Fine-Tune, Tweak, Polish: A Prayer for Civ3

yin26 · February 6, 2001, 05:56

Dear Firaxis,

At this point in Civ3's development, perhaps the single most important thing to be done is fine-tuning, tweaking, and polishing this baby. Assuming Civ3 is still one year out, I'm guessing you could have a solid 4 major in-house / beta patch cycles. That could make all the difference. A sikly-smooth, highly-polished Civ3 is the surest way to wipe any competition off the market.

If this means dropping some nifty enhancements to Civ3, so be it. I know I have argued against a Civ2.5, but a highly polished Civ2.5 (or 2.75

) will be FAR BETTER than an unstable, akward Civ3. (Of course the brass ring is the highly polished Civ3, so no hate mail from people thinking I'm against that effort, please...).

Also, if an open beta is off the table, PLEASE ADD MARKOS AND DAN TO YOUR BETA TEAM! While I might not always agree with them, I trust them implicitly to speak for all of us here at Apolyton.

Having said that, I have immense faith in Sid. He has earned it, afterall. But I just think it would be so sad and silly if some bugs, imbalances or interface problems poke holes in what should clearly be the best TBS game ever made.

Henrik · February 6, 2001, 16:34

I agree, let our (apolyton's) beloved leaders test it

DaveV · February 6, 2001, 17:40

quote:

Originally posted by Henrik on 02-06-2001 03:34 PM
I agree, let our (apolyton's) beloved leaders test it

I respectfully disagree. Dan and Mark have a great website, but that doesn't make them the best beta testers. In fact, the time they spend on Apolyton would necessarily decrease their testing time. Firaxis would be smart to grab the best people from the scenario creation forums, the strategy forums, and the multiplayer forums. Each person could attack the game from his own perspective. To cite one individual, Xin Yu has found more bugs and tricks than anyone else I've encountered. I've been hanging around on the Civ 2 forums for a long time, and I could name a bunch of people who would give Civ 3 a good working over. And false modesty doesn't prevent me from volunteering my own name as one of those...

Ralf · February 6, 2001, 18:31

quote:

Originally posted by DaveV on 02-06-2001 04:40 PM
I respectfully disagree. Dan and Mark have a great website, but that doesn't make them the best beta testers. In fact, the time they spend on Apolyton would necessarily decrease their testing time. Firaxis would be smart to grab the best people from the scenario creation forums, the strategy forums, and the multiplayer forums. Each person could attack the game from his own perspective.

DaveV have a point. I agree with above.

I also think that Firaxis have a reasonably good idea of who they can accept for beta-testing themselves. Dan Mahaga quote: "A lot of people here regularly read the forums at Apolyton on a daily basis".

Steve Clark · February 6, 2001, 18:35

quote:

Originally posted by DaveV on 02-06-2001 04:40 PM
I respectfully disagree. Dan and Mark have a great website, but that doesn't make them the best beta testers. In fact, the time they spend on Apolyton would necessarily decrease their testing time. Firaxis would be smart to grab the best people from the scenario creation forums, the strategy forums, and the multiplayer forums. Each person could attack the game from his own perspective. To cite one individual, Xin Yu has found more bugs and tricks than anyone else I've encountered. I've been hanging around on the Civ 2 forums for a long time, and I could name a bunch of people who would give Civ 3 a good working over. And false modesty doesn't prevent me from volunteering my own name as one of those...

Perfectly said, Dave, especially the part about "the best people from the scenario creation forums, the strategy forums, and the multiplayer forums". Those are three most important part of Civ3 (scenarios, AI and MP), everything else is just superflous.

Besides, there are too many SMAC and CtP freaks here that would sway Civ3 to their bad ideas. j/k

yin26 · February 6, 2001, 19:40

I agree adding some of the scenario and mod people (as well as people from sections of The List that seem most pertinent) would be great, but the fact of the matter as I see it is that Dan and Markos have built a trust with Firaxis.

...and if I know Firaxis, unless they go with a public beta (or how about a fansite beta?), trust will be highest on their list. Of course, if Dan and Markos could bring a few people in on it with them, then that's even better.

