Okay, I lied, but this is a POSITIVE THREAD

Capt Dizle · March 21, 2002, 13:12

Having been fried for never making a positive contribution by certain rabid elements here...I thought I would float an idea that I think would improve the game.

This is something that should be doable for multiplay with the editor but I would like to see a SP option for it.

JIMMYTRICK'S GREAT IDEA: Rework the map creation routines to allow a colonization map wherein 25-33% of the map is located accross ocean tiles from the remaining land mass which will contain all of the starting civs. Distribute resources per normal. This will add a great deal to the game as the race to discover and exploit the new world will be critical. Also, the AI seems to already be programed in such a way that it will expand appropriately.

The only other thing is to rework the tech tree so that frigates, privateers and galleons come in at least 2/3s of an age (preferably more) than ironclads, be sure the explorer comes in at the right time, and boy, you will be cooking now.

jt

Ming · March 21, 2002, 13:15

Yes... You Lied. But I won't hold that against you

Capt Dizle · March 21, 2002, 13:17

Its not as if I had any credibility to start with.

Capt Dizle · March 21, 2002, 13:22

Another tweak you would need, make the Great Lighthouse a small wonder to prevent one civ from being able to exploit the new world far in advance of the others. Might have to tweak the AI a bit on building that one.

Arrian · March 21, 2002, 13:23

I like it. CivIII's resource system just begs for a colonization scenario. The AI usually finds small islands in the middle of nowhere much better than I do, but that's probably because I don't focus on it. I still have suspicions of AI "super galleys" but I can deal with that. Galleons and Frigates will be crucial for once, as will Magellan's.

I would, however, settle for a proper editor, so that people can then create things like this w/set starting locations. That would be even more fun.

-Arrian

Capt Dizle · March 21, 2002, 13:33

I would also like to see ocean squares split into two types, good and bad weather zones...the idea being to have map generated shipping lanes that are narrowly defined. Then, to block trade you would only have to find ocean choke points and send naval units out, great for privateering and later a setting for large naval actions...suddenly navies count and you might have a reason to build carriers and load planes for gosh sake.

SpencerH · March 21, 2002, 13:43

A great idea for a game. Shouln't it be do-able now? Use Marla's map and dont use any North or South American civs. Tournament #7?

Capt Dizle · March 21, 2002, 13:48

Arrian,

I don't think the AI has super galleys. I had a game where I was on a continent with one other civ. I was on the north end and there were three islands to the north. I expanded up that was an watched closely. None of the AI ships from other continents showed up until they had the tech. The civ on the southern end of my continent tried like heck to get there, but since I had the Lighthouse and could anchor ships in sea tiles, I would use a trio of galleys to block the two coast and first sea tile so that the AI could not get around it without ending its turn on a sea square and risk sinking.

I would watch the AI sail up the coast, then set up the block, and then the AI would turn around next time and sail home. If I moved out of the blocking position it would turn around and try to get to those islands. It was like I had the AI on a string.

So, Soren has taught the AI to find islands, calculate a legal path, and follow it. That's a big improvement in AI from previous games and I don't think it cheats in this manner.

jt

Spiffor · March 21, 2002, 14:09

Nice idea, but the AI would have to be reworked a bit : on Imperialism map (which is excellent), as soon as I have navigation, settling the new world becomes my top priority, and I send caravels completely filled with settlers (without troops), while the AI sends a ship with one settler and one unit to protect it, and becomes late in the colonization race.
Maybe modifying the AI when it comes to colonizing other continents will help making the Japs and the Brits better on Marla's ?

ACooper · March 21, 2002, 14:26

JT, great idea.

Zachriel · March 21, 2002, 14:59

Never say never.

nationalist · March 21, 2002, 15:04

This is an example of a good, constructive post. I like the idea.

Capt Dizle · March 21, 2002, 15:07

This is the kind of change that Firaxis needs to make, rather than depending on mods, for the reason Spiffor noted (thanks btw, didn't know about the Imperialism map).

If you change the game without being able to tweak the AI you often end up with something less than you had in the first place.

So, I don't pay much attention to mods until patching is done, or in this case, expansion as well.

The exception of course is multiplay where AI is not such a problem. Maybe we will get that someday.

Capt Dizle · March 21, 2002, 15:10

Nationalist, you are supposed to have me on ignore you know.

Jawa Jocky · March 21, 2002, 15:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
I like it. CivIII's resource system just begs for a colonization scenario. The AI usually finds small islands in the middle of nowhere much better than I do, but that's probably because I don't focus on it. I still have suspicions of AI "super galleys" but I can deal with that.
-Arrian

There are two reasons I don't believe in the "super galley"
1) I have been on an untouchable Island before. I built the GL and was the only one capable of traveling to and from my Island.
2) I have bought maps from the AI and seen failed search attempts.

The AI will send galleys on suicide missions to look for more land. I do it when I know there is land, and the AI does it (I'm not sure what tiggers it). You have a chance of surviving (not sure on %) so if you send several galleys you will make it eventually.

This does sound like a cool scenario. The 1st civ to set-up a Palace or FP would have a huge advantage.

godinex · March 21, 2002, 16:23

I like the idea, but why in a Huge Map? are too slow, a large map is fine...

