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Old March 22, 2002, 18:09   #31
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Yeah, I really don't understand why both sides try to show that they were there "first" when their real claims are based on their presence right now. Even if we only went back 100 years, Palestinians would be forced to leave certain areas where they are now the majority and Jews would have little land at all. If we went back 2,000 years, things would get more confused without benefitting either side much, since genetic studies have proved that Palestinians and Jews are closer to each other genetically than they are to Egyptians or even Syrians.
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Old March 22, 2002, 18:33   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Keygen
Quote:
(dug was the second)
I fully support his statement. AT least that one.

Israelis have no more right to the land than the Palestinians who were unlawfully kicked out.
I have noticed that the most common argument of the people who disagree with the establishment of Israel is that they came after the Palestinians. Like nobody ever read about the history of Middle East. Where were those Palestinians when Hebrews first settled there 3000 years ago?
I cold always argue that the Palestinians were there over 3000 years ago because of Haggar and that they were kicked out of Abraham's land by Issac's father. But I wont... Ancient history does not matter- If I wnated to I could argue that the Italians still have a right to france, which they dont... This is why I do not like nationality- I believe nationalities are evil and like race, should be abolished. There should be an agreed set of festivals which all people celebrate and there should be one nation.
Quote:
Does anyone knows that the Babylonians when conquered Israel destroyed their temple (the most sacred symbol of theirs) and forced all Hebrews to leave their home and serve them as slaves in Babylon in the 6th century BC? They have been forced to leave Palestine many times in the past by many different conquerors.

I have the feeling that the newer nations can't understand terms like instauration
So? How do past events affect the future- the people who conquer the land have the right to own the land. The people who are conquered have the right to dissent. That is the way things are. I do disagree with, however, the way that the Palestinians were wholesaledly forced to leave their homes by the British and Jewish peoples.
-
Listen, everyone should live together- correct?
But I can see why the Palestinians were angered- there was no real war- yes there was a war, but it was not excessively large (at least as I understand it->apologies because most of my experience is limited to survey knowledge->I study European History more than Jewish history) However, The Palestinians were forced to leave their homes.

And just how legal is that of a fundamentalist religious government- I mean, it could be if over 90% of the people in a country were that religion- but that is not the case, and thus, it is just not fair.

Religion and politics dont mix when there are too many diverse religions in each sector. The Jews and Muslims should co-govern the land; not split it up more.
-
And In the end I shalt say this:
I am not Anti-semitic, I am not Anti-Palestinian, I equally dislike Muslims,Christians,Atheists,Jewish people, Buddhists, etc.
I believe in equality of dislike.
-
I would also like to say that I support Natan and Rogan Josh's arguments.
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Old March 22, 2002, 18:39   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rogan Josh


You are not getting this are you?

It doesn't ****ing matter what the history is. It doesn't ****ing matter what happened 3000 years ago. All that matters are the people. Anyone born in Irael/Palestine should have the right to live there, unpersecuted for their religion and with a say in their government. It shouldn't matter what their colour is, or their religion or their political persuasion.
Is this relative to my answer to DarkCloud?

Did I mentioned that Palestinians don't have the write to live there as well?

Of cource both have the right to live there. My argument was that Hebrews too have the right to live there and have their own independed state.

History doesn't matter? What ingorance
So if I come to your house and kick you out you don't have the right to come back and kick me out? Geez, I hope you have a better house than I have 'cause I am comming to kick you out

OK, things are more complicated than that but you can get an idea that because of historical reasons both Hebrews and Palestinians have the right to live there while if the Germans would claim the area would be great unjustice indeed.
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Old March 22, 2002, 19:01   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarkCloud

I believe nationalities are evil and like race, should be abolished. There should be an agreed set of festivals which all people celebrate and there should be one nation.
DarkCloud, you know that nationalities exist and all people all over the world strongly support it. I wish to live and see the entire world united as one state but retaining nationalities in a degree is not something to easily abandon, not even for me.


Quote:
Originally posted by DarkCloud
However, The Palestinians were forced to leave their homes.
After the colapse of the Ottoman empire Hebrews started returning to their old homelands. The migration got more intence during 30s and 40s. Palestinians started feeling threaten by the increasing number of Hebrews in the area. I can understand them but I do understand the right of the Hebrews returning home. Palestinians started harrasing the "newcommers". Hebrews fought back. Then the Palestinians and the arabs from the surrounding areas attacked the Hebrews in an open war. And the whole thing started. So historically the beginning of the fight was made by the Palestinians/Arabs.

