Discussion on Existing Wonders

colossus · February 19, 2001, 01:45

Now, there are so many new wonders suggestion, but let's turn back to the oldies.

Now supposed that civ3 will keep the majority of wonders in civ2(very probably in my opinion), how should Firaxis adjust them? Here are some of my suggestions:

Ancient Wonders
Colossus - expire with democracy
Hanging Garden - cost 300 shields
Pyramid - expire with refrigeration
Oracle - expire with fundamentalism
Great Library - no change
Great Wall - no change
Lighthouse - no change

Medieval Wonders
Michangelo's Chapel - every city build an instantaneous cathedral-one that has to be paid to keep
Corpenicus Observatory - +50%science; expire with computer
Shakespeare' Theater - cost 400 shields
Sun Tzu's War Academy - applicable to land units only
King Richard's Crusade - no change
Marco Polo's Embassy - no change
Magellan's Expedition - no change

More on these later1

Grumbold · February 19, 2001, 11:43

I'm more in favour of a complete overhaul of the Wonder system. At the moment they take so much effort to build they absolutely have to come with significant benefits. IMO none of them really deserve to be that good. They should be cheaper and devolve into a tourist (trade) bonus after a much shorter period of time.

DrFell · February 19, 2001, 15:34

Well, I'd prefer to keep wonders pretty much as they are in civ2, with just a few basic adjustments to balance them out a bit more. For example, I've never built the Oracle in civ2, it just expires too early and costs too much for what its worth. HG was a much cheaper and more effective alternative. Extending the expiration date and making HG more expensive would IMO help to balance these two out a bit better.
[This message has been edited by DrFell (edited February 19, 2001).]

JosefGiven · February 19, 2001, 19:44

King Richard's Crusade is one of my least favourite wonders. By the time I discover the advance that allows a civ to build it (Engineering?), I am pretty much on top of Industrialisation, which makes it obsolete. This is a wonder I'd like to see upgraded in Civ III.

BTW, I'd like to introduce a new wonder into Civ III, St. Basil's Cathedral (Red Square, Moscow).

1. I think it is the most beautiful building in the world.

2. I believe it was commisioned by Ivan the Terrible to celebrate the defeat of the Kazan province (Hence the onion-domed minarets (rooves?), one for each of the Tatar prince's heads, I think) So as a wonder it could confer a military bonus.

3. It is a cathedral, so it could confer a religious/happiness bonus.

GaryGuanine · February 20, 2001, 04:23

Anyone else think Copernicus' Observatory should be renamed Tycho Brahe's Observatory? Any historians of science here?

Gary

Henrik · February 20, 2001, 05:11

Well, copernicus hadn't an observatory had he?
It's funny that you mention thyco brahe's though, I use that wonder in my scenarios.

Theben · February 20, 2001, 05:27

Any discussion of changing wonders should be just that- please explain any changes you would like.

Pyramids- I would like to swap the functions of HG and Pyramids, so that the Pyramids grant the bonus to happiness and HG the growth. Reasoning behind it is reflected in the two societies: Egypt had clearer concpet of life after death and had a lot of luxuries (adds to happiness), while HG 1) comes with pottery and granaries so there's a link and 2) Babylonians had state-sponsored springtime rituals devoted to procreation (more babies, more growth). Okay so they weren't the only ones but work with me here. Anyway both of these reason are somewhat religiously oriented so the should expire either around Theology or Communism (the Wonder killer

).

HG- see above. The other possiblity is to switch the abilities of HG and Sheakspeare's, because the Gardens were always mentioned in the context of being a wonderful sight to behold in the city of Babylon, while the works of Sheakespeare are enjoyed outside of their city of origin. Since Sheakspeare is still enjoyed it won't expire.

Colossus- Maybe lasts until Corporation, when new methods of trade are developed. Or until the new tech 'tourism'. If obsolete wonders add trade to city then perhaps it shouldn't expire at all. Considering the reason it adds trade is because it's such a "grand structure" maybe it should only last until engineering, invention, or industrialization. Perhaps it's benefits should change; i.e. gains "tourism bonus" long before "tourism" 'tech', which would then need to be somewhat impressive.

