The Big,Big,Big List of Wonders

[CornMaster]

You got some pretty cool ideas there Darkcloud. Only 2 comments.
1. When a Civ would be able to build the internet and get other techs it seems like there wouldn't be much left to get.
2. And I hope the "triemmes have unlimited movement" for the light house it a typo. That is totally unrealistic.
But otherwise a very nice collection!!!

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"I'm too out of shape for a long fight so I'll have to kill you fast"
Administrator of the CornEmpire Forum
My Civ 2 Scenario Page.

I have to disagree with you completely on some of your choices. Especially the logical thinking behind them. Just a note: There are supposed to be seven wonders in each era. Anyway:

Temple of Zeus

Way too powerful. Potential game-breaker early in the game. Also, there is historically no "Temple of Zeus" wonder. I assume you mean the Statue of Zeus at olympia, one of the classical seven wonders.

Oracle

How will this work? In what way is a person more valid a wonder than your deleted list above?

Stonehenge

Again too powerful and not one of the classical wonders. As well as being pre-civ-timespan. Unless they extend it backwards to cover the stone age, I doubt this will be included.

Serpent Mound

Not a classical wonder. Where is (a) The Mausoleum at Helikarnassos, (b) The Colossus of Rhodos, (c) The Temple of Artemis, and (d) The Lighthouse at Faros? Sure, it's down below, but it's definately more of a classical wonder.

Sun-Tzu's war academy

Never existed. What makes it more valid than, say, Newton's College?

Hadrian's Wall

Let's face it, not a ground-breaking wonder. Rome did much bigger things.

King Richard's Crusade

Was not a wonder, it was bloody genocide.

J.S. Bach's Cathedral

Never existed. Or he had many.

Mozart's symphony

Which one? As well as being too powerful, this is not a "proper" wonder either.

Gold Rush

About as far as you can get from a wonder, really. And it's again overpowered. And the effects are quite the opposite to what happened.

Hoover Dam and Statue of Liberty

Enlightenment wonders? You gotta be kidding me?

Ford Motor Corporation

A wonder? There is already the "Mass production" technology... And this, too, is too powerful.

E=Mc^2

A wonder? Surely the General Theory of relativity was much more important? And again not a "proper" wonder.

The Bridges

Not that important, I'd say, as historical, world-renowned buildings.

SETI Program

Not a wonder, a bloody waste of money.

CN Tower

The world's highest building for, what, ten years before that Singapore one took over?

The Internet

Is surely not national. And why have a duplicate wonder?

Sydney Opera House + EU

Important modern wonders? Hardly.

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All of your deletions are bad, except possibly Adam Smith's Trading Company and Newton's College, two relatively minor institutions.

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Some nice ideas, though. I like the effect of the Hadrianus Wall, and the inclusion of the Transsiberian railway.

[DarkCloud]

Yes the unlimited movement was a typo.

I could not find 7 wonders for each.

There WAS a Temple of Zeus and in it was the Statue of Zeus, one of teh 7 wonders of the ancient world.

The Oracle was both a person and a place, it would warn you when the computer would attack you next turn.

Stonehenge and Zeus are not too powerful.

The Colossus did nothing.

The mausoleum should be there but what would it do?

The lighthouse is there now, I flipped Serpent Mound and it.

Sun Tzu's stays.

Richard's crusade should have not been included in my list, sorry, another typo.

J.S. Bach performed in many cathedrals... It stands for that.

Well, I need something to replace Mozart's Symphony, any suggestions???

Well, the Statue of Liberty was built before the Industrial Age. Hoover should be moved however.

Ford stays, as does E=Mc2, the bridges, and the SETI Program: It is independent of government funds.

WHAT! The Internet is national. Roughly all countries have it. This is assuming one country patents the idea and it proliferates ideas.

Sydney and the EU stay.

My deletions stay.

-
Thank you for your corrections and praise.

SETI-Project: The typical dud-wonder.

I’m of the opinion too that Civ3 needs by far more wonders, but then: make them a bit less powerful (I hate the so extremely powerful effect of Hoover-Dam) and make a 2-wonders/ city restriction. I generally have 3-4 cities with all the wonders inside.

I’ve seen a very, very large list of wonders in the long Apolyton wish-list for FIRAXIS.
Although I don’t like some of them it’s maybe more constructive to discuss a complete wonders-compilation on the base of those suggestions.