What I don't like in the modern Israel however is that although they have the power to satisfy the Palestinians the don't do it. They got greedy. They even assaninate Rabin, the only person that could equally share the lands between both sides and end the Palestinian issue.

Quote:
Originally posted by DarkCloud
I believe in equality of dislike.
I beleive in the equality of like
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Old March 22, 2002, 22:05   #35
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I hope Sweden doesn't give us ultimatum and claim their old lands back, because they were here. I couldn't see myself packed with c-4 in stockholm.
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Old March 22, 2002, 22:22   #36
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I apologize for my last one. Bad joke, very bad.
And i'm not israelbiased, but i'm not propals either.
I have a great solution to this of my own. Lets develop a new bomb called 'memoryloss' and bomb israel and palestine with it. Then when they all wake up, they don't remember a thing. Then we destroy all the newspapers etc, and say they're the best friends.
And while we're at it, we should also bomb this memorybomb to all countries. No one would remember differencies, or history, wars etc. Before we do that, let's destroy all other weapons too.
Before bombing we should also remake some stuff like forget the idea of national borders and nationalities. Also new priorities that are different from power and money and ownership and products.
Who wants to see this bomb used ? I do!

Oh damn, i just realized i sound like a dirty hippy. I should kick myself in the nuts.

ps. also fast internet connections to all before bombing!
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Old March 22, 2002, 23:16   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Keygen
History doesn't matter? What ingorance
So if I come to your house and kick you out you don't have the right to come back and kick me out? Geez, I hope you have a better house than I have 'cause I am comming to kick you out
His point is that the people who live there now are the ones that matter. Not someone with a claim based on some long dead ancestor. So, certainly he would have the right to kick you out of his house, but he wouldn't have the right to kick you out of a house that some ancestor of his was kicked out of 3000 years ago. My ancestors on my paternal grandmothers side had a farm taken from them when they fled the US due to being United Empire Loyalists (i.e. they were on the losing side of the US revolution). My dad did some digging around and found the old deeds. It is quite clear that the farm is now covered by a good chunk of urban Boston. Should I be able to claim it back?
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Old March 23, 2002, 00:03   #38
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Reply to Keygen:
Quote:
Is this relative to my answer to DarkCloud?
Yes, Not completely, but the last line is very relevant.
Did I mentioned that Palestinians don't have the write to live there as well?

Of cource both have the right to live there. My argument was that Hebrews too have the right to live there and have their own independed state.
[/quote]
The Hebrews, yes, an independent state- but it should have representation from both sides.
Even if you think that it "shouldnt" then you would have to agree that it certainly would help lower the violence in the region, and I am willing to sacrafice right for peace.
Peace is more important than Political Correctness.
Friendship is more important than being right.
This is a hard thing for me to say, but I'll say it.

Quote:
History doesn't matter? What ingorance
So if I come to your house and kick you out you don't have the right to come back and kick me out? Geez, I hope you have a better house than I have 'cause I am comming to kick you out
Yes, but how far are you willing to go back.
History is my hobby.
I love history.
But I put it in its place.
History misdone can turn into a problem such as Echinda describes.
Everyone should live together AS THEY ARE.
People should do what they can and not be weak jerks and claim that they have "rights" to own land in certain areas because some grandparent 1000 years ago owned a hovel on the spot.
All that matters in regards to land claims is the present.

Quote:
OK, things are more complicated than that but you can get an idea that because of historical reasons both Hebrews and Palestinians have the right to live there while if the Germans would claim the area would be great unjustice indeed.
No. If Germany conquered the land- it would be, by rights theres.
And yes, the Palestinians and Israelis would have full rights to uprise if they were not represented in the governing of their provinces.
Both sides are at fault.

Quote:
but retaining nationalities in a degree is not something to easily abandon, not even for me.
It may not be easy, but it should be done- for if it is done then it would be excessively easier to live together without someone hating someone, then reading up on how he is a Slav, then telling everyone how evil the Slavically decended peoples are, then getting them to gang up on him and his family
and restarting the cycle of violence.