Arrian · March 21, 2002, 16:46

Ship movement for large and huge maps would also have to be increased... 4 moves/turn on Marla's map is brutal... and I was just colonizing Australia from China... I took one look at the Pacific while pondering if I could get a city or two in S.America and laughed. Huge maps are too much for my poor computer anyway, this could work on normal maps too.

Hmm... I like the idea of "ocean" and "rough ocean" to create shipping lanes. Destroyers would be the first ship that was 100% reliable in "rough" waters. Frigates/Galleons/Ironclads would be reasonably safe, but not totally. Privateers would be so-so, Caravels would do poorly, and galleys would be just about guaranteed to sink.

I should have added one thing to my "super galley" comment. I know they don't have the old unsinkable trireme, but the search/explore function I think kinda "knows" where the islands are. That's all. And it probably needs that help.

-Arrian

Capt Dizle · March 21, 2002, 16:49

I agree 100% that the AI has full map knowledge insofar as terrain. I am not sure about cities and improvements and stuff like that.

Capt Dizle · March 21, 2002, 16:57

I would like to post an example on the limitations of mods using alpha centauri, which is a game most here have heard of if not played.

It used the SE system giving government choices. One attribute was police rating, the idea being that the higher the rating, the more citizens are kept content. Higher rating allowed more police and if high enough each unit could make two citizens content.

I wanted to improve the factions I was playing against so that the game would be harder. I gave a +5 rating to a test faction to see how that would work. What happened was that the AI could use three police units and quell six citizens but THE AI DID NOT RECOGNIZE THIS and so it was adjusting its specialists as necessary to deal with unhappiness as if the +5 rating did not exist.

You can mod from now to eternity but its all for nought unless the AI can interpret the modifications. That is why I cringe when I hear someone say, shutup if you don't like something just change it in the editor. Those changes don't always work, and I am afraid that Firaxis will use it as too much of a crutch rather than work hard to balance it so that mods are not required to get gameplay in shape.

Arrian · March 21, 2002, 17:07

Yeah, that's the Achilles Heel of gameplay changes... the AI may ignore them. Such as the new poprush rules. The AI operates as if they are still playing 1.16, and therefore self-destructs when at war, particularly in the industrial age (well, they already did to a certain extent, but now it's clearly noticeable).

If the AI is changed for this type of scenario, might that mess it up for a more standard land expansion? I don't know.

-Arrian

Capt Dizle · March 21, 2002, 17:12

That is what playtesting is for. And I don't know why Firaxis doesn't put out a patch beta and let us test it for them. Hmm, maybe they did.

Cyclotron · March 21, 2002, 18:48

Haven't played yet, can't really comment... but I can't resist:

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian Hmm... I like the idea of "ocean" and "rough ocean" to create shipping lanes. Destroyers would be the first ship that was 100% reliable in "rough" waters. Frigates/Galleons/Ironclads would be reasonably safe, but not totally.

Actually, the Monitor of ironclad fame sank in a storm not far off the coast. The traditional ironclads were definitly not seafaring vessels... Only the most advanced ironclads could even make sea voyages, and by that time you can almost consider them destroyers.

rpodos · March 21, 2002, 19:04

First off, GREAT idea. I especially like the shipping lanes concept. It would also be useful to bring caravans back, otherwise ships would be coming back empty more often than not. I think the AI could handle colonization, especially if certain resources were NOT available on the main continent.

Second, if any Firazians are listening, you have GOT to take a look at Empire, one of Sid's early games. It dealt with water and navies even better Civ2 did, including RIVERS.

Good one, jt.

R

Ethelred · March 22, 2002, 08:39

A nice idea Jimmy. Not a major change to the game but mostly a fairly simple map option. Continents with all civs set to one area of the map.

The other change you proposed to balance ships under those conditions sound OK. The Lighthouse as a small wonder wouldn't realy be a needed change. Not with ships with greater range anyway. The one potential flaw in a single player game is a matter of information. The player has it. The player chose the map option and KNOWS there is a important uninhabited continent. Thats a big advantage for the player. Even bigger than knowing whether the player selected Pangea or Archipelago.

The weather based tiles ideas is not so hot. Freeping Creaturism. To many features and you are no longer playing a civilization game but a navigation and meteorology sim.

AI Super Galleys were also mentioned here by others. I don't think they exist. They may have prior to 1.17f or at least prior to the first patch. They don't exist anymore. Heck I just beat the Greeks to another continent and THEY had the Lighthouse. They seemed to following the Sea tiles quite nicely but they certainly weren't trying long excursions into the ocean. May not have tried any based on the maps I traded for.

I however DID try a couple long excursions based on where I thought a continent might lay. Went to the farthest east point I could in coastal waters and ended my move before I used all my movement. Then struck out east the next turn. Lost my ship just as I spoted the French borders, I could just see the edge of their tiles.

Later when I noticed the Greeks sailing in on the Sea tiles I decided to make another stab at it before they used the Lighthouse to aid them in the same manuever, as I would have survived my first try if I had the Lighthouse. Survived to two turns on the ocean and made contact first.

That is the sort of thing that Jimmy's idea would engender and the AI is not likely to make that sort of decision at present. So a AI tweak would be needed. The AI would have to know as much as the player. Either that or the Super Galley would be needed for the AI again. Tweaks to the different civs styles of seafaring would be good as well. Might make the English a bit more competent if they were more daring at sea then other civs.