Where did the world's first civilization appear?

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Ethelred


Never. The technical insult is Frog. I have no idea why.

It is because one of the french delicasies is frog feet.

This was found repulsive by some people (namely the anglosaxon) and thus the characteristic.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by paiktis22


It is because one of the french delicasies is frog feet.

This was found repulsive by some people (namely the anglosaxon) and thus the characteristic.

We could call them slugs, if they wish.

[Ethelred]

you don't care what the Trojan Women of Euripides say...

Very well.

do you care what ANY of the ancient scriptures say?

Not really. Not in this instance anyway. It won't change modern terminology used by historian.

Where do you think we get all this info about ancient Greece?

Not from myths and legends. Those help but they can't be relied on. They have to be checked against what archeology shows and what the people of the time actualy wrote themselves. Unfortunatly the Greeks became illiterate during the Dark Age that followed the Trojan War. So we only have oral tales and stories based on oral tales.

Homer was oral for centuries.

You accept that accrding to ancient texts, the ONLY source we have and where EVERYTHING is based save archeological artifacts, it was the Achaeans who ravaged Troy.

Ancient texts are something we DON'T have. We have a story. That was written hundreds of years after the actual events. A story that includes obious myths like gods and may or may not have had some factual basis.

We do have some REAL writing from the period. Most of it says nothing about the Trojan War. There is ONE partial tablet in cunieform from the Hittite diplomatic archive that MAY refer to some of the events and people of the real Trojan war. It seems to have been scratched out which indicates that things changed right after it was written and before it was baked. The sort of rapid change that war can bring.

The rest that we know about it is guesses based on Homer and the archeological evidence. Its not a lot to go on because there is no writing in Troy from that period. The writing in Greece from that period is exciting stuff like who owned what and how much wheat was stored.

Mycaneans were not Greek in the way that Greece is thought of.

In ancient scriptures achaeans were Greeks and it was them who attacked Troy.

So how come Agamemnon was there. He was as Mycanean as can be. The whole period was named after his city.

You are having a terrible time understanding this. The Acheans were Greek. Therefor the Myceneans were Greek because they were the same people at that time.

Mycenae is a single city. It was a Greek city. Agamemnon was the king of that city. He is one of the Acheans in the Illiad. So he must have been what you call Greek since you call the Acheans Greek. Those Acheans were what historians call Myceneans. What the heck is so bloody hard about this?

Acheans at the time of the Troy you call Greek. Yet as soon as I use the PROPER term for the Acheans you think I have lost my mind.

Acheans at the time of the Trojan War = Mycanean Greeks.

Its that simple. Its STANDARD and you STILL haven't looked at one link I posted.

Are you afraid to look at what real historians say?

Now wether Mycaneans were the Achaeans, it is the first time I hear of this. If this stands then wer are both correct.

Not quite. You have been saying I am wrong so that would show you are wrong and I have been right all along. I never once said the Acheans didn't attack Troy so I never was wrong in the first place.

The fact that this the first time you have heard of this has little meaning. I have been trying to get you to look at those links all along. I have been telling you that all along.

But you have to give me hard evidence for that.

There is a phrase that is relevant here:

You can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

I have given the evidence yet you refuse to look.

Look at the bloody links I posted. Here are some of them again.

http://tenaya.cs.dartmouth.edu/histo...ge/chrono.html

Thats Dartmouth College a reputable University.

Myceneans in general
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/MINOA/MYCENAE.HTM

The Trojan War
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/MINOA/HOMER.HTM

Those are from Washington State University

Good site for a lot of history, just added to my references.

The home page for that is

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/

Not exactly an informative URL is it?

Here is one from Greece. I browsed to it from the Museum in Athens YOU mentioned.

http://www.culture.gr/2/21/211/21104a/e211da01.html

The pertinent part:

Mycenae, the legendary home of the Atreides, is situated upon a small hill-top on the lower slopes of Euboea Mountain, between two of its peaks, on the road leading from the Argolic Gulf to the north (Corinth, Athens, etc.).
The site was inhabited since Neolithic times (about 4000 BC) but reached its peak during the Late Bronze Age (1350-1200 BC), giving its name to a civilization which spread throughout the Greek world.

Is this the clockwork you were talking about?




Now would you please actually look at the links for once before you call me a troll again?

[Adalbertus]

Hell is a nice little town in Norway. Or the Norse Underworld.

Hel is the Norse Underworld. Hell is another place alltogether.

altogether. One l.