Quote:
After the colapse of the Ottoman empire Hebrews started returning to their old homelands. The migration got more intence during 30s and 40s. Palestinians started feeling threaten by the increasing number of Hebrews in the area. I can understand them but I do understand the right of the Hebrews returning home. Palestinians started harrasing the "newcommers". Hebrews fought back
"Returning to their homeland"
Why cant they make a real homeland!
Why do they have to return to the homeland of their Grandparents!
This is one thing that I DO respect the americans for.
For the most part, Americans respect no part of their "country" and move on to where jobs are, and stay away from "traditional sections"

If the Hebrews who "returned" had themselves been displaced- I support them.
If this is not so- then they had no right to return.
Of course after the war, they established their right, but in the beginning they had no right.

And Yes, Might and Conquest do make right.

---
But all the people who are there should treat and govern each other fairly and equally.

If there were no Nationalities or REligions, there would be no problem... hmm...
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Old March 23, 2002, 13:01   #39
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Old March 23, 2002, 14:24   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by WhiteElephants
Don't you think, just maybe, that since there are only three people in the world (?) who you feel can "combat" (nice word choice) palestinian propaganda that maybe your view is a little stilted?
No, I merely point out that the level of english and arguement of most representatives of our Foreign Ministry is quite low.

There are more than enough people sharing my view, sadly, most aren't invited on international networks.

It's nice to see however, that a person who lives so far away and knows, oh, perhaps 30% of what's going on here, thinks that it is my view that is wrong.

Quote:
OK maybe its an international conspiracy set up by the ancient order of the illumanti, CNN, BBC, and various shadow goverments, or maybe, just maybe, you've deluded yourself. I'm going to let you decide, but I'll let you in on a secret -- there's one rational answer, and there's one irrational answer.
The problem is that one side lies his shoes off, and another side says the truth, however people far away can't tell the difference and think that the truth is inbetween.

I already showed examples of palestinians lying, when Arafat claimed Israelis use palestinian children's corpses in their hospoitals, when his newspapers accuse Jews of working according to the plans of the Elders of Zion, and school books which depict Jews as the children of Satan and enemies of Islam.

Visit the sites I presented in a previous post, and maybe your vision will be clearer.
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Old March 23, 2002, 14:27   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
What historical connection? You mean with the Jews that were "tranferred" away from Palestine by the Romans two millennia ago? That's very thin don't you think?
No, I don't think so.

The link is undeniable, given how the Bible, the Jewish prayers and literature and songs all refer to Israel and Zion (=Jerusalem).

This is just as undeniable as the Muslim's link to Mecca and Medina.

Quote:
So who lived in the area before then? Who fought with the crusaders?
Quote:
Are you sure it was Jews who fought the crusaders? Seems like there were other peoples in the area for a long time.
Are you claiming that Saladin was Palestinian ?

There were very little people who actually lived in Palestine itself.

And even they, never saw themselves as palestinians, but rather a part of the bigger Muslim nation.
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Old March 23, 2002, 14:28   #42
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Yeah, but Siro, even if Arafat is lying his *ss off about such things, we don't hear it in our news, so it doesn't matter. On the other hand, we don't get to see the brutality inflicted upon Palestinians, either. Perception is taken for reality, and what we percieve in our news is that the Israelis are beset by savages. Fortunately, some of us go beyond the bourgeois American media.
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Old March 23, 2002, 14:32   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kamrat X
You´re full of ****, Siro. That´s just zionist justification of a illegal occupation of Palestine territory.
It is you who are full of sh!t.

The only ****ing reason we started 1967 was because the ****ing arabs were employing terrorist tactics against us.

And again you should notice there was never a palestine.

Great Palestine is a name for a region which includes also some parts of Lebanon and Syria and Jordan, and was given by the roman empire.

No nation has ever seen itself "Palestinian" until the 20th century.

Until the 60s, the arabs living here considered themselves either Syrians or just "Arabs".
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Old March 23, 2002, 14:38   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Yeah, but Siro, even if Arafat is lying his *ss off about such things, we don't hear it in our news, so it doesn't matter.
No, it does matter.

It's only a proof of how biased towards faked even-hand policy your TV networks are.

I've seen Arafat's interview on Al-Jazira myself, were he showed pictures of decapitated children, not clear who or where from, and claimed that this proves that Israelis are using limbs and organs of Palestinian children, in their hospitals, for their own Jewish children.

