TO FIRAXIS: Specific Suggestions for Improving Civ III

[Selkirk]

Specific Suggestions for Improving Civ III

AI

A. City governor shouldn't produce extra food in growth inhibited cities.

B. Timed Attack.
Currently, the AI has the ability to decide to go to war before actually declaring war. This is obvious when you watch a stream of AI controlled units march across your territory and then later declare war on your neighbor. In this mode, once the AI decides to declare war, it seems to do so as soon as the first unit has the opportunity to attack.

Instead, the AI should pick a specific future year during which to execute its attack. Then, the Unit AI's should have the ability to hold back and arrive at the desired target at that year. This would allow the AI to better coordinate attacks with ships and ground troops simultaneously, As well as deliver overwhelming force to a specific point at a specific point in time. (exactly what human players do.)

C. Don't allow automated workers to move within capturing distance of a border with a civilization that you are at war with.

D. Fix paratroopers and helicopter units to allow assaults on cities that are behind the initial border cities and teach the AI how to use these units. Currently, you can hold internal cities with warriors even in the modern age if the border cities have enough units in them to discourage attack.

USER INTERFACE

E. Should be able to set the science rate from the science advisor screen.

F. Turns counts are unreadable on science advisor screen.

G. Stack movement.
Shift-J : move only full strength units.

H. Add a summary screen of turn events.

I. Improved trade advisor
Eliminate the need to contact civs to see what they desire in trade.
Change display to
Has.................Desires
*&$@##.............#*(#$*#&
Where #*($#*& are resources and luxuries.

J. Improve foreign Advisor
Add options to Foreign advisor screen to perform all espionage, embassy and intelligence agency functions from this screen.

K. Eliminate science rate micromanagement
Extra beakers (science) should automatically convert to money. (Or anything to avoid setting science every turn, for example a setting to automatically adjust the tax rate to make a discovery every X turns.)

[alexman]

I agree 100% with your suggestions.

In addition, there are several specific game-balance issues with wonders and units that need to be addressed:

-> Musketeer, Musketman, Rifleman, marines need to have higher attack and lower cost. Paratrooper needs higher defense. Privateer, Armies need to be cheaper. Submarines need a higher attack. Modern tanks need a lower defense. Fighters, Battleship, AEGIS, cuise missiles, need a higher bombard ROF. Cuise missiles need a higher range. Radar artillery needs movement of 2.

-> Leaders, artilery need to be airliftable. Artillery, tanks, mech infantry need to be wheeled.

-> Swordsmen, longbowmen, sail-age ships need to be upgradable (so they are removed from build options in modern age)

-> Effect of taxmen, scientists, and wealth, needs to be increased.

-> Cure for Cancer and Longevity are not strong enough. Extra happiness, for example, should fix them.

-> Some spaceship parts need to have higher tech advances as a requirement.

-> Drafting and pop-rushing penaly needs to be reduced (or the AI needs to use them less)

All the above changes are implemented and tested in Player 1's Patch Suggestion MOD

Things that can't be changed in the editor:

-> Reduce tech devaluation that causes rapid advancement with no chance to use all units.

-> Anti-corruption city improvements need to have a minimum effect for completely corrupt cities.

-> Pop-rushing and drafting unhappiness should not remain after a city is "liberated"

-> Commercial and Industrial bonuses should start at city level, not metropolis level. Commercial civs should get cheaper marketplaces and banks. Expansionist civs, cheaper granaries. Millitaristic civs, extra unit support. (All this was suggested by Arian in this thread)

That's all I can think of right now...

[chiefpaco]

Selkirk: That's the best list I've ever seen!

It would greatly enhance the gameplay while keeping the balance just right!

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Selkirk
K. Eliminate science rate micromanagement
Extra beakers (science) should automatically convert to money. (Or anything to avoid setting science every turn, for example a setting to automatically adjust the tax rate to make a discovery every X turns.)

I second that. Micro-managing my workers can be fun, but micro-managing my science rate is only annoying.

[Inverse Icarus]

i concur on the sci rate point, and also on the SHIFT+J "satck move all full health units".

it would also be nice to have a "Move All Units of This Type" where This Type is the selected unit.

[simwiz2]

Originally posted by alexman
Radar artillery needs movement of 2.

IMO that would be unbalancing because you could take an unlimited # of radar artillery, use your RR, use 1 move point to get into range of an enemy city, and then bombard it to pieces that same turn, then take it with MA's and no casualties. The enemy wouldn't even get a chance to counterattack your units, the city would be taken in one turn. It could be like the howie-blitz in the civ2 lategame.

