
Do I have to list all the things that were cut from Civ2 (and SMAC for that matter) to convince you? Its been done ad infinitum.

or ad nausium.

I stay away from Advanced flight tech unless there is nothing left to research. If you are forced to do an air landing, build paratroopers, that way, you don't need to build one helo for every unit you build that you want to drop.

[godinex]

I insist... the best way to defend a recently added city is by the Helos. Imagine You have 2 colums of 8 tanks each, only two transports and You need desperatly the reinforcement... take a few Helos to carry infantry units to defend the cities every turn. You dont need more transports... only for the tanks or the artillery.

[Nemo]

I have been playing around with trying to get teh helicopter on the carrier all day, it has been bugging the crap out of me that it cant.
I t is not an AI issue. it is a transport issue. The editor WILL allow the AI to use the helo properly (or so it seems), how ever the problem seems to lie withing NOT allowing a transport within a transport. I can see how this can cause problems. If you are to right click on the carrier, the foot soldier would appear in the list, and if you were to select it, it probably would crash, since its not supposed to be on the carrier, due to carrier specs.

Anyway, I think this is utterly stupid and needs to be fixed.

How to use the Helo's effectively? well, i had planned on doing the following: capital city is inland. i planted a nuke sub with tac nuke on board off the coast of every nations capital who was in the space race. I wanted to put a helo on the carrier, also off the coast. then if their space ship got beyond mine i could drop a nuke, then use the helo to unload a few ground troops into the capital, and stop space ship production.

FIRAXIS, please fix this so we at least have the option to use this via the editor. Without this options, I have found absolutely no use for the Helicopter. I normally don't even research advanced flight due to its lack worth.

[ixnay]

I've actually never built a helo since the 1st game I played (just to try it out)...I might use them more the next time I play, though...

[Barchan]

Originally posted by Carver


Maybe there should be a new unit, the jet transport. America's transports, C-5, C-17, C-141, can carry armor, land on an unprepared airstrip and return home. If we had this, with decent range, that would be a nice option to strike deep into enemy territory.

Oh, yeah, any of these planes will land on unprepared terrain, but the trick is to get them to take off again.

Seriously, though, only the C-17 can operate from unprepared terrain, but it had better be flat, dry and long. C-5s, when fully loaded, will crush unreinforced concrete runways; they'll become permanent static displays if they land on grass. C-141s are more versatile but cannot carry heavy armor. Besides, you're only talking about moving a handful tanks at a time (usually one Abrams per C-5, although they can carry two but with little else onboard). Then there's the required fuel, ammo, personnel, spare parts, etc. This is why it takes the Army up to six months to move a heavy Armor Division anywhere; it's pretty much all got to go by boat or rail.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Barchan

Oh, yeah, any of these planes will land on unprepared terrain, but the trick is to get them to take off again.

You got it right!

If you want to keep any degree of "realism" in your game, theres no way helicopters should be used to move mechanized troops.