Quote:
On the other hand, we don't get to see the brutality inflicted upon Palestinians, either.
Sure you do.

There's hardly a thing that relates to the Palestinian suffering that you don't see on TV.

Infact, BBC often portrays captured or failed terrorists as "innocent victims". I've seen a palestinian march in memory of two terrorists who failed and exploded without injuring anyone, being described as "more aggravation caused by Israel".

Bad Israelsi we are. We don't explode when when being bombed.

Quote:
Perception is taken for reality, and what we percieve in our news is that the Israelis are beset by savages. Fortunately, some of us go beyond the bourgeois American media.


Nice.

Say, if you're against this evil bourgeois society, why do you keep living in it and taking advantage of it?

Move to an island, and start your own society.
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Old March 23, 2002, 14:40   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by laurentius

Gee what a clever response answering my points so well.

Just like you always do.
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Old March 23, 2002, 14:51   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rogan Josh
Well, as far as I am concerned, this sort of statement should be a banning offense. It is cleary racism of the worst kind.
Yes, clearly.

It is me who claimed palestinains are the children of satan and drink blood of Jews.

I also called for their extermination in cleansing not seen like since the days of the mongols.

Oh wait. The arabs said that. I appologize.

Quote:
I have a very good friend who is Palestinian - she was born there and brought up there and has never committed any crime. She is well eductaed (I am sure she is a hell of a lot better educated than Sirotnikov) and a nice, well-meaning person. Who has more right to the place of her birth?
Her niceness and well meaning is all very nice. But it has nothing to do with historic facts.

I am too a nice and well meaning person, from a line of people who were forcefully evicted from my homeland and persecuted around the globe.

People representing my nation wanted to go back to the homeland and live in peace with our neighbours the palestinian arabs, those who were there, and those who immigrated there.

The newly immigrating and local palestinains however, decided that they alone can live there, because the land "belongs" to muslem and can't be shared by anyone else.

Furthermore, muslim leaders, such as the Mufti, spread false claims about Jewish intentions to murder muslims and destroy muslim holy sites, as early as 1922.

Quote:
Are you sure it was Jews who fought the crusaders? Seems like there were other peoples in the area for a long time.
Again I'm asking you to remember who really fought the crusaders, and ask yourself if their majority lived in palestine, or called themselves palestinians.

However, I feel the need to remind you that there indeed were jews in "palestine" during the time of the crusades, and there were before, and there were after.

They were a small percent among a small population living in palestine.

Quote:
Her, or someone who was not born there but happens to be of a religion which was in dominance in the area 2000 years ago?
Judaism is not only a religion. It is also an ethnical group and a nationality.
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Old March 23, 2002, 14:52   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tom201
Hm, from my experience u get more Israel propaganda than palastinien one. At least on TV. When they show pictures its usually of Israelis died or injured by a terror act. Retalition Actions on the normal news is only text message with maybe showing some helicopter (not the victims). When they show Palastins they show either stone throwing kids or radicals swearing revenge, firing weapons etc.
So its more one sided in favor of Israel (German/Dutch tv)
Well, it's hardly so on BBC or in French TV.

However, the massive terracts and Israeli retaliations are a small portion of what goes on here, daily.
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Old March 23, 2002, 15:02   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarkCloud
I cold always argue that the Palestinians were there over 3000 years ago because of Haggar and that they were kicked out of Abraham's land by Issac's father. But I wont... Ancient history does not matter- If I wnated to I could argue that the Italians still have a right to france, which they dont...
If for 2000 years, france appeared in italian literature and song and prayers as their homeland, then I would say they have a right to france.

Quote:
This is why I do not like nationality- I believe nationalities are evil and like race, should be abolished. There should be an agreed set of festivals which all people celebrate and there should be one nation.
I disagree with you about nationalities. I think humanity is too young to co-exist as one nationality.

People want to devide themselves according to their customs and history - why shouldn't they?

Quote:
So? How do past events affect the future- the people who conquer the land have the right to own the land. The people who are conquered have the right to dissent. That is the way things are. I do disagree with, however, the way that the Palestinians were wholesaledly forced to leave their homes by the British and Jewish peoples.
The palestinains were not forced to leave their homes, until the very war in 1948.

