Extend the Age of Sail

[Lancer]

In Civ 2 I could sometimes build a frigate and by the time it got where it was going it would be facing ironclads or even destroyers, and this when I'm #1 in sci!

Lets not give an era that is as exciting as the modern one (to many folks), the age of exploration, short shrift.

Extend the game time of this great and glorious era!

[marcuspeddle]

I wonder if it would be possible to have the number of turns per age adjustable by the user? That would be great because I like the pre-modern eras more than the modern era. Also, like it was said, by the time an army travels any distance to attack a city it's outdated and defeated with no trouble.

[Grumbold]

One of the things that appealed about CtP2 was that the much larger number of turns enabled the pre-modern eras to be more fully explored. I will be delighted if Civ 3 can reproduce this effect while keeping games where war is not so prevalent still feeling smooth and well paced. The danger will be adding another 100 turns of adjusting construction queues and clicking 'end turn' if the human player isn't in the mood to invade anybody.

[Lancer]

Anatolia, Grumbold, I think you guys hit on something. The aspect of both your posts that is really key is how fast time passes. When we're having fun in an age, we want time to pass slowly. If it's just managing cities and hitting end turn, well then we wish we could speed things along. So how about a game turn duration control? If we could double the amount of time that passes during slow times, and halve it during interesting times, then the game would be much more interesting overall. When waiting for things to build the wait would be shorter. When moving forces during wartime, the conflict, and the strategy aspects would be expanded.

Perhaps a peacetime turn duration and a wartime one? Make the whole thing automatic. That way, people who use multiplayer won't get involved in disagreements about what game speed to select.

What do you guys think? Anyone?

[tniem]

Lancer, I like your idea, but have one question.

Isn't this going to slow down research and how fast you go to the next age?

I mean, you like the Age of Sail so you make the turns so that their are more turns during this time. But during the ancient period you eliminate turns. Now what about all the lost production and research during these turns? How will you ever advance to the Age of Sails?

[airdrik]

I agree, if you make the 'time' pass faster, that will only mean that you can make it to future techs by bc 2.
If you could make it so that x turns pass per time you say end turn, that would be something else, and more on the lines of what you say. Of course, units still get the same number of moves per active turn(ie. an armor gets 3 moves if you have it set to 4 turns per active turn, 3 moves for 1 turn per active turn and 3 moves for 1/4 turn per active turn).

Production, science, trade, etc. is calculated proportionally to the time per active turn.

That way you can enjoy tearing your opponents appart in times of war, and quickly skip past times of development.

[Shadowstrike]

Its sad how the Age of Discovery goes by in nearly an eyeblink..... everything goes by so fast.... there shuld be more trechnologies, and more turns, to live out the different ages more fully. Maybe a change of interface every age (just the background, like in Starcraft) with a futuristic background to the interface during the modern/postmodern era, mechanical parts durning the Industrial age and so forth.

[Lancer]

tniem, lets say that in the ancient time there is something you are building that costs 30 shields. If you are interested in the ancient time, or it's wartime (however it's done) and time is passing slowly, then it might take city X three turns to produce the item. If it's a less interesting time, or peace time, then it would lake the city 2 turns to produce it. So, does city X have a production capacity of 10 or 15? Both! This is so because production is a function of a cities ability to produce divided by time. So it is with research. The date at which tech arrives wouldn't change a bit.

airdrik, did the above help at all?

Shadowstrike, I did something once that you might want to try. In the Civ 2 book it tells you how to add sciences into the game. Well, I added the available blank sci in between the Napleonic type sci and the industrial sci. I then added some of the future tech as well, and made it so that ironclads, when they eventually came in, had the atribute of triremes, had to stay in close to shore. I made em slow too...two movement. Sadly, eventaully the game corrupted and I had to erase and reload it. Haven't implemented those changes again since. I should though...

