The Big,Big,Big List of Wonders

[Evil Capitalist]

Before the British East India company eclipsed it. I'm against any 'india company' wonders.

[Dauphin]

From the above list of wonders - I'd be surprised to see a nation build the Great Barrier Reef, the Grand Canyon or the Mt. Everest wonder As natural phenomenon they can be capitalised on by tourism but not really built or created. Discovery of them may bring a bonus but that would be pointless really as someone is bound to start near to them and so it would be pure luck.

National Parks aren't as bad but are still not built.

[DarkCloud]

Yes, natural wonders should not be able to be built.

Angkor Wat: No can do. (but thank you anyway for the idea)

Los Alamos: Generates 1500 beakers or 25% of your total science output, whichever is more.

The Dome of the Rock: Increases trade by 25% (pilgrims), 5 happy citizens emerge in the city its built in.

Chichen Itza is out.

Most on that list of wonders are fairly bad for a wonder idea.
Lucasfilm: HA!

VOC- Sorry.

(Thank you for all ideas.)

[Stuff2]

I suggest we limit wonders of the world to actual buildings. Also i'd like to see wonder in these categories:

- Stone age (everthing earlier than 1000 BC)
- Classic (1000 BC to 500 AD)
- Dark age (500 AD to 1000)
- The mideval age (1000 to 1400)
- The Renaissance (1400 to 1600)
- The enlightment (1600 to 1800)
- The industrial revolution (1800 to 1900)
- The automobile era (1900 - 1975)
- Modern (1975 - 2050)
- Future (2050 - 2100)

Some of the names are not suitable but i think you get the picture.

[Shadowstrike]

Hmm... I think we can rename the first era Neolithic, but not Bronze (bronze working was not discovered before c.3000 B.C)

I think this list of eras is far to ethnocentric.
What you consider the dark-ages were dark ages only in Europe, but not in other parts so calling it dark-ages isn't quite the correct for this era (anyway what big wonders are supposed to be built in dark ages? none, that's why they are dark). The dark ages aren't something avery civ has to go through after the classic period.
I think the eras we have are enough. I wouldn't even introduce a "Bronze Age" before Antiquity, if you imagine how much mesoamerican cultures could do without metalworking, a Bronze-Age doesn't make very much sense.

[Evil Capitalist]

Again- NOT WEST POINT.

Sorry for shouting, but look at this thread

[Shadowstrike]

Hmm... how about a few wonders in the near future, i.e. a Space Station wonder (a better station then the proposed ISS) and a Moon Base wonder (possible now, but no one bothers with that idea)

[Lonestar]

West Point
Creates a Barracks in each city, also, any units built in same city as West Point will get "Elite" status.

Chaco Canyon
This is a massive Anasazi settlement. All irrigated tiles will give an additional food unit. (The Anasazi were masters at irrgation)


The Morill Act
Creates University in every city. (Based on Congress Morill Act of 1862, led to a whole lot of "Tech" and "A&M" colleges)


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[This message has been edited by Lonestar (edited September 26, 2000).]

[Dauphin]

I think i'm reiterating previous statements on the subject but I'm thinking that a wonder should be famous or at least well known to a large number of people. For example the Morril Act that Lonestar suggested is not - if you have to explain what your wonder is then is it really appropiate?

Excuse my ignorance if it is

[Lonestar]

Capitalist, you evil capitalist oppressor....

Y'all Really think Sun Tzu's War Acadamy is better than West Point? (or VMI, Annapolis)

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"You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you"

"Soylant Green is people. PPPeeeoooppllleee!"

[Evil Capitalist]

I don't think Sun Tzu should be in either. Nor Clauscwitz's on war. Nor West Pnt, Sandhurst, or any other unique training wonder.

[Comrade Dan]

Damn! Leonardo's Workshop is the only wonder I buld in Civ! (unless everyone else is far behind, then I also build Manhatten) And I don't really wanna continously build units when my city defenders get out of date!

Seriously consider the ramifications for some players when you scrap Leonardo's Workshop!

[Shadowstrike]

Don't worry Dan, that idea is too good to scrap. It will come back, probably under a different name though.

How about some modern ideas, i.e. The Empire State Building (it was a breakthrough in skyscraper construction) and that tall freestanding Inuit stone statue of a man, whatever it was called.

[DarkCloud]

Interesting history about the VOC, however there is a reason why I do not believe the East India Company or the VOC is suitable for Civ III.

And that is they are tangible and are companies. However they rely more on other nations than their own for their significance.

Perhaps the VOC can be an option of the UN to allow free trade and such. Whoever has the most caravans would get a movement bonus through enemy territory or something.