Most people who left, left on thier own, fearing an attack by Arab forces on the Jewish cities, and not wanting to get in the cross fire.

If that is "ethnic cleansing" then by all means, now the Palestinians are thenically cleansing Israel.

Thousands of Israelis have left Israel, fearing the terracts and the soon approaching wars.

Quote:
Listen, everyone should live together- correct?
But I can see why the Palestinians were angered- there was no real war- yes there was a war, but it was not excessively large (at least as I understand it->apologies because most of my experience is limited to survey knowledge->I study European History more than Jewish history) However, The Palestinians were forced to leave their homes.
There were little examples of palestinians being forced to leave, and this only during the war in 1948.

Most left in advance.

Quote:
And just how legal is that of a fundamentalist religious government- I mean, it could be if over 90% of the people in a country were that religion- but that is not the case, and thus, it is just not fair.
??
Judaism is a nationality. There's a special ministry for muslim and christian needs as well.
Quote:
Religion and politics dont mix when there are too many diverse religions in each sector. The Jews and Muslims should co-govern the land; not split it up more.
That has proved impossible and none of the sides want it.

Why should you with your universal ideas force people to live together?

Quote:
And In the end I shalt say this:
I am not Anti-semitic, I am not Anti-Palestinian, I equally dislike Muslims,Christians,Atheists,Jewish people, Buddhists, etc.
I believe in equality of dislike.


Quote:
I would also like to say that I support Natan and Rogan Josh's arguments.
Eh, I find it hard to support Rogan Josh's arguements.
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Old March 23, 2002, 15:07   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
If for 2000 years, france appeared in italian literature and song and prayers as their homeland, then I would say they have a right to france.
That's really the weakest arguement I've seen in this thread or any other ME thread. The fact that the Jews feel guilty for thier terrorist attacks on the Romans doesn't give them a legal right to land upon which someone else is living.
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Old March 23, 2002, 15:08   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior
The fact that Hebrew people give more right to leave here only for their eyes.

The fact that they build the country is a good point for them.
But Pals people give them hands too to build cities and building.

Since Israelis have perfectly the right to leave here. But Pals too.
I agree that the palestinians have a right to live here.

However, they, starting from the 1920's have been constantly hostile to the Jewish population, and wanted to ethnically cleanse them.

It didn't work out for them - instead we kicked their asses. Too bad for them.

And still, there are 1,100,000 arabs who live in Israel with equal rights.

Quote:
What they refuse to understand apparently is that other nations will not considere as normal that Israel gouvernment destroy the house of palestinian living here for several generation now to settle newbie Israeli.
To which houses do you refer?

Many palestinians were living in their houses on "rented" land, which they rented from the Turkish government. The Turkish government made them pay taxes.

When Jews bought land from the turks, they let most arabs stay and work for the new jewish land lords. Those who left, were paid.

However, in 1948 they declared war of ethnic cleansing on Jews. I think no one in his senses thinks we had any other choise but fight back vigorously.
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Old March 23, 2002, 15:10   #51
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Originally posted by Rogan Josh
You are not getting this are you?

It doesn't ****ing matter what the history is. It doesn't ****ing matter what happened 3000 years ago. All that matters are the people. Anyone born in Irael/Palestine should have the right to live there, unpersecuted for their religion and with a say in their government. It shouldn't matter what their colour is, or their religion or their political persuasion.
Fine by me.

Now go tell that to the Arab armies who sought to cleanse the land of jews in 1948.

Go tell that to the arab rioters and murderors in 1929.

Go tell that to Arafat, whose henchmen said even in 2000, that "the peace process is a stage in a strategy of phases" to rid the land of Jews.
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Old March 23, 2002, 15:19   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Echinda
His point is that the people who live there now are the ones that matter. Not someone with a claim based on some long dead ancestor.
Long dead ancestor?

Go tell that to people who for 2000 years sang and dreamt of Jerusalem.

Quote:
So, certainly he would have the right to kick you out of his house, but he wouldn't have the right to kick you out of a house that some ancestor of his was kicked out of 3000 years ago.
You are reffering to Jews as if they wanted to kick someone out.

They didn't.

Infact, zionist Jewish thinkers debate the question of a single nation for jews an arabs, or two nations for two people.

There wasn't a single thinker who suggested cleansing the land or anything similar.