On a more constructive side I can add a bit of German: Hölle is basically the same word with the same meaning as hell. But in the old wood or charcoal fired ovens there was also a place called Hölle (Don't know exactly which place, but definitely not the fire chamber), which was supposedly especially hot. I don't know, however, which one is the original meaning.
I don't know any word outside the Germanic region (Scandinavia, England, Germany, Netherlands, Flamish Belgium) where a word was/is in use which is etymologically related to the Hell/Hel/Hölle.

In older German names there was a word stem Hell/Hall which means salt, halys in ancient greek. It is traded in names of towns and cities such as Halle, Schwäbisch Hall, Hallein, and the Hellweg, an ancient Road in Germany on which much salt was traded. Is it possible that in the town Hell there are salt rocks or salt containing well? Or that this simply means "hall"?
Sorry, was unable to find the place in my road atlas on a map 1:4,500,000

[Ethelred]

I had a sneaky suspicion I had botched a bit of Hel.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delp...ia/norway.html

Hel

Hel is the goddess of death and resides in her hall, Elvidnir (misery) in the underworld of Niflheim. She is described as being half-white and half-black. She is responsible for plagues, sickness and catastrophes.

I was thinking it should be Gard as in Midgard and Utgard for the underworld but it didn't feel right. Thats why I wasn't getting anywhere and proceeded to guess wrong.

I should have remembered that one. H. Beam Piper had a world called Nifleheim with a flourine atmosphere. A bit of a while ago that was written. I don't think any Science Fiction writer would invent a world with a flourine atmosphere anymore. Its pretty much impossible without manufacturing it and then maintaining it.

The city is HELL with two Ls in Norway.

http://www.gonorway.no/hell/

Best I can make out it is in the Trondheim area. Which is where the country thins down a lot you go north from the southern blob.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Keygen


No. Cyprus in geographical books is always refered as part Europe.

Isn't Cyprus part of Turkey (Near East)? Or do you consider Turkey to be part of Europe?

[KrazyHorse]

Isn't Cyprus part of Turkey (Near East)?

I smell paiktis coming...

[Adalbertus]

I smell paiktis coming...

So lets hide behind a few other posts. Cyprus is divided in an eastern and western part, the eastern being pro-Turkish and AFAIK annected by Turkey, the western part is pro-Greek and much more independent.

And stay away from the mine fields. Northern Ireland is in full peace.

Best I can make out it is in the Trondheim area. Which is where the country thins down a lot you go north from the southern blob.

Thanks, I've found it. Two l. There was also a map 1:750000 (but way too many names to check them all). Why don't they include all German places with more than 352 inhabitants on such a map ????

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Ethelred

The end of the Ice Age did cause the sea levels to rise of course but that occured over a long period of time. Most humans were still pretty nomadic and they would never notice at all. As for the others I think 10,000 years is a very long time for such a thing to be handed down. Over that time the people would have experienced many severe floods.

Perhaps you're right.
I personally have read in detail the floods of Noe & Deukalion only, not Gilgamese. But I had read in an article that many mythologies worldwide, including Pro-Colombian America and not only the above three have strories of large scale, worldwide floods. Perhaps you are right that it was matter of local floods but some myths have very old roots, that go thousands of years back. In my opinion it is possible that the flood myth is that old. Besides the melting of the ices didn't hapenned from the one day to the other. It took a long time and too many generations to complete. A typical flood usually last a few days until completelly disappear and occur oftenly. But the flood from the end of the Ice Age possibly lasted for many centuries.

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Ethelred

Myceneans aren't Minoan.

Minoans aren't Mycenean.

Myceneans were Greeks.

It is actually a time period named after the Greek city of Mycenae. A city which Agamemnon ruled before his wife gave him the slice and dice treatment. Which he deserved really if the Illiead has it right that he sacrificed his own daughter.

Agamemenon who led the Greeks at Troy was the king of Mycenae. The Greeks are also called Acheans but I didn't use the word cause I never do except now.

Just to clear things a bit.

Minoans have not been testified as a Greek tribe, therefore they are not considered as Greeks so far. However some researches support that both Greeks (Pro-Greeks) and Minoans came from Minor Asia and might have been related tribes. Also some anthropologists testify that the anthropological findings in the greater area of the Balkans and West Minor Asia for the first milleniums BC seem to be related to each other therefore must belong to the same branch.
But so far Minoans are not Greeks.

Myceneans have been testified as Greeks from the first waves aka Pro-Greek tribes followed by the proto-Greeks (prime Greeks) that finally through the centuries consisted the Greeks.
It is not well known when the inhabitants of the Agean first called themselves Greeks but the first reference come with the first texts during the first millenium BC. Greeks were always splited into several tribes that broke into independed city-states in later times.