For despite the fact that they run this site and like CtP2, these guys would make a LOT of time to test Civ3. Their experience with CtP2 would actually be helpful, and the site would not be affected. I'd rather AT LEAST have those guys involved than nobody from Apolyton at all.

korn469 · February 7, 2001, 00:22

Well as long as we are proposing people to get their hands on a beta copy of civ3 i suggest you Yin!

ever since back at the old owo forums you have been raising hell on firaxis (back in the good old days when they were about to ban yin for being a thorn in their side) always urging them to make their products as bug free as possible

also you have over seen the list project and been a forum staple for years now...i really think that you would work hard to make civ3 what all of us crackheads over at apolyton would want

so if it ever comes to a vote you have mine

korn469

yin26 · February 7, 2001, 00:51

Korn,

First, many thanks for that very nice note of support. However, I understand perfectly that Firaxis might well have written me off for past events. I will still continue to help with bug-lists and that sort of thing, and most certainly if Firaxis asked me to get involved in a beta, I'd work my butt off every breathing moment helping out (well, I'd have to sleep, earn a paycheck, and tuck my 2-year old daughter to bed, but aside from that).

Like I said, though, I might have painted myself into a corner as the "thorn in the side" type they might not want to deal with on a beta. Too bad, but understandable.

For the record, I have been taking a much more productive approach to all these issues since SMAC v4.0. All I really want, as with the rest of us, is an awesome, VERY stable Civ3. This thread is dedicated to asking that as much is done as possible BEFORE release to make sure that happens.

Thanks again, Korn, but if I were a betting man, the odds of my being asked on for the beta are somewhere between "Don't make me laugh!" and "Has hell frozen over?"

Henrik · February 7, 2001, 03:00

Acually you've convinced me

.
Let the best players/designers test it.
I didn't give my other post a lot of thought I guess...

Jeje2 · February 7, 2001, 04:49

quote:

Originally posted by korn469 on 02-06-2001 11:22 PM
Well as long as we are proposing people to get their hands on a beta copy of civ3 i suggest you Yin!

Well, have to disagree.
If we let Yin be a betatester and there still are any bugs in the final version. Who would kick firaxis staff in the ass then? Not Yin, he would be so embaressed that he'd be hiding.

OK, that was just kidding. Of course Yin would be an excellent tester, if Firaxis will accept persons outside USA
[This message has been edited by Jeje2 (edited February 07, 2001).]

The Viceroy · February 7, 2001, 05:05

I agree that Apolyton should get involved with beta testing, but it should be completely by stealth .. and the people who are chosen should keep it to themselves .. Firaxis are a company at the end of the day, and as much as we would like them to be in existance to make CIV games, they are actually in it for money .. and I think we all agree.. A good CIV game = lots of money

Thats why I believe they can only have beta testers who won't spill the beans .. especially when its a beta version .. as still much can be giggled about ..

I suggest that if we are to be involved, it needs to be trusted members .. and members who have a lot of experience in CIV .. and enjoy different aspects of the game.. then we should test it, release no comments but to Firaxis, and wait for the release ..

That is why although Markos & Dan may not represent the pinicle of Civ playing(sorry lads

), they are more likely to be involved .. as they can be trusted.

------------------
"Wherever wood floats, you will find the British" . Napoleon

yin26 · February 7, 2001, 05:51

Yes, I agree that if the beta is to be closed, then Markos and Dan (and perhaps a few others?) would do an excellent job of doing things "by the book" while doing their absolute best to represent their years of experience listening to the Civ crowd. I think they might already be involved...I hope so anyway.

quote:

Well, have to disagree. If we let Yin be a betatester and there still are any bugs in the final version. Who would kick firaxis staff in the ass then? Not Yin, he would be so embaressed that he'd be hiding.

Wow. No comment.

quote:

Of course Yin would be an excellent tester, if Firaxis will accept persons outside USA.

The first part is in doubt...but the second part is pretty clear. Think I could slip in my U.S. address?

DaveV · February 7, 2001, 08:33

Good points on the trust issue, although nobody has mentioned what I would see as Firaxis's main concern. Since a beta is essentially a finished product, my nightmare as a software developer would be that the beta finds its way to a warez site. I agree that this would be a strong argument against a wide release.