[Ribannah]

Ok, here are a few more:

The 10 Commandments (monotheism)
- increases the speed of terrain improvement

The Red Cross (pharmaceutics)
- counts as a hospital in each city

The OPEC (refining)
- increases trade arrows from deserts and tundras (until Environmentalism)

Scotland Yard (automobile)
- replaces Women's Suffrage, same effect (wow, same idea as Shadowstrike )

Kruger National Park (ecology)
- increase happiness and reduces pollution

The Rainbow Warrior (ecology)
- a fleet of ships, able to block ocean cities' trade routes; attacking them is an atrocity

Biosphere 2 (environmentalism)
- counts as a biosphere (increases max pop) in every space colony

Camelot (chivalry)
- reduces the production costs of mounted units

Woodstock (telecommunication)
- all attainable techs will be available, instead of
the usual selection

Contraception (pharmaceutics)
- changes growth from "we love" days into an extra trade arrow

The Internet should simply replace SETI (same effect).

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire
[This message has been edited by Ribannah (edited September 17, 2000).]

[Dienstag]

Nit-picker's note: If The Goldrush increases treasury by 10% each turn, that means your treasury almost DOUBLES every 7 turns (isn't math great?). In 100 years you will have about 13,780 times as much money as you started with. If nothing else, this wonder would have to expire VERY fast, although I agree with The Call of Snapcase that The Goldrush just shouldn't be a wonder.

[Dienstag]

DarkCloud, are you by any chance from Sydney?

[DarkCloud]

1.Get rid of Darwins Voyage, Womans Suffrage, Adams Smith Trading Co., Newtons College, Leonardo's Workshop for they
are not proper wonders that can be built or are feasable. The Eiffel Tower and Marco Polo's are out as well.

2.ANCIENT WONDERS-
Temple of Zeus- Acts as a temple in each city.
Oracle- If an enemy is going to attack next turn, it notifies you of their attack.
Stonehenge- People work harder in all cities/ +10% Production in all cities.
Pyramids- +10% Luxuries in each city.
Hanging Gardens- Same as before
Great Library- Know any knowledge known to any 2 other civs.
Lighthouse- Trimies have unlimited movement.
Colosseum- +20% happy people in city in the ancient age/ expires with Industrial Revolution
Easter Island Statues (Moai)- "Increase Productivity 10% across all cities"

3.LATER WONDERS-
Sun-Tzu's War Academy- Same as before
Great Wall- Same as before
Hadrians Wall- +50% attack bonus versus barbarians when in any city.
Serpent Mound- Counts as a granary in every city.
Taj Mahal- Courthouse in every city.
The Dome of the Rock: Increases trade by 25% (pilgrims), 5 happy citizens emerge in the city its built in.

4.RENAISSANCE WONDERS-
Copernicus's Observatory- Same as before
The Magna Carter signing: Increases trade output of city (due to greater freedom).
The Globe (Shakespears Theatre)- Same as before
Michelangelos Chapel- Same as before
Kaba- Better conversion ability for Missionaries (if there are missionaries in Civ3)
The VOC- As stated below

5. ENLIGHTENMENT
Mozarts Symphony- +10% in Literacy. +1 Happy in each city.
Gold Rush- Your treasury increases by 10% each turn.
Statue of Liberty- Same as before
Scotland Yard- Shadowstrike's Idea. (see below)
Arch de Triumph- No corruption

6. INDUSTRIAL AGE
Hoover's Dam- Same as before
Ford Motor Co.- +25% Production in all cities.
Yellowstone- All cities produce 10% less pollution.
Sydney Harbor Bridge- All roads over rivers count as railroads.
Golden Gate Bridge- A settler only takes 1 turn to make a bridge. An engineer takes 1/2 a turn.
Empire State Building- +50% Trade in host city.
Transsiberian Railroad- Works Like King Richards Crusade. (Expires with Electronics)
The Hermitage- +2 content citizens per city

7. RECENT AGE
United Nations- Same as before
SETI Program- Same as before
Manhatten Project- Same as before
Apollo Program- Same as before
The Internet- Same as Great Library
European Union- Counts as a stock exchange in all cities.
Red Cross- As per Ribannah's idea.
London Underground- As per Evil Capitalist's idea.
GPS Network- As per Evil Capitalist's idea.
Los Alamos: Generates 1500 beakers or 25% of your total science output, whichever is more.