I actually hate it too whem the AI crashes their ships into my port cities in the Napoleon scn. Grrr

[tniem]

quote: Originally posted by Lancer on 02-01-2001 08:00 PM tniem, lets say that in the ancient time there is something you are building that costs 30 shields. If you are interested in the ancient time, or it's wartime (however it's done) and time is passing slowly, then it might take city X three turns to produce the item. If it's a less interesting time, or peace time, then it would lake the city 2 turns to produce it. So, does city X have a production capacity of 10 or 15? Both! This is so because production is a function of a cities ability to produce divided by time. So it is with research. The date at which tech arrives wouldn't change a bit.

Lancer,

This will not make you play the desired age for any longer period of time. Yes it will seem longer because you are playing more turns. And yes, you will have more time to think.

But for this to work, everything must be sped up and slowed down at the same rate including movement. The end result is that you might play 100 turns during the Renaissance but the pieces you moved and the techs you researched equate to 10 normal turns. You have just wasted your time because everything must be slowed down to balance the game.

This seems like a very artificial solution to a problem that could be fixed by simply having the amount of years in a turn change sooner, allowing more turns/techs/units during the middle ages.

[Lancer]

tniem, actually the units could still move the same distance with more turns, strangly enough. Try sailing a frigate around a large map in Civ 2. It will take for frigging ever in game years to do it, yet in reality it could be done in a year-year and a half. Movement of units is tied to one thing in Civ 2. Not time, not distance. Units move according to tactical considerations. If you increase the amount of turns you don't change tactical expediency.

[Theben]

quote: Originally posted by Lancer on 02-01-2001 08:00 PM I then added some of the future tech as well, and made it so that ironclads, when they eventually came in, had the atribute of triremes, had to stay in close to shore. I made em slow too...two movement.

Just because the well-known ones sank in storms out at sea... I admit I thought about doing that as well. Actually I thought about changing all non-modern ships to have the trieme 'ability' (curse) since they did have a habit of getting lost at sea. I disagree about the slow move though...I think all ships should be faster. Unfortunately that unbalances them due to their multiple-strike capability.

About the main question, I dunno. Maybe allow the player to drop into a sub-game when conflict starts, and during peaceful times (for the player) the game progresses quickly, cities build faster, and units move farther. Not sure how they could handle this in MP if everyone's always fighting.

[Lancer]

Theben, I based my slowing of the ironclads on the need to constantly stay within range of coaling stations. However you may be right, the wind could be very fickle for the sailing ships.
It was very enjoyable to have the age of sail for an extended period of time, though as I said, the IA hasn't a clue and crashes ships into ports. That made it kind of pointless. Maybe that's why I don't go and set it up again. I wish they would implement both generals (to combine armies under), and also admirials, for fleets. Might help to keep the AI from throwing away its ships piecemeal. What fun it would be to have a broadside to broadside fleet action thundering along.

[Theben]

FYI, my mod pushed transports back until refining, and I've been thinking of pushing back the ironclads until industrialization. In addition, Metallurgy and Magnetism are set up so that they arrive earlier, before musketeer units (i.e., like the fascist mod, somewhat). That would extend your age of sail. Unfortunately, I do not have too many slots left and little personal knowledge of what extra units would improve both the early and late eras of sailing.

[Roman]

I think there should indeed be more turns in a civ III game than in a civ II one and this should extend all eras, but the tech tree also ought to be denser to fill this increased amount of turns.

I like sail, too, and have experimented (I love rules.txt) with ship movement rates more than double the original rates. To lessen the impact of moving units that quickly a cut back the number of holds to half the original. It works well, IMO.

I do agree that the tech tree is too sparse in the Age of Discovery.

[Lancer]

First I'd like t say Hi! to don Don, a old friend that I didn't know still posted. Have you been around and I didn't see you don Don, or are you back? Either way, a real pleasure...

Theben, those sound like really good ideas. Has anyone ever done anything to stop the ships from throwing themselves away against ports? I suppose bombard will help in Civ3.