Myceneans got called like these from their greatest political center, Mycenea. They were not actually a tribe but a civilization. They were many tribes called Acheans and some times Dorians all together.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


We could call them slugs, if they wish.

Nop ! Not slugs, snorls ! Slugs aren't enough tastefull.

[Keygen]

Originally posted by DinoDoc

Wouldn't you say that you were a citizen of Hell as well if you were living in Greece? I know that I would.

"H" is not pronounced

Originally posted by GP


Isn't Cyprus part of Turkey (Near East)? Or do you consider Turkey to be part of Europe?

I knew that most Americans don't know **** about History but I guess in Geography you do worst

Go open a book first and then come talk to us here in Apolyton

[Bereta_Eder]

Nah don't mind GP, Keygen.

He trolls me from time to time

He also got some lovin' from a turkish cutie, see and he can't forget it

(He was your typical american sailor out in Constantinople to have some kicks )

Now there are rumours about him being in a hareem

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Keygen


Just to clear things a bit.

Minoans have not been testified as a Greek tribe, therefore they are not considered as Greeks so far. However some researches support that both Greeks (Pro-Greeks) and Minoans came from Minor Asia and might have been related tribes. Also some anthropologists testify that the anthropological findings in the greater area of the Balkans and West Minor Asia for the first milleniums BC seem to be related to each other therefore must belong to the same branch.
But so far Minoans are not Greeks.

The people that have studied what they can of Linear A seem to think the language is not Indo-European which would make them significantly different from Greeks. However they could still both be from Asia Minor. OF course the linguistic study could easily be wrong since its only based on the characteristics of Linear A that appear to differ from Linear B.

Myceneans have been testified as Greeks from the first waves aka Pro-Greek tribes followed by the proto-Greeks (prime Greeks) that finally through the centuries consisted the Greeks.

Well the Doric invasion came shortly after the Trojan War but I must admit I know very little about it. Modern Greeks have also been subjected to several later invasions plus its likely some of the Greek mercenaries could have brought back foreign wives and certainly brought foreign slaves back. Maybe even from India.

It is not well known when the inhabitants of the Agean first called themselves Greeks but the first reference come with the first texts during the first millenium BC. Greeks were always splited into several tribes that broke into independed city-states in later times.

There were quite a few city-states in the Mycenean period but the only one I am aware of that wasn't sacked in the Doric invasions was Athens.

Myceneans got called like these from their greatest political center, Mycenea. They were not actually a tribe but a civilization. They were many tribes called Acheans and some times Dorians all together.

I don't know if the Dorians were around that area much then. Certainly they were later. The people called Mycenean Greeks never called themselves that. Its a purely modern term. One that didn't arise till archeology became a major contributor to history.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Keygen


"H" is not pronounced





I knew that most Americans don't know **** about History but I guess in Geography you do worst

Go open a book first and then come talk to us here in Apolyton

Well most Americans anyway. Lots do but many don't. Heck a lot don't much US history. We do have a lot of experts on TV sitcoms.

Geography is little taught in the US for some reason. I had geography when I was in Catholic school but not a bit after that through 6 years of Juniour and Senior High School. One class in college.

Cyprus is not part of Asia or Europe. Its an island. Just ask the Brits if they are European.

I did look at the CIA site. They call it part of the Middle East. Obviously the CIA does not speak for everyone but they do hire experts for their studies and they can't afford to let politics get to far in the way of reality.

[Keygen]

Originally posted by paiktis22

Now there are rumours about him being in a hareem

Originally posted by Ethelred

The people that have studied what they can of Linear A seem to think the language is not Indo-European which would make them significantly different from Greeks. However they could still both be from Asia Minor. OF course the linguistic study could easily be wrong since its only based on the characteristics of Linear A that appear to differ from Linear B.

Since Linear A hasn't been decoded yet any relation with Indo-European language brach cannot be attempted.
So linguistic relations cannot be made.

Originally posted by Ethelred

Well the Doric invasion came shortly after the Trojan War but I must admit I know very little about it. Modern Greeks have also been subjected to several later invasions plus its likely some of the Greek mercenaries could have brought back foreign wives and certainly brought foreign slaves back. Maybe even from India.

Yes, lot of mixup have been done here in Greece. The same goes around the world since most nations are greatly mixed up.
However the Mediterranean characteristics in Greece are still dominant in most occations.