Thank you everyone for your (many) ideas
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[Imran Siddiqui]

quote: The Oracle was both a person and a place, it would warn you when the computer would attack you next turn.

I think the Oracle is dumb as well... it would be worthless in multiplayer for one..

[UltraSonix]

quote: If The Goldrush increases treasury by 10% each turn, that means your treasury almost DOUBLES every 7 turns (isn't math great?). In 100 years you will have about 13,780 times as much money as you started with...

I think what he meant was the civ's INCOME is boosted 10% (at least that's what I hope he meant...)

And Dienstag, what did you mean by:

quote: DarkCloud, are you by any chance from Sydney?

'Cause us Melbournians no like Sydneysiders...

[Evil Capitalist]

OK
Xerox Labs: Place that invented the transistor, amongst other things. +100% tech in host city

Empire State building: It has such an enduring appeal it has to be a wonder. Trade routes produce +100%

London underground: Mass Transit in every city

Versailles: All cities support one extra unit (2 under monarchy)

If we arn't getting Mr Smith's company then there should be something similar to give a trade advantage to Britain So: St Paul's Cathedral. All financial improvements cost nothing to maintain

GPS network: Plus one movement for ships

Nelson's Column: Plus one movement for ships (Outdates at around computers, allows realistic representation of shift of naval powers)

X planes plan: +1 movement for aircraft (X planes were the first to break the sound barrier in level flight)
[This message has been edited by Evil Capitalist (edited September 18, 2000).]

[Dienstag]

Well, increasing income by 10% is much more reasonable, even though I still don't like the Goldrush wonder. Just build a city next to a Gold resource if you want more money...

I merely noticed that 2 of the proposed wonders are from Sydney, and thought that was a conspicuous increase from it's current total of 0. I'm sure Sydney's a really neat city, maybe even as neat as Melbourne , but it would be nice not to bunch all the wonders up from just a few places.

Evil Capitalist: Your Versailles idea made me have another idea:
There could be wonders that make governments more efficient.
e.g.:
Sun-Pyramid of Teotihuacán: Despotism
Versailles: Monarchy
St. Peter’s Cathedral: Theocracy/ Fundamentalism
The Cultural Revolution: Communism
can’t think of one for Republic right now
Women’s Suffrage: Democracy

…and maybe other wonders could enable better SE-settings: KGB/ CIA for Police, Greenpeace for Ecology etc.


A word to the Gold-Rush Wonder: I agree, that the Gold Rush isn't a proper wonder and the reasons for the Gold-Rush had nothing to do with any tech-advance.
For a gold-rush you simply need:
a) Gold
b) The belief that gold is valuable
c) People that are willing to leave their homes and have the possiblities to leave.
That's it.

[Az]

ok . ok . this is getting real weird . I hate looking at organisations and on Ideas as wonders of the world.

lets face it opec is no wonder of the world .
Sydney opera ??????????? .
and maybe some more . ???????????????
and what that might give ? +music talent for for each city ... damn .... you guys just can't get enough .

EU. ...... blah blah blah . and Alliance is NOT a wonder of the world .


hey well I know I am not being too constructtive here but .... some more stupid wonders :

the Kremlin : gives lots of big red walls everywhere... and another "very" on-topic plus:
all granaries account as ... city walls ... or maybe .... all roads acount as irrigation ... or accounts as a .......... city walls in every city .

the Kursk Submarine :

"hey that's not a WoW , it's a unit ! " damn right .
but a FREAKING BRIDGE also isn't a WoW ! it's a tile improvement .

the white elefant : does nothing . it's just white.

blah
blah
blah. .

I am really sorry for all that anger . It had to come out some day.



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We don't prohibit smoking . We discourage inhaling .

[DarkCloud]

Ten Commandments- why would they increase the speed of terrain improvement?

Red Cross- It will be added to the list. (As an alternative wonder)

OPEC- Not really a wonder.

Scotland Yard- Okay... with reservations...

Kreuger National Park- I have never heard of this place.

The Rainbow Warrior, Biosphere 2, Camelot- Sorry, no.

Woodstock- Why all techs???