The result - some 500,000 - 700,000 Palestinian residents leaving the land, was a result of the war that broke out - a war initiated by the Arabs.

Most left prior to the war, many encouraged by the Arab politicians to "make way for the armies", and some were deported by force, due to allegiance to the Arab armies.

Quote:
My ancestors on my paternal grandmothers side had a farm taken from them when they fled the US due to being United Empire Loyalists (i.e. they were on the losing side of the US revolution). My dad did some digging around and found the old deeds. It is quite clear that the farm is now covered by a good chunk of urban Boston. Should I be able to claim it back?
Your case is similar to the case of most Palestinian refugees.

They left prior to the war, or during it, making way for the Arab armies to "rid the land of Jews". Some were forced to leave because they supported the Arab armies.

Now, some of their houses are now covered by modern Israeli cities.
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Old March 23, 2002, 15:20   #53
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Sirotnikov
It's only a proof of how biased towards faked even-hand policy your TV networks are.[quote]

Yes, but not in the way you are implying.

Quote:
I've seen Arafat's interview on Al-Jazira myself,
We don't get al-Jazira.

Quote:
Infact, BBC often portrays captured or failed terrorists as "innocent victims". I've seen a palestinian march in memory of two terrorists who failed and exploded without injuring anyone, being described as "more aggravation caused by Israel".
We don't get the BBC. We don't get French TV.

On the other hand, we do get ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, & CNN (not CNN International, which you get). These are all solidly pro-Israel. In addition, the New York Times, Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, and USA Today, which are also solidly pro-Israel.

American opinion is the one that matters, cuz we're the one who keep Israel afloat. Without us, Israel collapses economically and militarily. Stop your whining. My country is overwhelmingly behind Israel.

Quote:
Say, if you're against this evil bourgeois society, why do you keep living in it and taking advantage of it?
I have an obligation to destroy it. You don't do that by leaving.
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Old March 23, 2002, 15:23   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
However, they, starting from the 1920's have been constantly hostile to the Jewish population, and wanted to ethnically cleanse them.
That's not exactly true, Siro. The Palestinians have not been constantly hostile to the Jewish population.

The Zionist movement took place during the time that the Ottoman Empire was breaking up. This encouraged Arabs to espouse nationalism for lands that the Turks formally dominated. At the time, the Palestinians believed themselves to be part of Syria, and because the Turks had objected to Jewish settlement, the Palestinians were willing to consider Jewish immigration as an expression of Syrian nationalism.
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Old March 23, 2002, 15:27   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
The result - some 500,000 - 700,000 Palestinian residents leaving the land, was a result of the war that broke out - a war initiated by the Arabs.

Most left prior to the war, many encouraged by the Arab politicians to "make way for the armies", and some were deported by force, due to allegiance to the Arab armies.
Lies, lies, lies. Most left because they were trying to avoid the fighting, just as happens in every war. When armies come your way, you flee if you are smart or die if you are stupid. Some left becuase of Arab leaders, some were deported by force, and some fled Jewish attrocities. However, the overwhelming majority were just trying to get out of the way of the fighting.

Furthermore, most of the fighting in that war was initiated by the Israelis. Certainly the five broken truces were.
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Old March 23, 2002, 15:28   #56
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Re: Reply to Keygen:
Quote:
The Hebrews, yes, an independent state- but it should have representation from both sides.
Even if you think that it "shouldnt" then you would have to agree that it certainly would help lower the violence in the region, and I am willing to sacrafice right for peace.
Peace is more important than Political Correctness.
Friendship is more important than being right.
This is a hard thing for me to say, but I'll say it.
I disagree.

I think that the notion of a single state is much more PC than two states for two people.

Because - the two people do not wish to live together. Period.

Quote:
Yes, but how far are you willing to go back.
History is my hobby.
I love history.
But I put it in its place.
History misdone can turn into a problem such as Echinda describes.
Everyone should live together AS THEY ARE.
We can't live together as we are since starting from 1922, when the Arab leaders started spreading anti-semitic propoganda, we aren't exactly fond of each other.

Quote:
People should do what they can and not be weak jerks and claim that they have "rights" to own land in certain areas because some grandparent 1000 years ago owned a hovel on the spot.
I don't claim I have a right because of abraham or the two temples.

I have a right because for 2000 years, my ancestors dreamt of coming back.