Originally posted by Ethelred

There were quite a few city-states in the Mycenean period but the only one I am aware of that wasn't sacked in the Doric invasions was Athens.

Yes, Athens wasn't sacked. Dorians went mostly in Peloponnesos, Crete and Southwest Minor Asia plus parts of Central Greece and some Aegean islands. The rest of Greece wasn't infested

Originally posted by Ethelred

I don't know if the Dorians were around that area much then. Certainly they were later. The people called Mycenean Greeks never called themselves that. Its a purely modern term. One that didn't arise till archeology became a major contributor to history.

Sorry, my mistake. Misspell. I meant Danaos (in singular).
Dorians came in Greece around 1100 BC.

I don't know how they were calling themselves and possibly none archeologist knows.
It is a modern term but the name Mycenae is ancient if I am correct.

Originally posted by Ethelred

Well most Americans anyway. Lots do but many don't. Heck a lot don't much US history. We do have a lot of experts on TV sitcoms.

Geography is little taught in the US for some reason. I had geography when I was in Catholic school but not a bit after that through 6 years of Juniour and Senior High School. One class in college.

I see. Well, the same happens here in Greece but Geography is teached in school but still less than history.
I think people worldwide don't like much either history or geography so it must be matter of personality rather of a nation

I was just trolling GP

Originally posted by Ethelred

Cyprus is not part of Asia or Europe. Its an island. Just ask the Brits if they are European.

Then lot of Greek islands, Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, etc. are not part of Europe either
Land worldwide is splited into continents, including islands. Some accommodations are made.

Originally posted by Ethelred

I did look at the CIA site. They call it part of the Middle East. Obviously the CIA does not speak for everyone but they do hire experts for their studies and they can't afford to let politics get to far in the way of reality.

Ethelred, CIA is not a specialized geographical site. They might take notice of some parameters that geographers don't and consider Cyprus for their reasons as part of Middle East therefore Asia.
I have read lot of geographical books, atlases, maps, turistic guides etc. and most of them list the countries according to the continent they are part of. I have never seen Cyprus as part of Asia but always as part of Europe.

According to "Dorling Kindersley" (2000, United Kingdom) and "Grand Larousse" (2001, France) Cyprus is part of Europe.
However according to "Microsoft Encarta Inceractive World Atlas 2001" (2001, USA) Cyprus is part of Asia (I just read it).
So I guess for European geographers Cyprus is European country and for the American (USA) geographers is Asian country
I'd like to see an American geography book as well.

[Ethelred]

Ethelred, CIA is not a specialized geographical site.

No it isn't. Its geopolitics in this case. I have a link that I use for a quick check on countries. All kinds of stuff on a lot of countries. It has an inherently political point of view. Usefull when a country I don't know much about hits the news. Here is the link.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/

I thinks its nice the the US now has so much information online. We the People spent the money to collect it and now We the People can actually access a lot of it. Making the government more the way it is supposed to be here.

So I guess for European geographers Cyprus is European country and for the American (USA) geographers is Asian country

I think of it as Europrean. The Middle East is more Mediterranean to Americans rather than it is Asian.

Turkey is a bit of mix in itself. Half Middle East yet its finance is more linked with Europe. Plus its the only Islamic nation with a real democratic government. A couple of other Islamic countries have tried democracy and failed to handle it very well.

At least they aren't run by fratricidal monarchs anymore. Suleyman the Magnificent my bleep. Psychotic brother murdering monster is more like it.

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Ethelred


No it isn't. Its geopolitics in this case. I have a link that I use for a quick check on countries. All kinds of stuff on a lot of countries. It has an inherently political point of view. Usefull when a country I don't know much about hits the news. Here is the link.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/

I thinks its nice the the US now has so much information online. We the People spent the money to collect it and now We the People can actually access a lot of it. Making the government more the way it is supposed to be here.

I have visited the link in the past.
It's a nice one indeed.

Originally posted by Ethelred

Turkey is a bit of mix in itself. Half Middle East yet its finance is more linked with Europe. Plus its the only Islamic nation with a real democratic government. A couple of other Islamic countries have tried democracy and failed to handle it very well.

At least they aren't run by fratricidal monarchs anymore. Suleyman the Magnificent my bleep. Psychotic brother murdering monster is more like it.

Yes and no. Military is still running things in Turkey.

[Adalbertus]

Cyprus is not part of Asia or Europe. Its an island.

So, is then Mainau, an island in the Lake of Constance (between Germany, Switzerland, and Austria), part of Europe or not?

Just ask the Brits if they are European.

Depends, whether they are asked by a French or American.