Contraception- I'll think about it.

-I'd say it, the internet, should not supplant SETI, but that's just my idea.

-Thank you for your many ideas Ribannah.

The Goldrush should mandatorily run out after 50 or 100 years.

Dienstag- Why do you ask?

Imran- True, it would be horrid in Multiplayer, but in Singleplayer it would be killer.

Xerox- No.

Empire State- Already Listed.

London Underground- I'll add it to the list

Versaiies- Could you please explain this idea more fully?

St. Pauls Cathedral- Infeasable effects.

GPS Network- Good idea.

Nelson's Column- What exactly was this? (I am ignorant)

X Planes- No.

-Thank you Evil Capitalist for your contributions in ideas.

[Dauphin]

Nelson's Column is a statue of Horatio Nelson on top of a column at Trafalgar Square, London.
It isn't a wonder in itself but if you consider it to represent the dawn of British Naval supremacy then it can be. Maybe it could increase naval attack strength.

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud on 09-18-2000 09:28 PM Ten Commandments- why would they increase the speed of terrain improvement?

Obedience ... and the connection with the promised land.

quote: Kruger National Park- I have never heard of this place.

Click here

quote: Woodstock- Why all techs???

The hippy movement had, above all, a great influence on free thought.

[Shadowstrike]

Maybe if you complete destroying an enemy civ, you could recieve a "triumph" which produces a WLTL day in every city fdor a couple of turns and a "Triumph Monument" in your Throne Room or in your capital city.

This monument could vary from civ to civ (i.e. egyptians get an obelisk, the Frech an Arc, etc.)

[DarkCloud]

-Sorry Ribannah, I just dont think the Ten Commandments belong in the game.
And considering Political Correctness, Firaxis probably wouldn't include it
because it insults all non-western religions.
-I'll check Kreuger National Park out, but wouldn't Yellowstone (The first national
park ever) be a better one for this list?
-Sorry, I can't accept the fact that Woodstock should be in this list.

Quote Lines:

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--So you want to be a hero...
--Something wicked this way comes...
--Farenheit 451... Whew that's hot!
--Settler- From NONE, Chieftan- of Peril, Warlord- of Warwick,Wisconsin, Prince- of Persia, Emperor- of Evil, Deity- of too much time on ones hands...

I think some of these are ridiculous without even the functions that they serve. Let's try to keep to monuments that are FEASIBLE TO CONSTRUCT. Some people were having problems with certain things that never actually got the title of wonder, or some landmarks that never existed.

I don't think its really that important whether the stucture really existed, I just think that it should be something that a government could actually construct. But E=MC^2 or the Ten Commandments... these just can't be actually built. And there are others like the EU, Ford, the Cultural Revolution (who'd want to build that one), and OPEC.

I did like things like Stonehenge, Sydney Opera House, Golden Gate Bridge (although maybe Brooklyn Bridge is better since it was really the revolutionary one for its time). The Red Cross was good. Empire State Building (good). Versailles was a great idea too. And I think that the Eiffel Tower should be kept!

Also, the Sun-Pyramid of Teotihuacan... heck, why stop there? Make it Teotihuacan itself! Its all one big wonder in itself.

I have few suggestions of my own...
1.Taj Mahal

2.Arch de Triumph (or however you spell it)

3.The City of Brasilia (really not sure about that one. may should be The City of (insert capital here))

4.The Burial Mounds (of the Mississippi region **hey the native americans have really been getting ripped off in the wonders**)

5.Angkor Wat

6.The Christ Statue (Rio de janeiro) Yet another plug for Brasil? I think so...

I think that there should be many more wonders available in the game, but maybe should just have monument status. Their function is to boost the civilization score in various areas. This way there are not all these wonders that give huge advantages to those who accumulate many of them.

And guys, how about we tone down on the functions of some of these wonders... why don't we just make an "Alien Powers" wonder which gives invincibility, every tech, and a free spaceship??

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"...The highest realization of warfare is to attack the enemy's plans; next is to attack their alliances; next to attack their army; and the lowest is to attack their fortified cities." - Sun Tzu

[Evil Capitalist]

OK- the government specific wonders:

Despotism- Taj Mahal: Courthouse in every city

Monarchy- Versailles: 2 more units supported for free

Theocracy- Chichen Itza: +1 happy citizen/city

Republic- The Forum: -75% corruption

Republic- Arc de Triomphe: No corruption

Communism- Lenin's mausoleum: +10% production

Fascism- Great Arch (Hitler planned to build this): +1 attack for all units

Democracy- Statue of liberty: As WS.