This is based on a 2-square border radius, which assuming OCP, human and AI cities would be 4 squares apart with 2-tile border each. So 1 move for rad arty makes them a siege-type unit, 2 move means they could help in a 1-turn MA blitz. Which is not a good thing IMO.

[swt1]

I concur regarding the city govenor producing food when growth is inhibited.

The AI city govenor along with worker impovements needs work IMO. It is too focused on growth. It should focus more on production while maintaining a reasonable growth rate. This would help the AI by producing more military units and infrastructure.

Consider the massive sized cities the AI makes. After all the tiles are used up all the extra food slowly turns into extra specialists. These specialists contribute just a single point of science or gold. The AI would be better off having more mines and less irrigation to help directly in its production needs.

A similar arguement can be made regarding the AI's choice in distance between cities. Until sanitation is developed each city can only work 12 squares. Why does it space the majority of it's cities to build mega cities which can only be used late game (and then it uses the extra squares for food to turn into 1 gold specialists).

[alexman]

Originally posted by simwiz2

IMO that would be unbalancing because you could take an unlimited # of radar artillery, use your RR, use 1 move point to get into range of an enemy city, and then bombard it to pieces that same turn, then take it with MA's and no casualties. The enemy wouldn't even get a chance to counterattack your units, the city would be taken in one turn. It could be like the howie-blitz in the civ2 lategame.

Okay, maybe this is a matter of taste, and hence not as essential as some of the other elements metioned in this thread.

But I don't agree that 2-movement will make RA like howitzers in Civ2. The bombardment concept is new to Civ3 and cannot kill (only damage) units. If you could use RA in the manner you describe, then you could also now be using bombers in that way, in unlimited numbers, and people would not be complaining that airpower is not powerful enough in Civ3.

[Pius Popprasch]

Originally posted by alexman
-> Commercial and Industrial bonuses should start at city level, not metropolis level. Commercial civs should get cheaper marketplaces and banks. Expansionist civs, cheaper granaries. Millitaristic civs, extra unit supportAll the above changes are implemented and tested in

The DO start on city level. It'S ONE shield or commerce. Not much but many people favor industrial civs already.

[alexman]

Originally posted by Pius Popprasch
The DO start on city level. It'S ONE shield or commerce. Not much but many people favor industrial civs already.

Actually, they don't. See Mike Breitkreutz's (firaxis) post in this thread.

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

its been a long time since i played civ2, but didnt it have farms as upgraded irragation? And cant we have a way to do terraced farms.

Fix polution!!!!!! I had to raise city sizes to 8 and 16. population pollution is idiotic in a non industrial city. pollution yes, but not global warming type of pollution from 1st centurty rome or even 18th century london.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by alexman
-> Musketeer, Musketman, Rifleman, marines need to have higher attack and lower cost.

Gunpowder infantry are defensive weapons. That's why sword lasted well into the musket age. A little cheaper would be good.

Paratrooper needs higher defense.

Paratroopers are supposed to be weak and expendable units. They are used to cut road and rail to prevent reinforcements arrival. Make them cheaper.

Armies need to be cheaper.

I usually have 6-8 armies by the modern age. That should be plenty for such a powerful unit. (I use armies in every game I can.)

A lot of good suggestions, in any case.

[rpodos]

I agree with most of the above. Also:

Obviously, fix the "J" bug for Armies.

Mass upgrades should not activate units.

Bring back caravans.

Figure out how slow tech trading, just a leetle bit.

No more communist meltdowns, please.

Introduce the warfighting AI to the concepts of overwhelming force and focus of force.

Multiple zooms in the game (and as others have said, in the editor).

I play mostly up to tanks, so I can;t really comment on a lot of the en-game issues. Other than that, I think the game is fabulous, and am constantly impressed by the design balance and elegance.

And I like my Immortals!!

R

[Selkirk]

Originally posted by rpodos
Figure out how slow tech trading, just a leetle bit.

Originally posted by alexman
-> Reduce tech devaluation that causes rapid advancement with no chance to use all units.

Rather than crippling the AI to slow down tech trading, the proper fix for this is to improve the areas that the AI is weak at, so that the current emperor level can become the new deity level. With a better AI, the current computer advantages at emperor could become the advantages at a new deity level with all of the lower levels adjusted accordingly. The 1.17F patch whet my appetite for what is possible with AI improvement in a patch.

I Believe that the AI most needs improvement at waging war. My timed attack suggestion is my best effort for a suggestion which might do this and be implementable with a patch sized effort.

Because barracks heal units, a small number of defenders can completely defeat an endless string of small numbers of attackers. The AI seems to simply send an endless stream of units toward its targets as they are produced. I think you can see the effect of this in the number of AI vs AI wars where no cities ever change hands. Also, The AIs inability to coordinate the time the attack of different units results in the AIs complete inability to wage an effective intercontinental war.

