That shut the old windbag up!

[DanS]

Thatcher will go down as one of the most influential PMs ever. And yes, I expect that sticks in PH's craw.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by *End Is Forever*


The left have to look at themselves here. Thatcher won two elections because, however bad people might have thought the Conservative policies were, the alternative was far, far, far worse. I shudder at the thought of Michael Foot as Prime Minister, or another four "winters of discontent". It wasn't anyone on the right who described the 1983 Labour manifesto as the "longest suicide note in history", was it?

The comments about the Labour party are quite right- although I have immense respect for Michael Foot and consider him the greatest mind in the Labour party of the last half of the 20th century I still think he'd have made a crap PM.

However the Falklands war didn't kill off Labour's chances- it hamstrung the SDP. While they're considered a laughing stock now people forget the fact that their rise to prominence was meteoric. Had the Falklands war not occurred I'm convinced that they'd have been the primary opposition in the 1983 election, and given the state of the economy at the time I'm pretty sure they's have one.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by DanS
Thatcher will go down as one of the most influential PMs ever. And yes, I expect that sticks in PH's craw.

Whenever an American makes a quote like that, the justification usually makes amusing reading and usually goes "Er....um....she agreed with Reagan".

She certainly was massively influential, but then so was bubonic plague, syphilis and Naziism.

[Provost Harrison]

I see the right-winged Yanks and Reagan sycophants have arrived to tell me how mean and nasty I am being. Well boo-hoo

I mean, really, what do you know about her domestic leadership? All you ever saw of her her canoodling with Reagan and swinging her handbag in unison with Reagans zimmerframe against those 'darn evil commies'. Come on off it.

[Adalbertus]

IMHO, Thatcherism was a stage the country had to go through. After the second world war, GB seemed to have slipped into lethargy and economic decline. I spent three month in Bradford in 1989, which is an extremely good example as grass rooted everywhere over the decline. Once upon a time, every othe village had railroad, there were industries etc, where then was grass and a few cows. In 1992/1993, I spent a year in York and Lancaster (good combination ) and one started to restaurate historical cities, electrifice railroad lines etc.
Even if this obviously didn't happen all in three years, the difference was remarkable.

I think these are the real merits of Thatcher, not the actual laws she made.

Not that she did do things a majority agreed with, or that she always did do the best. But to my impression she put an energy into the country which it was lacking before, and everybody was whining about social care or the privileges of old. And it went through a great part of the society, not necessarliy in the way Thatcher intended. New Labor is a result of this.

Be happy you've had her, be happy you don't have her anymore.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
All you ever saw of her her canoodling with Reagan and swinging her handbag in unison with Reagans zimmerframe against those 'darn evil commies'. Come on off it.

I've read some of her writing. All I've ever heard from you is whining about sand in your labia...

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by GP


I've read some of her writing. All I've ever heard from you is whining about sand in your labia...

Oh piss off GP, I suppose you know all about what she has done for this country and how she angered millions and millions, and shafted them. Unless you have a clue what you are on about, get lost

[Seeker]

"or the privileges of old."

LOL considering the percentage of titled aristocrats in the large Thatcher cabinet...(almost all of them)

And how well did Thatcher do on unemployment, the the economic issue which affects the ordinary person the most??

Baroness Thatcher was an embarrassing throwback to an earlier time, kept in power by:

1. The man on the streets need for a bully to 'keep all them damn foreigners in line'

2. The promised benefits of getting everyone laid off...and yes, there have been benefits, but were they real in the sense of keeping people working?

3. Traditionalism. I think she can be credited with discrediting British Traditionalism.

These are the views I got from Phil, a friend who fled Sheffield in the 80s to work here.

[Provost Harrison]

Too right, as a domestic leader she was abysmal, with unemployment through the roof. Her policies were behind the 'yuppie culture' you see, which are just an embodiment of how she did her bit for the rich-poor divide, and kept it growing faster than ever. Oooh, and then we have the Falklands...a real hot potato.

But Maggie was adored by the Americans. At times I think it was the only thing that kept her going on the world stage...because by the end, we didn't.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Yes, that's right, Margaret Thatcher has been forced to withdraw from public speaking due to suffering a series of minor strokes weakening her significantly. She never spewed anything other than hatred and unpleasantness, and although I wouldn't want a stroke to happen to anyone, this is a bit of a blessing in disguise.

Hypocrisy du jour anyone?

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola


Hypocrisy du jour anyone?

I expressed a dislike, and with reason. No hypocrisy there.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Hypocrisy du jour anyone?