-Chaco Canyon, West Point, and the Other One. Thank's for you ideas but I do not believe these should be in Civ III as being either too narrow or too insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

The ages idea is a good one.

Lonestar: You're really to fixed to US. West Point, Chaco-Canyon, Morill Act, VMI(?).

1.)West Point: A friendly reminder to US-guys, your Marines get beaten every year at the worldchampionship for special forces by Chinese and Austrian and several other nations. US have supreme warfare-technology but the training is nothing better than anywhere else, so: NO West Point (I'm sure the Chinese have something like West Point too, we only don't know its name)

2.)Chaco Canyon: I'm sure the Anasazi were good at irrigation but so where many other peoples (Egyptians?!?). And of course Chaco is a settlement again and I repeat: NO settlements as wonders

3.)Morill Act: Never heard about that one. I could say "The Gloeckl Reforms" probably the austrian correspondent to the Morill Act. You can imagine your imaginative parlament setting up the Morill Act (and I imagine the Gloeckl-reforms)when you decide to build more Universities in your cities but it's definitely no wonder.

The US have enough real wonders (SoL, HD, maybe Mt.Rushmore, WTC and others), we shouldn't overamericanize the game

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Green Go!

[Vrank Prins]

Hello Dark Cloud hear my plea for the VOC-wonder.
The remark Evil Capitalist made about it was rather poor. That's about the same as saying all the antique Greek wonders or achievements are of no significance because later on they were overpowered by the Romans.
Maybe his aversion against "India-company"wonders comes from playing CTP. CTP has the East India Company wonder which has the effect of 5 gold for each foreign trade route crossing water and increased boat movement. The effect of the VOC could be likewise, minus the movement effect.
Though I like the effect of it, I kind of dislike it because of this.
The E.I.C. was organized (with all its own adjustments and modification) after the example of the VOC, as were the Hudson Bay Company and other early colonial enterprises in other countries (f.i. France, Denmark). CTP just ignores the fact that the Dutch were the first ones to organize a trading-company in such a way and very succesful. It is also unique because it actually was the first corporation in history. The Italians developed banking, the Dutch the corporation. In the 17th century, the Dutch century as I may say so, you could trade your VOC-shares everywhere. The VOC is the most significant example of the renewed trade and colonial development of that time.
Microprose has made a more multi-cultural mix of wonders in CIV-II than in CIV-I. Why not put in a dutch one, and the VOC really is of major historical significance!!. If Firaxis does so, they will show to have a better sense and understanding of historical development than Activision does. I hope they won't be likewise anglo-american or anglo-british focused.


[This message has been edited by Vrank Prins (edited September 29, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Vrank Prins (edited September 29, 2000).]

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud on 09-29-2000 10:38 PM Interesting history about the VOC, however there is a reason why I do not believe the East India Company or the VOC is suitable for Civ III. And that is they are tangible and are companies. However they rely more on other nations than their own for their significance.

I don't see why this would be an argument against the VOC. Many Civ 2 wonders rely on other nations, often more so than the VOC: the Great Library, the Great Wall, Marco Polo's Embassy, Darwin's Voyage, Magellan's Expedition, etc. After all, no civilization in our history was ever alone in the world. (Btw, there could never have been a Hoover Dam without building on Dutch knowledge, and the same will hold for a Cure for Cancer.)

The VOC is a product of the Dutch civilization from an age when the Dutch were leading the world and since the Dutch thrived (and still thrive) on trade, most appropriate to be chosen as a wonder - even though there are different options, for example Rembrandt's "Nachtwacht" and - a little later - the "Kinderdijk" mills. The VOC is also a landmark in human history as a whole.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[DarkCloud]

Plausible argument Ribannah...

The VOC is in.

Interesting...but my views have not changed since entering ACS nearly a year ago...

There are enough wonders as is!!!

I do apologize for not having enough time to read everyone's posts. But I will state my general and humble opinion about wonders...

Please, PLEASE think about giving these "wonders" as rewards for being the first to discover a tech!!! It really does make a lot of sense to me.

You're the first to discover flight. You and everyone you have contact with get a message about the historic first flight of the Wright Brothers. Your civ now recieves 1+ movement with all air units. Does not expire.

You're the first to discover oh I don't know...navigation. You get - Magellan's Expedition! Everyone you know recieves a message about Magellan's voyage around the world. Your ships recieve a +2 bonus.

lets go with something non unit related...

You're the first to discover...Theology. You recieve - you guessed it...J.S. Bach's Cathedral. And then everone you know yak yak yak. Your cities recieve +1 happiness.

It's so simple!! You can apply that to a WHOLE BUNCH OF WONDERS!!!