By giving the AI the ability to have units wait for a coordinated attack on a target, I believe the computer's ability to wage war would be significantly improved, especially when the realities of an intercontinental war requires multiple transports arrive at a target simultaneously.

The general ability to coordinate units for a timed attack might be too much to ask for. However, the AI already seems to have the ability to move units toward a target during peace with the intent of declaring war. I believe that it would be easier to implement a coordinated attack during this phase.

[notyoueither]

I agree completely Selkirk.

The fundamental principle of warfare for as far back as I am familiar with is to bring maximum force to bear at the critical point in order to destroy your enemy in as short a period of time as possible.

Napoleon was the first to ennunciate and fully understand this principle (in the West) but there are examples of it prior to him. I guess that's why he is known for revolutionizing warfare, among other things.

I think the AI could greatly benefit from *ganging* code. So long as it's defenses are looked after, I can see no way that it could be hurt by using this principle. Yes, you may attack a weak spot in it's defences and enjoy initial success in an attack. But, what will you do about it when 10 or 20 Cavalry pound up to your forces as one or two big stacks and insist on the untimely demise of your invaders.

I've had the Cavalry nightmare happen to me once. It was when a well developed, but distant civ declared war on me. About 20 turns passed with no sign of them. Then 2 cav popped up along my border. No problem, destroyed them easily. Next turn? About 20 Zulu Cavalry hit my single biggest force. When it was over my force was gone and the Zulus captured 8 Cannon. Now I was in big trouble. Lost that one. Was small at the time and there were more where the first 22 came from. But the first 22 effectively destroyed my ability to resist with practically the first shots of the struggle.

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Selkirk
Specific Suggestions for Improving Civ III
USER INTERFACE
K. Eliminate science rate micromanagement
Extra beakers (science) should automatically convert to money. (Or anything to avoid setting science every turn, for example a setting to automatically adjust the tax rate to make a discovery every X turns.)

Other options also exist, such as have science research accumulate to the next objective (and document it as accumulating).

Personally, I really do not mind the micromanagement in this regard.

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by ALPHA WOLF 64
its been a long time since i played civ2, but didnt it have farms as upgraded irragation? And cant we have a way to do terraced farms.

Fix polution!!!!!! I had to raise city sizes to 8 and 16. population pollution is idiotic in a non industrial city. pollution yes, but not global warming type of pollution from 1st centurty rome or even 18th century london.

AW, railroaded irrigation serves as farmland.
Population pollution in a non-industrial city is NOT idiotic, it is realistic!

Imagine all those chimneys, cooking fires (and their smoke), and all the horses (and cattle and/or elephants) and their excrement. A side affect of overpopulation (and its associated unhappiness).

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

Originally posted by Jaybe

Population pollution in a non-industrial city is NOT idiotic, it is realistic!

Imagine all those chimneys, cooking fires (and their smoke), and all the horses (and cattle and/or elephants) and their excrement. A side affect of overpopulation (and its associated unhappiness).

My quote had nothing to do with unhappiness, thats already covered in game rules. the only purpose of pollution in the game is for global warming, and everything i've heard about global warming is that its caused by industrial byproducts, therefore, all the animal excrement, and chimneys in a non industrial city is NOT going to cause global warming so I stand by my statement that it is idiotic unless FACTS prove me wrong.

[Nostromo]

Great suggestions! Here are some other suggestions:

(1) How to improve the city production queue. As it stands, there are two options: either you add items at the end of the list or you delete the whole list. It would be great if we could insert or delete items in the list. (BTW, this feature was already in Alpha Centauri.)

(2) Toggle on or off city radius grid. It would be useful to actualy see the radius of my cities on the main screen. Press control-c, for example, and the city radius appears; press control-c again, and it disappears. (Again, this feature can already be found in Alpha Centauri: the "toggle base grid" option.)

(3) Give me more worker orders. Here are some examples: (a) build road to, then build Mine; (b) build road to, then irrigate; (c) goto, then build mine; (d) goto, then build mine, then build road. The most elegant solution, of course, would be to implement a unit order queue. But if that is too difficult to implement, I would gladly accept a new set of shortcut keys!

[Pius Popprasch]

-Basic tech cost could be adjusted to game level or there could be fewer turns for Deity(as in previous versions).

-A.I. should never sign more than ONE MPP. A.I. should do some calcs before agreeing to an alliance.

-A.I. should focus less on Communism. The typical A.I. empire is pretty centralized and hardly ever benefits from Communism.

I agree with most other suggestions. No Caravans, please.