No. Yin Yan - uden kakon amiyes kalou. Nothing is exclusively bad and nothing is exclusevly good

(a stroke is bad but not necessairily all bad )

[Ecthy]

She was such a great lady. How dare you speak against her, Provost?

[Paul Hanson]

Thankfully, like red jon, I'm far too young to remember Thatcher's Britain. I just grew up in it.

[KrazyHorse]

Why, oh why, was this thread not titled

All her life's blood is slowly draining away
And she feels that she's weaker every day

http://www.netsector.com/tony/maiden...still_life.htm

[Lars-E]

She was called the Iron Lady. Reminds me of Lord Protector, although her rule was not ironfist; The brits are democratic

Magna Charta; Which was more about ppl rights/voting etc? Earliest of it's kind in the world?

Sidenote, despite Britains imperial past or as an effect thereof; They managed to spread the good news all around. Surpassing the early fervent Irish missionaires who went 'everywhere'.

Maggie was just a conservative in the 'right' wing fraction of the Tory party. Tony Blair is also conservative by Scandinavian standards.

I think the leaning of the socialdemocratic parties in Europe to the right the last decade is...

[DanS]

Bugs: She was very influential in restructuring the British economy, so that now, some years after she was in office, it is on a strong footing. Also, she was a hard-nosed lady, who knew what she was after. That engenders some respect.

That's what this American was thinking about.

Btw, I was no fan of Reagan when he was in office, but after the fact it's pretty easy to see that he was/is hugely influential.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Balls. The 1988 budget was the most suicidally inept piece of ecomonic planning I have ever seen, and it plunged Britain into a long recession.

[reds4ever]

the experience of leaving school and looking for non-existant work in 1986 is probally the reason why i am a socialist now. I forgive Blair a lot of his failings because I can remember what it used to be like working in manufacturing in the north of britain. you only have to look at the music of the time to realize how unpopular she was with young people (The Jam, The Redskins, Billy Bragg and the rest of Red Wedge). I could n't believe it when Kinnock didn't get into office, how much worse did the country have to get before she was thrown out??

oh, and see she took my free school milk away!!!

MAGGIE THATCHER - MILK SNATCHER!!!

[Guynemer]

Off to the Fletcher Memorial Home For Colonial Wasters Of Life And Limb with her!

Err... um... sorry... been listening to quite a bit of Pink Floyd recently.

[DinoDoc]

Could someone explain to me the reasoning behind the poll tax BFB mentioned? The US banned such taxes decades ago.

[KrazyHorse]

Own Goal?

Maggie Thatcher was an evil ***** bent on on turning back the hands of time a century or so.

[Alexander's Horse]

Hey Case - Dominic (3) likes your parrot.

[Case]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Hey Case - Dominic (3) likes your parrot.

Thanks. I got it via a Google image search

I'm a sucker for parrots with big black eyes.

(oh, and I stole the concept from PH )

[*End Is Forever*]

DinoDoc,

Could someone explain to me the reasoning behind the poll tax BFB mentioned?

The poll tax replaced the "rates" - a tax collected by local councils, to (in theory) pay for local services, such as refuse collection, social services and suchlike. The rates were charged per household (I think - can anyone help me out here?), and there's no doubt that they required substantial reform. However, Thatcher's alternative was the "community charge". It was subsequently nicknamed the "poll tax" because the electoral register was used to determine collection. Unfortunately, the poll tax was ridiculously regressive - effectively the "prince" and the "pauper" were paying exactly the same amount in poll tax. This, amongst other things, led to a whole generation of people who took "can't pay, won't pay" completely literally.

On Thatcher's fall from grace, new DTI minister Michael Heseltine drew up a quick list of things which could replace the doomed community charge, and the result was the "council tax" paid on homes to this day.

Alex,

The 1988 budget was the most suicidally inept piece of ecomonic planning I have ever seen, and it plunged Britain into a long recession.

Yes - but we're reaping the benefits of the earlier economic restructuring even today. As you've seen by my opinions on the poll tax, I quite agree that she lost it towards the end of her term in office.

Besides, I'd like to see what you think about Michael Foot's economic planning...

reds4ever,

I forgive Blair a lot of his failings because I can remember what it used to be like working in manufacturing in the north of britain

Thatcher's policies didn't exactly help northern manufacturing - but at least half of the decimated manufacturing was over-unionised and unproductive. The unions signed their own death certificate. If they hadn't created a culture of non-productivity, perhaps Thatcher wouldn't have been so opposed. In fact, I don't doubt that she wouldn't have been.