Roman, definatly, add time, add sci. The early carvel might have looked something like a ship of the line, but... Consider that to make a mast big enough to carry the sails of one of the great 'liners' that many trees needed to be used and that to endure the varying stresses they had to be cut and pieced together like a puzzle. The knowledge of how to fit that puzzle together could be considered one of the sci's required to build a line of battle ship.

don Don, I'll give that a try if I ever get back into rules txt in a big way. Maybe I should, what the heck.

Shadowstrike, yes, or if the age of sail, and sword & musket, is made as long and full as it actually was, then rushing through it would be impossible. As Civ 2 is now, I've had long enough durations of peace in many games to be able to replace my phalanx city defenders with riflemen. So, one of the times of greatest conflict is just completely eliminated for the sake of rushing the game into the modern age. I'd like to see this time of exploration made as rich in game history as it is in history itself.

Something that can't be rushed through.

[Shadowstrike]

Yeah, sometimes I like to change the rules around a bit to increase the length of certain ages.... but the downside was that the notion to rush to the modern age to cremate your opponents still existed.... I'm think of creating age specific modpacks sometime in the future...

[Straybow]

Howdy, Lancer! I haven't been around for a while. Partly burned out doing the List, pursuing other interests mostly. As you can see, I also decided on a change of nickname. My nod to Apolyton's Greek heritage, my historical curiosity, and a play on words.

Back from the Philipines? If so, how long?

I usually play with my Paul Revere mod to rules.txt: add one to land movement, double sea movement. ("One if by land, two if by sea!") ;-D Move Steam Engine and Ironclad a little later, too.

[Lord Spam]

I think several people have mentioned the AI's tendancy to rush towards the Modern Age (which was somewhat dependant on the particular Civ in past games.) Wouldn't it also make sense to tame the advancement AI a bit depending on how the player is progressing in the game?

This is done somewhat in Civ II by gauging how far the player has gotten, but could be tempered by more pre-requisites. Perhaps it could take extra shields to produce the first unit gained by getting a new tech and make it harder for the more advanced units.

I wonder how much can be done to extend the playtime of the various 'ages' by just adding techs, adding more prerequisites.

It'd be nice for the game to allow the player to spend more time in the ancient era , but play at Deity level, or at least Emperor without rushing headlong into the space age in the 1600s (not that it couldn't have, but we had a few cultural disasters on the way.) Hopefully adding events like disasters, rise and fall of empires, etc should help prevent this from happening.

[Lancer]

don Don, well, I've never been an advocate of name changes myself. After enough of them it makes it difficult to know who the heck everyone is. Identities built up over time just vanish as good old names like don Don that one can relate to become that new guy 'Straybow'.
Anyway, that aside, it's nice to know you're still around.

LS, yes, I'm all for slowing the race towards modern times and modern tech, but not only on the part of the AI, but us too. Getting there is more than half the fun, or should be. Why the rush? That's the question we're asking, yes?

[Theben]

quote: Originally posted by Lancer on 02-02-2001 09:49 PM It was very enjoyable to have the age of sail for an extended period of time, though as I said, the AI hasn't a clue and crashes ships into ports.

Another thing I did was remove destroyers entirely (assumed to be the escort/scouts of larger fleets) and replace them with, uh, you know, those ships after ironclads but before turn of the century cruisers and battleships, which AFAIK are called ironclads, steamships, &/or battleships depending (I call them Steam Frigates; what the heck are they called, anyway?!). I also upped the strength of post-caravel warships. That means in the modern era the AI, instead of building a horde of 4-4-6 destroyers, now builds 8-8-5 cruisers. They don't seem to build as many tho'; I don't know if that's because of some programming or because I've gotten a lot better.

"Straybow"?!? To each his own. I like being known when I'm here. Besides, there are plenty of people willing to change my name for me!

[The Commodore]

Drednoughts.

One nice thing about SMAC is the slow,gentle pace it goes at.Personaly,I prefer the time with destroyers, but no fighters or subs...this is a good idea.