That said, the ideal beta tester is someone who will find lots of bugs and typos in the program and report them clearly to the software team. Mark and Dan certainly qualify on computer knowledge and communication skills, but I'm not convinced they will try all the strange tricks that more experienced and devious players will find. There is a lot of technique in testing software - a beta tester is trying to break the game, not trying to play it for enjoyment. As someone with hopes of having the best possible Civ 3, I want the beta testers to push the program to its limits.

yin26 · February 7, 2001, 09:26

Good points, Dave. Which is once again why I think Dan and Markos are clearly our best bet. I can guarantee you as a FACT that they would NEVER release the beta to Warez. NEVER EVER NEVER

They have invested immense amounts of personal time and money to this site, afterall. The results speak for themselves. Even just a cursory glance shows that this one site has done more for Civ than any other site in existence.

You want mods? You get 'em here. You want patches? Get 'em here. You want the most active forums, including possibly the wildest holding pin called OT? It's here. Oh, a 500 page suggestion list? HERE!

Those two guys have made that community possible. And I promise you if they got their hands on the beta, they'd try everything in the world to break it, push and find problems. Sure, they might not be star players, but they are analytical, technical and acutely aware of how bugs and design issues can make or break public opinion.

Sign 'em up!

DaveV · February 7, 2001, 09:49

The more I think about it, yin, the more I have to agree with you. Looking at it from Firaxis's perspective, they have little to gain by giving the beta to some unknown (to them) Apolytoner, who may turn around and pass the program on to six of his buddies.

Again, nothing against Mark and Dan, but it's a shame. I see the beta phase as the last best chance to eliminate some of the irritating bugs that have plagued Civ 2, before the Civ 3 team is reassigned to Sid's Next Big Project. I would love to see as many bugs as possible found when they still have a chance to be fixed, rather than after the program has been released for a month.

Bkeela · February 7, 2001, 11:36

I take it back. If you don't have anything nice to say Bkeela, don't say anything at all.

Bkeela.
[This message has been edited by Bkeela (edited February 07, 2001).]

Aredhran · February 7, 2001, 12:10

I think that what they need for their beta testing team, in addition to the usual round of TBS experts and avid Civ fans, are people new to the genre, or at least unused to the interface.

One of the most annoying things for me, is to have a potentially great game, but one that I can't be bothered to play because the UI is so crappy it makes me wonder if it has been tested at all. (example: Shogun - Total War)

That's what you get when the only people who have been testing the game are the ones who wrote it, or people who are such fans, or have played the game so much that they overlook ease of use and good UI design because they're too excited about a new toy.

Aredhran

Ralf · February 7, 2001, 14:36

YIN26, first quote:
"At this point in Civ3's development, perhaps the single most important thing to be done is fine-tuning, tweaking, and polishing this baby. Assuming Civ3 is still one year out, I'm guessing you could have a solid 4 major in-house / beta patch cycles. That could make all the difference. A sikly-smooth, highly-polished Civ3 is the surest way to wipe any competition off the market."

YIN26, second quote:
"Yes, I agree that if the beta is to be closed, then Markos and Dan (and perhaps a few others?) would do an excellent job of doing things "by the book" while doing their absolute best to represent their years of experience listening to the Civ crowd."

I really can sympathize with your first quote, Yin26! A "silkly-smooth, highly-polished Civ-3" anyone?

What I dont understand however is the supposed connection with the second quote.

What you are suggesting is basically a standard of-the-shelf closed beta-testing of a commercial game. Something that every game-developer in the industry already does, and something that Firaxis also did with the Alpha Centauri game. The only difference seems to be that you want them to "add Markos and Dan to your beta team".
Now, I have absolutely nothing against that they add some Apolyton-members to their beta-testing team (although I am sure that they can find more Apolyton-candidates to choose from, then just Markos & Dan). What I dont understand however, is how adding 3-5 Apolyton beta-testers, would be the equivalent of "a solid 4 major in-house / beta patch cycles. That could make all the difference."