Certain wonders however have to stick as something you build.

Examples include the Pyramids, Lighthouse, Great Wall, United Nations, Women's Sufferage (if that even sticks, i never liked it), Great Library...etc.

Please someone post about this...say you love it, say you hate it! I don't care, just reply. Thanks!

(I've been debating this for 6 months now, no one ever seems to respond to it. If everyone hates it, that's fine. But at least I'll know )

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[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 10-02-2000 09:36 PM Please, PLEASE think about giving these "wonders" as rewards for being the first to discover a tech!!! It really does make a lot of sense to me. You're the first to discover flight. You and everyone you have contact with get a message about the historic first flight of the Wright Brothers. Your civ now recieves 1+ movement with all air units. Does not expire. You're the first to discover oh I don't know...navigation. You get - Magellan's Expedition! Everyone you know recieves a message about Magellan's voyage around the world. Your ships recieve a +2 bonus .... Certain wonders however have to stick as something you build ....

I don't think this is wise. Civ2 is all about finding the right mix between research, income, growth and production - gaining too much from one of those (research) by itself would unbalance the game. It is also unrealistic. Magellan's Expedition, for instance, was an enormous undertaking, so production costs are quite to the point.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[DarkCloud]

Due to all the wonderous discussions, I declare that this thread must be
B*U*M*P*E*D

[airdrik]

I have one thing I'd like to say (for now, anyway), The Great Wall's effects are unrealistic. What it would be is an actual real wall that stretches across your civ through which no units can pass (even your units) except at any cities that it intersects (you choose where to put it up to a certain distance). It also boosts the defence of those cities by 100%

[DarkCloud]

Added new ideas-

Easter Island
Colosseum

--Comments welcome

i've already said that somewhere before: don't make locations wonders. change "easter island" to "moai", that's how the natives called the stone monuments.

[red_jon]

The Magna Carter signing: Increases trade output of city (due to greater freedom).

A monarchy-specific wonder, perhaps?

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[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by red_jon on 12-17-2000 10:29 AM The Magna Carter signing: Increases trade output of city (due to greater freedom). A monarchy-specific wonder, perhaps?

I'd have the Magna Carta come with Feudalism. How about: each new city starts with a free Pikemen unit?

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[orange]

I'm personally against a huge amount of wonders in the game. What we have in Civ 2 is on the borderline of too many wonders. Wonders take away to much from the game, especially things like Adam Smith, Leonardo's Workshop, Darwin, etc. which give too much benefit to the owner for a relatively weak wonder in real life.

I know no one ever comments on this idea, but I'll state it again...

PLEASE COMMENT!

If you give "mini-wonders" to civs who first discover techs (e.g. first to discover flight gets +2 movement with all air units, first to discover conscription recieves +50% defense with all riflemen, etc.) then you can give rewards without taking production and time away from the game. There should be certain "major wonders" such as the Great Wall and Apollo...but IMO these should be limited to 3-4 per era...or a total of 12-16 "major-wonders".

It is so much simpler to give rewards for the first to discover a tech than to waste 20 turns building something.

Also - Major wonders should have separate means of production.

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[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by orange on 12-17-2000 11:45 AM I know no one ever comments on this idea, but I'll state it again... PLEASE COMMENT! ...

I did.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[orange]

To add...

Don't you all think that 60-70 wonders is going to DOMINATE an already wonder dominated game?? I mean think logically...Easter Island Statues??? How can you possibly consider that a relevant wonder, or even something that one should strive to build??

Great wall or Hadrian's Wall...you have to pick one. Why have two essentially identical wonders?

Taj Mahal - how is that a courthouse in every city? How do the two even relate?

Magellan's Workshop - did you mean Voyage?

I don't consider the Gold Rush a wonder. It was a two year event that ended in a mass setlement of california. And it was mostly a bust.

Ford Motor Co.? How is that a wonder? it's a friggin' company!

Two bridges as wonders? I sure hope someone can support me at how this is going to come to weigh down the game.

We need to really think about what a WONDER of the world is A WoW is something so magnificent for it's time that people traveled across oceans and continents just to see it, and/or something that is still regarded today as a defining moment for Civs. Ask the average person what Hadrian's Wall is...most will have no clue. Ask the same person where the great wall is they'll say "China". Or the Great Pyramid. "Egypt". Ask them to explain the Easter Island Statues and they'll say "huh?".

Please, reconsider what you want in this game. Wonders should be limited. The purpose of the game is not to see who can build the most wonders and dominate...it's to rule an empire. Try to keep the focus on this point.

(Sorry to rain on everyone's parade )




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