Lighthouse- No changes.

GL- Ends with University again, since the GL was bascially a huge early university.

Oracle- In my modpack I replaced it with Shintoism, and changed the cost to 200. Shinto is one of the world's few polytheistic relgions that smoothly incorporated itself with Buddhism, and opposed to being replaced by the monotheistic relgion as many others were. It expires with Radio, because it was Emperor Hirohito's radio broadcast that forever broke the divine myth of his status. Makes it a much more valuable and cost friendly wonder. Could be Golden Pavilion, Ise Shrine, if you want a structure instead of a concept.

Great Wall- Should either allow early construction of fortresses or grant the owner several free fortress placements within his/her borders. If free walls are kept they should be permanent ones, but only effective vs early units (I had a thread explaining this long ago, dividing 3 levels of walls down the same categories as units). And the walls should only arrive with currently existing cities. Keep barb bonus/auto peace function.

Sun Tzu- More of a concept. Probably should get rid of it but I like it too much!

King Richard's Crusade- Another one which I proposed a change long ago. Should replace Sun Tzu, arrive with Chivalry, obsolete with Conscription. Land units get a experience bonus (or are veteran), cities with temples and/or cathedrals get a trade bonus (the pilgrimage routes), and the owner gets a slight chance each turn of acquiring a tech that a civ it is currently at war with has.

Darwin's- Change cost to 300.

Eiffel Tower- Scrap it. If anything change it to something like the Rights of Man or Bill of Rights, and take the auto peace function of U.N. and give it to this.

Leo's- Make it so that upgrades aren't instantaneous but occur over several turns, depending on the distance from the home civ.

Mike's Chapel- Turn it back to adds 2 to cathedral's contentment bonus, but leave the effects permanent.

Woman's Sufferage- Should be Universal Sufferage, and should be a 'tech', not a wonder.

Manhattan- Builder gets a 6-turn headstart on nuke construction.

U.N- Keep auto embassy function, move auto peace function to Bill of Rights or maybe SoL, grant the ability to auto declare war in either Repub or Demo, and can shut down all trade routes going into a civ that the owner is at war with (sanctions).

Apollo- Builder gets 6 turn headstart on spaceship construction.

Cure for Cancer- Too futuristic. Get rid of it.

Magellan's- Should also grant an auto map of some route around the world.

I have other ideas, but for now I'm too tired to make decent points.

EnochF · February 20, 2001, 18:24

My roommate is constantly picking on me because I think Tycho Brahe's Observatory (i.e., Uranienborg) is a better wonder than Copernicus' Observatory. Apparently his rationale is that "nobody" knows who Tycho Brahe was.

My attitude is, screw him.

There. Not entirely relevant, but I certainly feel better.

Cyclotron · February 20, 2001, 19:03

If cure for Cancer is too futuristic for you... replace with "polio vaccine" or something similar and move it to an earlier tech. The Modern age needs a good happiness wonder.

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"Any shred of compassion left in me was snuffed out forever when they cast me into the flames..."
- Marsil, called the Pretender

GaryGuanine · February 20, 2001, 23:07

The other thing about Copernicus' Observatory is that it's so far away from Newton's College (which doesn't make sense anyway, must be one of those "concept" wonders). Copernicus and Newton were not that far away in terms of time. The Observatory is just too classic, however, to be changed or removed.

Newton's College, however, is odd. Cambridge was there for quite some time before Sir Isaac, and he didn't really "change" it that much. He should have something, since he was such a great historical person, but I just don't know what.

Gary

colossus · February 20, 2001, 23:49

It seems that the discussion has gone a little bit out of hand! Since there has been so many proposal for new wonders, this thread is not concerned for that, rather should concentrate on remedy on imbalance of existing wonders.