Democracy- Big Ben: +25% on all trade routes

There must be better ones than these- discuss.
[This message has been edited by Evil Capitalist (edited September 21, 2000).]

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud on 09-20-2000 06:41 PM -Sorry Ribannah, I just dont think the Ten Commandments belong in the game. And considering Political Correctness, Firaxis probably wouldn't include it because it insults all non-western religions. -I'll check Kreuger National Park out, but wouldn't Yellowstone (The first national park ever) be a better one for this list? -Sorry, I can't accept the fact that Woodstock should be in this list.

Well, it's your list, so use what you like and discard the rest. I have my own list
I don't think you are right about Firaxis not willing to include a wonder like "The Ten Commandments". After all, they did include Darwin's Voyage in Civ II, and The Oracle, and even King Richard's Crusade!

Yellowstone is of course just as good as Kruger, but Africa doesn't have many wonders at the moment while North America has plenty.

Some more ideas, still thinking about what exactly they should do:

The Hermitage (of St. Petersburg, Enlightenment)
Rubik's Cube (Algorithms)
The VOC ("Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie", Magnetism)
The Odyssey (Polytheism)

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire
[This message has been edited by Ribannah (edited September 21, 2000).]

[Evil Capitalist]

I agree, but one reason for these wonders is to make people stay in older governments beyond their normal game life. While the Kabah is good, I'm not so sure about St Peters, Russia has always been very autocratic.

[DarkCloud]

Yes, the European Union and E=Mc2 should be gone and I will take them out.

Taj Mahal- (Courthouse in every city)
Arch de Triumph- (No corruption)
3,4- No
Angkor Wat- What is this?
The Christ Statue- what should it do?
Chichen Itza- +1 happy citizen per city
The Hermitage- +2 content citizens per city
The VOC- What is this?
Rubik's and the Oddessy-No
Kaba- Better conversion ability for Missionaries (if there are missionaries in Civ3)

Thank you for all your ideas.

Angkor-Vhat: A temple from the 12th century in Angkor, capitol of the Khmer-Empire.

And I still insist: Chichen Itza is a city. Cities are founded by settlers and not built as wonders in other cities (Imagine ab "Athens Wonder")

Evil Capitalist: that's a quite good list I think.
Nevertheless I think Chichen Itza shouldn't be a wonder, it's a city (like Teotihuacan, that's why I made its Sun-Pyramid a wonder).
Other possible wonders for Theocracy: The Kaba,
St. Peter's Cathedral (as I already said). Possible effects:
Kaba-Better conversion ability for Missionaries (if there are missionaries in Civ3)
St. Peter: gives higher tax-income in Theocracies.

[Shadowstrike]

quote: Angkor Wat- What is this?

Angkor Wat is a giant temple hewn of stone in the Cambodian jungle, built by the Khmer people. Its a stunning site, but unfortnately, its being destroyed by looters.

What about: The Dome of the Rock, The Tower Of Babel, Nazca Lines, Los Alamos (sp?) (the place where the nuke was built, contained best equipment and best scientists during WW2)

Los Alamos: Generates 1500 beakers or 25% of your total science output, whichever is more.

The Dome of the Rock: Increases trade by 25% (pilgrims), 5 happy citizens emerge in the city its built in.

Can someone else fill in the other 2?
[This message has been edited by Shadowstrike (edited September 22, 2000).]

[cpp]

Los Alamos: The manhaten project is allready a wonder.

[Stefu]

This is from The List, Wonders section.