I'd also like to know what exactly Blair has done for "northern manufacturing"? Sweet **** all, that's the answer.

you only have to look at the music of the time to realize how unpopular she was with young people (The Jam, The Redskins, Billy Bragg and the rest of Red Wedge).

Oh yes, Billy Bragg, that well known "voice of youth"...

KH,

Maggie Thatcher was an evil ***** bent on on turning back the hands of time a century or so

Oh, how informative...

[TCO]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison


Oh piss off GP, I suppose you know all about what she has done for this country and how she angered millions and millions, and shafted them. Unless you have a clue what you are on about, get lost

Lub you too, baby.

[Adam Smith]

Baroness Thatcher was an embarrassing throwback to an earlier time, kept in power by:

1. The man on the streets need for a bully to 'keep all them damn foreigners in line'

I was in London in 1985 and saw a billboard in West Ham. It had swarthy, dirty looking foreigners in undershirts with flies buzzing about them, driving truckloads of cheap citrus fruit into England. The advertisement was paid for by Labor. I conclude from this that it was Labor playing the xenophobia card at the time. Comments?

[Provost Harrison]

Iain, Michael Foot is an interesting one. I don't know how he would have done running the country but apparently, his looks were quite deceptive as he was supposed to be a very intelligent man who could have potentially done a good job running the country. Of course this is mere speculation though.

But all this talk of Thatcher and Kinnock reminds me of Spitting Image. Why oh why did they axe it? Probably because it wasn't suitable for Blairs age of political correctness, although I think it did leaps and bounds towards exposing the real politics of this country

[Bereta_Eder]

tell me true tell me why was Jesus crucified
is it for this that daddy died?
was it for you? was it me?
did i watch too much t.v.?
is that a hint of accusation in your eyes?
if it wasn't for the nips
being so good at building ships
the yards would still be open on the clyde
and it can't be much fun for them
beneath the rising sun
with all their kids committing suicide
what have we done maggie what have we done
what have we done to england
should we shout should we scream
'what happened to the post war dream?'
oh maggie maggie what have we done?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Dinodoc-

Iain's answer outlines the nuts and bolts of Poll Tax, but the reality went much deeper. It replaced Council rates, by which people paid a charge loosely based on the value of their property to fund local governmental expenditure.

Thatcher's opinion on this was predictable. Why should people pay more just because they happen to live in large, comfortable homes?

So Poll Tax was dreamed up. Like all of Thatcher's policies it had a certain brutal logic to it. Every local authority had to meet it's expenses through a charge on individual, not on property. Every wage earner paid the same in that local area. Under Thatcherite logic, that's fair.

The first sting in the tail was that local authorities with greater problems such as decaying infratstructures, crumbling buildings, social problems, inevitably had bigger bills. That meant that people living in poor Urban areas paid bills that could be (and were) three times the size of those paid by those living in rich, leafy suburbs, or affluent inner-city wards in the groovy bits of London. That fitted in nicely with Thatcherism in general- the rich get richer while the poor get poorer.

The second sting in the tail was that every adult paid something. Even if you had no income otherthan state benefits, you still paid 20% of the bill. Even if you were a student. Even if you were an old-age pensioner on £3000 a year in state pension, you still paid. It wasn't deducted from your benefits, either. You had to physically collect your benefits from the local DHSS Stalag, then physically pay a chunk back. It defies every logic except Thatcherite logic, where it was the principle of everyone paying (even the dole-scum that Thatcher just loathed) that was important. It was an imperious gesture aimed at the underclasses. "You shall pay even if you have no money".

The third sting in the tail was that the only way to avoid paying was to "disappear". If you could not, or would not, pay your only alternative was to disappear from the electoral register. Many did- which meant they were disenfranchised and became "non-persons". Naturally, the areas in which this happened the most were in the poorest areas with the highest bills- which are the areas where the Tories had least support. Poll Tax had the effect (which couldn't have escaped Thatcher) that it would reduce the number of Labour votes at the next election.

The final insult? Best summed up in the Julian Cope in his poll tax song "Leperskin", in which he states "The man in Lambeth Palace pays the same rate as a man who owns a flat in Acre Lane".

It was the crowning glory of Thatcherite logic. However it all went horribly wrong. When it was introduced there was widespread rioting by normally law-abiding people. I take great pride in the fact that I was a rioter myself (fortunately there were no CCTV cameras in those days to record who assisted in a break-in to a certain council office. Through the picture widows. With a concrete bollard). It destroyed Thatcher's support and she was booted out of office as a direct result.

That's one of the bigger reasons why she is so hated in Britain.