[Nostromo]

Another thing. I think it would be convenient if the worked tiles were marked, on the main map, with the ressources derived from it. Not always, of course. Suppose you want to give an order to one of your workers. Well, instead of consulting the city screen's ressource map in order to know what needs to be done, you press a shortcut key and the worked tiles appear on the main map (marked, just like in the ressource map, with the ressources derived from them); press that shortcut key again, and it disappears.

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by nostromo
Another thing. I think it would be convenient if the worked tiles were marked, on the main map, with the ressources derived from it. Not always, of course. Suppose you want to give an order to one of your workers. Well, instead of consulting the city screen's ressource map in order to know what needs to be done, you press a shortcut key and the worked tiles appear on the main map (marked, just like in the ressource map, with the ressources derived from them); press that shortcut key again, and it disappears.

isnt that an option in the game?

[Nostromo]

Originally posted by UberKruX


isnt that an option in the game?

You mean the "show food and shields on map" preference? It's not exactly what I have in mind. I may be wrong, but it doesn't tell you what tile is being worked on (you still have to consult the city screen's ressource map to figure that out). Also, it doesn't tell you the amount of food, shield and gold that are derived from those tiles. I want to access the information in the city screen's ressource map without opening the city screen.

[Rusty Nail]

Surrender option:

It is generally agreed that the latter part of the game can often be boring because you know you have won, but still have to use hours of mopping up before it is an official dominance or conquest victory. I seldom complete the rout. Why bother? How about a surrender option when an AI is so outgunned that he has no realistic chance of victory. If he surrenders all his cities are absorbed into your civ. You can choose to reject his surrender offer. This is done in Spave Empires IV and works very well. It would make for faster, more enjotable games.

[Gen.Dragolen]

Catastophic Events:

The one thing the game is missing is the catastrophic natural disaster. Since we already have pollution effects, make it so the weather changes over the centuries as it does in real life.

Consider the effects that Volacanoes have on the environment. Their erruptions have destroyed many civilizations in the past, either by a local effect (Atlantis? and Minoa) or have changed the weather patterns to produce prolonged cooling. So crop failures and starvation become serious problems, especially when it's a neighbour starving and he's eyeing your granaries. You can do this by changing the terrain types according to the climate settings selelcted at the start of the game.

Another good addition would be plagues. The bubonic plague came out of Africa and it's spread followed the trade routes in the late Roman Empire. If it hadn't of devistated Constantinople in the 1200's, the Ottoman Turks would never have conquered it in 1490. That killed half the population in the city because of poor sanitation. Disease already strikes cities surrounded by Jungle, so why can't it strike at other cities on the trade network ?

And next, I would like to see all existing trades for our civ on the F2 Trade Advisor screen. It is ridiculous to have to bother another civ using the Diplomacy screen just to check what we are trading and when the agreement runs out. It would also be nice if the interface could show the existing trades between AI Civ's once a spy is in place or you have an embassy investigate their trade.

By that same token, our Science Advisor should be able to show which Civ's are researching which advancements, once a spy is in place of course, and the already known advancements should show who discovered them first and when. The AI could benefit from this last change since they would know who to trade with to pursue their strategic goals.

These ideas may seem like mountain of details, but they would be very useful in calculating your strategy for each AI Civ. I know many times I wanted to know who was supplying what resources or luxuries to someone I was trying to crush and it would have been nice to buy the resources off them or simply pay for a trade embargo. This would be especially nice at the harder levels when you find yourself greatly out numbered and outgunned.

D.

[player1]

Hmm....

5 months later

[Jaybe]

Gen. D., I think Firaxis passed on the natural disasters because of the perceived lack of "fun factor." Not to mention extra time and resources spent in design and implementation.

[kimmygibler]

Very good suggestions. They are easily patched for the most part as well.

". Improved trade advisor
Eliminate the need to contact civs to see what they desire in trade.
Change display to
Has.................Desires
*&$@##.............#*(#$*#&
Where #*($#*& are resources and luxuries (AND TECHS.)"

[Traelin]

Originally posted by simwiz2


IMO that would be unbalancing because you could take an unlimited # of radar artillery, use your RR, use 1 move point to get into range of an enemy city, and then bombard it to pieces that same turn, then take it with MA's and no casualties.

Yeah I agree. Really any modern artillery should have a MR of 1. For instance, the Crusader (cancelled this year by Rumsfeld) is a HEAVY piece of eq. There's no way in hell that thing would have a comparable MR of 2+ in Civ.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by alexman
-> Pop-rushing and drafting unhappiness should not remain after a city is "liberated"

It seems to me that if you capture a city that was full of unhappy people for whatever reason, they are not going to become happy very soon, unless you cured the problem that made them unhappy (say hunger). Pop rush and draft would stop, but that would not stop the unhappiness immediately.