Isnt it reasonable to think that the SMAC beta-testers where just as 100% dedicated? Despite this, Firaxis had to release no less then four game-patches, until fans (and perhaps also Firaxis) was reasonably satisfied.
These patch-requests, by the way, came from thousends of fans - many of them with strikingly different playing-styles, played on hugely varied & different hardware/software-combinations. And the bugs themselves originated from hundreds and hundreds of different/unique game-situations.
How, can above possibly be nullified just by adding 3-5 apolyton-members to the beta-testing team? The truth is that it simply cannot. Firaxis have really only two beta-testing options to choose from. Either...

1: Traditional closed beta-testing = A reasonably playable game, that can be much smother & more stable with the help of some additional game-patches.

2: Open/semi-open beta-testing = A more smother/stable game already from the first day of the game-release.

Ok then - maybe a fully open beta-testing of Civ-3 is unrealistic because of the reasons mentioned in previous posts. But, that also means that any ideas of releasing a game with the complexity of Civ-3, without the need of any additional game-pathes - is also unrealistic.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited February 07, 2001).]

yin26 · February 7, 2001, 19:07

Ralf,

First, an Alpha test might even be a better term for what I'm thinking, but I'm assuming Civ3 is far enough down the line to call it a Beta test...even if it won't be out for a year.

Of course I want a MUCH larger effort paid to these issues, including broadly expanding the base of testers. It's not like I'm saying, "Adding Markos and Dan to your team will fix everything." I've inquired about an open beta on more than one occasion, but it looks like it won't happen.

So I'm saying, 1) Please start the testing NOW, even if that means cutting short some new ideas. Then invest the saved time and money in tweaking and polishing. Oh, I'm sure some testing automatically occurs as the game is programmed, but that's not we're talking about. Some of SMAC's nastiest bugs/issues weren't apparent on the surface.

And from what I know about SMAC, not much of their feedback (on bigger issues anyway) could be addressed with the time and staff that was available. I know this from actually speaking with them. They mentioned the color, several bugs, etc., and I have respect for the work they did in pointing out virtually ALL of the issues that caused patches to have to be released. I'm sure that same group would do an outstanding job on Civ3, but we might have the same result. This concerns me.

Keep in mind, too, that Jeff Morris was a "one man QA department" and you've got the picture. Assuming he still is, what's going to happen? He's only human, and what feedback he DOES get from testers might have to be very selectively considered.

This is true of ANY beta test, I realize...you can't redesign the game, of course, but the SMAC patch process took several months after release to complete. So at least leave that much more time in the development process to address those kinds of issues BEFORE release this time around.

And 2) I don't think an open beta will happen. It's not Firaxis tradition. Last I heard, the number of testers will double from what was on SMAC. Of course this is good, but I'd just REALLY like to have Dan and Markos involved if it's going to be a closed beta. I trust them to do a great job.

But what will they bring to the task that the other beta testers won't? Perhaps nothing...perhaps a great deal. I will say, though, that they have a tremendous awareness of public opinion and have seen first-hand patch issues and so forth. And I also think Firaxis will trust them for that...

Bottom Line: LET'S NOT MAKE CIV3 ANOTHER "PATCH A PATCH" MELODRAMA! If that requires a public or much expanded closed-beta, great. If that means cutting out some features to focus on this stuff, great.

Roman · February 8, 2001, 06:50

While I don't want the game to be buggy, I fully understand that however much they test it some bugs will stay. That is fine by me as long as they then carry on to provide support for the game and release patches to fix the bugs.
Of course, they should try to catch as many bugs as possible before releasing the game, but I fear this is not possible to do efficiently.

MOHonor · February 10, 2001, 20:04

http://www.an.i-dentity.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/013414.html

Biddles · February 10, 2001, 22:31

One thing everyone one here has neglected: where do Markos and Dan's loyalties lie. I'm not saying they're going to get to a warez site, what I'm saying is "are they dedicated to the site or to firaxis". (Well I think the answer's pretty clear). Firaxis have been holding their cards pretty close to their chest, if Dan and Markos see the game features are they going to report it on apolyton or are the going to keep quite. What do firaxis want at the point of the beta test: secrecy for a showstopping surprise, or get us all hyped up for the game.