Quote:
And yes, the Palestinians and Israelis would have full rights to uprise if they were not represented in the governing of their provinces.
Both sides are at fault.
The palestinian - israeli conflict is not one of "uprising".

It's not a single state - and it will never be such.

What exactly happenned:

1967 - after arab provocations and terror from the west bank, Israel conqueres the west bank. Israeli prime minister says it is conqered "as a card, to be given back when they put down their guns".

1993 - Israel is convinced arabs have put down their guns. Talks start. Terrorist acts continue all this time, with no Israeli military reaction.

2000 - After not getting a share as large as they want, the palestinains start a planned war of terror against Israel.
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If there were no Nationalities or REligions, there would be no problem... hmm...
If there were no humans...
animals would behave exactly the same.
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Old March 23, 2002, 15:31   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
That's not exactly true, Siro. The Palestinians have not been constantly hostile to the Jewish population.

The Zionist movement took place during the time that the Ottoman Empire was breaking up. This encouraged Arabs to espouse nationalism for lands that the Turks formally dominated. At the time, the Palestinians believed themselves to be part of Syria, and because the Turks had objected to Jewish settlement, the Palestinians were willing to consider Jewish immigration as an expression of Syrian nationalism.
But after the 1920s, and the great propoganda made by the mufti of jerusalem, most palestinians were exclusively against Jews.

The fact remains, that only 250,000 remained in Israel in 1952.
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Old March 23, 2002, 15:32   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
At the time, the Palestinians believed themselves to be part of Syria, and because the Turks had objected to Jewish settlement, the Palestinians were willing to consider Jewish immigration as an expression of Syrian nationalism.
To build on this, both King Faisal of Syria (the oringal Syria encompassing modern Syria, Lebabon, Israel, the Territories, Jordan, and the Mosul region of Iraq) and later his brother, King Abdullah of Palestine (later divided into West and East Palestine, with East Palestine being renamed Transjordan) wanted the Jews to emigrate and help build their new countries. Abdullah offered the Zionists half the parliament, even though they weren't anywhere close to this number as a percentage of the population. Furthermore, the Nashishibi family of Jerusalem (one of the two ruling families) was also in favor of the Jews emigrating.
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Old March 23, 2002, 15:36   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Lies, lies, lies. Most left because they were trying to avoid the fighting, just as happens in every war. When armies come your way, you flee if you are smart or die if you are stupid. Some left becuase of Arab leaders, some were deported by force, and some fled Jewish attrocities. However, the overwhelming majority were just trying to get out of the way of the fighting.
The arab forces were very happy to promote the fleeding and asked people to flee to "make way".

Even when the jews didn't want the arabs to leave.

http://www.commentary.org/0007/karsh.html

Quote:
Furthermore, most of the fighting in that war was initiated by the Israelis. Certainly the five broken truces were.
Fighting against who?
Did we really fight the palestinians that lived here?
I was under the impression we were attacked by foreign Arab armies.

And the truces and such are irrelevant. Breaking a truce is a tactical decision, and just a matter of who does it first.

I'm talking about a strategic decision - who first decided to clear the land by force?

The arab leaderss decided so as early as the 1920s, as evident from them leading massacares against the Jews through out the 20s and 30s.

Later, the arab countries sent their armies to help their brothers to rid of Jews.
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Old March 23, 2002, 15:38   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
To build on this, both King Faisal of Syria (the oringal Syria encompassing modern Syria, Lebabon, Israel, the Territories, Jordan, and the Mosul region of Iraq) and later his brother, King Abdullah of Palestine (later divided into West and East Palestine, with East Palestine being renamed Transjordan) wanted the Jews to emigrate and help build their new countries. Abdullah offered the Zionists half the parliament, even though they weren't anywhere close to this number as a percentage of the population. Furthermore, the Nashishibi family of Jerusalem (one of the two ruling families) was also in favor of the Jews emigrating.
And where have they all disappeared?

King Faisal signed a document of peace with Wiezman and later anulled it publically.

The real leaders, such as the Mufti al-Hussaini, were all too busy with anti-Jewish propoganda, later tying knots with the Nazi government.

But he spread anti-semitic propoganda starting from the 1920s, and spread rumors about Jews meaning to detonate Temple Mount, in the eve of the 1929 massacares.
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