Second part of my suggestion:

Industrial Wonders
Statue of Liberty - Remove its ability to allow government forms not yet researhed
Adam Smith's Trading Comapny - -1 support cost for ALL city improvements
Leonardo's Workshop - -25% build cost for all units
Eiffel Tower - +5 trade on the city building it
Isaac Newton's College - +50% science
JS Bach's Cathedral - no change
Darwin's Voyage - no change

Modern Wonders
Woman's Suffrage - +1 production on all cities
United Nations - Remove its ability to allow democracy to declare war
SETI Program - 2 free science, like Darwin's Voyage
Appolo Program - give a free set of 3 modules(solar panel+ support+ habitation) as headstart
Cure for Cancer - no change
Manhattan Project - no change
Hoover Dam - no change

Some Comments:

The wonders system in civ2 give players incentive to rush to certain tech, so that they can build the wonder and enjoy the benefits. This allow peaceful way of consuming the shield and add great favours to the game.

But the inherent inequalities of wonders not only make some wonders highly preferable to others(eg. Mike's Chapel), but also make the player possessing the wonder to become a monster, difficult to catch up and destroy.

Rectifying the wonders is to tune down the game-swing one and equalize the others, so that everyone has a fair chance of building one and an incentive to build even the less desired ones.

GaryGuanine · February 21, 2001, 02:55

I like a lot of your ideas colossus. If I don't mention one of your things, that means I like it. I just don't want this post to look like an attack or anything.

I think King Richard's is good the way it is, maybe just too short. The meaning is because in preparation for the Third Crusade (right one?), Richard fully mobilized England. Basically, this means London, as far as cities go, but it was the full mobilization, and the remarkable production of a crosading army that I think the makers of Civ are trying to get at.

I agree with Apollo and Manhattan being kinda weird, but I think they're just there to allow you to prevent the stuff rfom happening. I mean, sure, there were more nuclear programs than the M.Project on the loose near teh end of the war, but they were pretty wrong in their ideas. America's is really the only oen to get it right, and if we hadn't done it, it may have been a longn time coming. Apollo, I think just serves that purpose (possible prevention).

I really like your Magellan's thing. Great idea!

Leonardo's Workshop I think isn't about industry, it's about innovation in the Renaissance. The more I think about it, the more I think it really is about industry, but still, I think it should have something to do with tech, not just producing units.

SETI program idea is too far in the future. I think most people would end up getting 2 Future Techs if that's what it was.

I really like WOmen's Suffrage as it is. You no longer need the men at home to keep things running. Much more a symbolic one than a real one. +1 production is so insignificant anyway.

Lots of really good ideas, though.

Gary

GaryGuanine · February 21, 2001, 02:56

My God what typos!

Gary

tmarcl · February 22, 2001, 01:14

I like the idea of changing around most of the wonders-so many of them just make no sense whatsoever, IMO.

For example, the Pyramids are tombs for dead kings, and really have nothing to do with food storage, imo. Their effect could be a happiness bonus, I suppose, but even then, not really.

The Oracle is one that I've changed the name of to Sacred Writings. To me, it makes more sense that having your beliefs written down increases the efficiency of your priests, and thus the effectiveness of your temples.

King Richard's Crusade I usually change to Craft Guilds, which again, makes a lot more sense. I agree that it's effect should be longer-with the name change, keep it until Labor Union, and it should affect all cities, not just the builder.

Statue of Liberty should have the effect that King Richard's Crusade currently has. The Statue of Liberty attracted immigrants to the US (specifically to Manhattan), thus increasing the workforce.

I also agree with the +5 trade for the Eiffel Tower. So far as I know, having the Eiffel Tower hasn't made other countries trust France any more than they would have without it. Usually, I change the name of the Tower to Humanitarianism.

They should definitely rehaul Woman's Suffrage (sp?). Giving women the right to vote didn't improve production-many women were already working in factories. Also, making it available to non-democratic nations just doesn't make sense. Personally, I change it to Hollywood. The news reels keep people informed about what's going on with the war, relieving at least some of their worry about troops out of the country.

Darwin's Voyage and Apollo Program should be renamed to Theory of Evolution and Space Program respectively.

SETI also doesn't make sense-the SETI project is stationed in one spot, and only involves itself in one specific area of research, it's not going to improve everyone else's research capabilities. Personally, I change it to Internet.

As always, my opinions are worth exactly what you've paid for them.

Marc

GaryGuanine · February 22, 2001, 01:45

Marc,

Many of the wonders are exactly what you say, but are just symbolic. Darwin's Voyage is the Theory of Evolution, effectively. It just sounds stupid (to me) to have a city making Humanitarianism.

Also, a lot of those wonders do make a lot of sense. Pyramids signify the strong ecclesiastic power of the Egyptian church, and that church's role in food storage. The Crusade is because of Richard II's complete mobilization of England in preparation for the Crusade. Also, with city support (how it should be, goddamn it!), it allows the building city (London in real history) to have a large army. You are also aware about the incredible wartime employment of women in America, right? There was an amazing difference from before Women's Suffrage.

I really like your idea of SETI and the Internet. It could symbolize a strong technological/computer/Internet thing going on. Good idea.

Gary

colossus · February 22, 2001, 05:26

Thinking about the pyramid stuff, I guess the reasoning of Sid Mei's civ2 as: Egypt was known as the granary of the Ancient World, so the Egyptian wonder, Pyramid, should confer the benefits of granary. As it turned out, it became the most ridiculous of all wonders!

Adm.Naismith · February 22, 2001, 07:06

Colossus, I just notice your:

quote:

Colossus - expire with democracy

Please don't expire yourself!

- sorry, just kidding, but I can't resist.

On topic: I'm more for a complete revision for Wonder (in game) concept. As I red (and agree) months ago, wonders are usually a weak point for AI civ, so unbalancing game in favour of human players. Minor tweak are useless IMHO.

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

Optimizer · February 23, 2001, 19:05

I agree that the old wonders and their effects should be revised. I read in the Civ 3 Ideas list about the "World's Greatest" concept - that would be a good idea.

Wonders, that act as one certain improvement in each city, unbalance the game too much - they are excellent investment for a large civ, but don't yield much for a small one. A wonder should rather have effects just for that city.

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90% of the casualties in a 21st century war are civilians. Join the army!
[This message has been edited by Optimizer (edited February 23, 2001).]

GaryGuanine · February 23, 2001, 23:24

The problem with that idea, Optimizer, is that many wonders are not city-based. How would Women's Suffrage affect one city? Or the Manhattan project?

Gary

Sirotnikov · February 27, 2001, 14:51

I've got one Idea how would Manhatten project affect one city

heard of Hiroshima or Chernobil?

colossus · February 28, 2001, 04:36

The discussion seems to peter out. Let me make some summary:

There are well established concensus about the problems of the following wonders:

Colossus - expire too late
Hanging Garden - too cheap too powerful
Pyramid - no one thinks it's a sensible wonder
Oracle - seems to expire as soon as it is built

Michaelangelo's Chapel - damn too powerful
King Richard's Crusade - similar to Oracle

Eiffel's Tower - useless in SP, useless in MP
Leonardo's Workshop - too powerful

SETI Program - too late to be useful
Apollo Program - not much incentive to build it, unless miles ahead in tech

Optimizer · February 28, 2001, 15:17

Women's Suffrage should not be a wonder - rather a tech. It is neither built nor unique. Although I don't want to see Civ 3 without the Pyramids and the Great Wall, I hope that not all existing wonders or their effects are "sacred".

Father Beast · March 1, 2001, 06:25

Manhattan Project: I don't like it, so let's make it so it's disadvantageous to build. Immediately makes nukes available to all civs with rocketry, and destroys the city that was building it.

No, seriously, give the civ that built it a headstart, like theben suggested. When I Build manhattan and the AI nukes me the next turn, it's as if the US built their bomb and japan nuked them first!!

we need some advantage for the apollo building civ, as well.

Stuff2 · March 1, 2001, 08:43

I have some suggestions for some of the modern wonders.

- Apollo program, your civ get the tech "space flight" for free and all other nations are available to research it if they have the prereq for it.
- Manhattan project, your civ get the "nuclear warfare" advance for free and all other nations with the right prereq are able to research "nuclear warfare" and "nuclear power".
- SETI program, gives you two free tech and opens up some advances for being able to research.