Abu Simbel
Admiral Nelson's Fleet: increased ship strength/movement, maybe
Agora (huge market in Mali, possibly, trade bonus; effect: caravans treat all squares as roads, or 6 moves, or travel
over water without ships).
Alaskan Oil Pipeline
Alfred Nobel's Foundation
The Almagest (Ptolemy's Almagest): boost to science
Angel Falls
Angkor Wat
Area 51
Aristotle's Encyclopedia of Knowledge: boost to ancient science, but gradually declines to become a hindrance to
science later on; eventually goes obsolete with Heliocentrism
The Aswan Dam
Aura of Invincibility (morale, police bonus)
The Aztec Temple in Tenochtitlan
Banaue Rice Terraces
The Bay of Fundy
Borobudur Temple
Carnegie Steel Corporation: boost to production, I assume
The Channel Tunnel: connects two cities (must be constructed between two civilizations, maybe?)
Chronosphere (airport in every city)
The Clock Tower (Big Ben)
The CN Tower
The Colosseum
The Crystal Palace
Diderot's Encyclopedia: science
Dome on the Rock (one content per city; all civs with Monotheism suffer 1 unhappy per city in 4+ cities; in
addition, religion based govts would suffer x2 effect, while atheist govts, i.e. communism, would be immune)
Drugs
Ellis Island (makes 0.01% of the world's population emigrate to the city each year)
Empire State Building
Fedreal Bureau of Investigation: veteran spies, effects of spy in every city, better protection vs. rival
spies/diplomats/corporate branches, etc.
First Contact (achieves victory)
Francis Bacon's Royal Society: science
The Gateway Arch
The Grand Canyon
Grand Palace of the Soviet (diplomatic bonus)
The Great Barrier Reef
The Great Canal
Great General Staff (Gro?er Generalstab)
The Great Polis (removes negative effects of current government in that city only; if captured, will not function
again until all citizens "assimilated" into your empire)
The Great Revolution (allows democracy and modern republic governments; before which, only autocratic
governments and oligarchic republic are allowed; instantly switches building civ's government to modern republic
and halves military costs for next 20 turns)
Ibn Battuta's Travels
Iguacu Falls
The Iliad: double movement rate of settlers and clerics
Imperial Navy Shipyard
International Space Station (buildable only cooperatively with allied nations)
Ise Shrine
Itaipu Dam
The Kaaba: happiness
King Asoka's Edict
KGB: same as FBI
King Richard's Crusade (modified): bonus morale to all land units, all cities gain +1 trade for temples, +2 if
cathedrals, +3 with both. Increases chance of tech diffusion with civs you've contacted. Available w/Chivalry, ends
w/Conscription.
Krakatoa Island
The Kremlin
The Leaning Tower
Lucasfilm
Machu Pichu
The Marianas Trench: underwater natural wonder
Mars Colony
The Mausoleum
The Mayan Temples of Mikal
Millennium Tower (allow more citizens to live in the city, or boost population by 3 in one turn)
Mines of Potosi
The Moai Statues
Mont-Saint-Michel
Moon Base
Mt. Everest
Mt. Fuji
Mt. Kilimanjaro
Mt. Rushmore
Nakamatsu's Workshop
The New Deal (same effect as Cure for Cancer)
Niagara Falls
The Olympic Games: happiness wonder, buildable in early ages, goes obsolete in renaissance ten "turns on" again in
modern times
Paricutin Volcano
The Parthenon: happiness
Petra
The Petronas Towers
The Polders: reclaiming land from the sea
Potala
The Queen's Dominion
Red Square
The Red-Line (Transatlantic Cable)
St. Basil's Cathedral
St. Peter's Basilica
SDI
The Shwedagon Pagoda
Statue of Zeus
Statue of Cristo Redentor: happiness
Stupa of Wild Goose
Sultan's Forge: boost to gunpowder units/cannons
Sydney Opera House
Taj Mahal
Temple of Artemis
Temple of the Inscriptions
Tennessee Valley Authority: increased public works, maybe...
Three Gorges Dam
The Throne Hall of Persepolis
The Time Tunnel (look, it wasn't my idea)
Trans-Siberian Railroad (will build railroads between all cities; this assumes that RR's do not allow unlimited
movement, but perhaps 1/12th point per square; also halves time to build RR's)
Tycho Brahe's Observatory (Uranienborg): science
Utopia (effect of Great Polis in every city in civ; your govt and SE can never change)
Victoria Falls
Wall Street
West Point
Ziggurat at Ur
[This message has been edited by Stefu (edited September 23, 2000).]

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud on 09-21-2000 07:01 PM The VOC- What is this?

The VOC (1602-1795) controlled most of the trade with the (East) Indies during the height of the Dutch civilization in that period (the Golden Age = the 17th century).




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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire