"Unit Workshop" Module List

[Youngsun]

New unit stats
Melee:basic fighting power/close combat ability
Support:when accompanied with melee units add bonus to the melee units
Armour:absorb some of enemy hit including enemy support fire
Mobility: this is not map(strategic) mobility this is battlefield mobility.
1~4 Bf mobility equals 1 map mobilit
4~8 Bf mobility equals 2 map mobility
8~12 Bf mobility equals 3 map mobility
Battlefield mobility affects actual battle as a combined arms effect and map mobility ,as you know, reflect how many square you can move.

Raw Conscripts
Melee/support/armour/mobility
Primitive men 2/0/0/3
Ancient men 2/0/0/4
Renaissance men 1/0/0/3
Modern men 1/0/0/2

*Prehistoric*
Stone axe +3 melee
Hunting spear +2 melee +1 support
Primitive bow +2 support
Leather armour +1 armour

*Ancient*
Bronze spear +4 melee +1 support
Bronze sword +5 melee
Scale armour +2 armour -1 mobility
Iron spear +5 melee +1 support
Iron sword +6 melee
Iron armour +2 armour -1 mobility
Wooden shield +1 armour
Bronze shield +2 armour -1 mobility
Iron shield +3 armour -1 mobility
Composite bow +3 support
Horse armour +2 armour -1 mobility
Marius's mule allows a unit to fortify -1 mobility +1 logistics
Chain mail +3 amour -1 mobility


Transport(Anceint to early Modern)
Light Horse +6 mobility(no armour allowed)
Medium Horse +5 mobility(armoured men allowed)
War Horse +4 mobility(Horse armour allowed)
Chariot(arse) +2 mobility
Chariot(horse)+3 mobility
Elephant +2 mobility -2 enemy melee(only cavalry)

*Midieval & Early Rennaissance*
Long sword +7 melee
Pike +5 melee X2 melee vs mounted(only inf)
Lance +5 melee X2 melee vs mounted(only cav)
Plate armour +4 armour -2 mobility
Mace +5 melee ignores enemy armour 50% -1 mobility
Longbow +5 support ignores enemy armour 60%(inf only)
Crossbow +3 support ignores enemy armour 80%
Stirrup +2 melee(only mounted)auto upgrade if discovered


*Renaissance to Modern*
After the discovery of gunpowder new stat(firepower) will be added to all units which use firearms(many thanks to Evil capitalist)


Infantry primary
Arquebus +1 firepower
Musket +2 firepower
Later musket(Napoleonic) +3 firepower +4 melee
Early rifle(Napoleonic) +5 firepower +4 melee
Breech loader rifles(Colonial) +6 firepower +4 melee
Magazine rifle(WWI) +7 firepower +4 melee
Semi Automatic rifle(WWII) +10 firepower +4 melee
Advanced rifle(Modern) +15 firepower +3 melee

Cavalry firearms
Pistol(handgun)+1 firepower
Carbine +4 firepower

Armour
Basic tank(or Inf-tank) +8 armour +6 firepower +1 mobility(1.ignores trench effect 2.Ancient enemy melee/support negated ->applied to all armour)
Heavy Tank +10 armour +6 firepower(X2 vs hard target) +2 mobility
'Blitzkrieg' tank(WWII) +12 armour +7 firepower(X2 vs hard target) +5 mobility can "blitz"->applied to all armours after this
MBT(post WWII) +16 armour +12 firepower(X2 vs hard target) +7 mobility
MBT(next generation) +30 armour +16 firepower(X2 vs hard target)
+8 mobility(finally it equals 3 map mobility)

Note: All armours developed during and after WWII can blitz which means your unit can get through enemy unit without necessarily destroying it. Blitzed and enveloped enemy unit will suffer from penalty of reduced firepower,etc.

Siege support
Captapult/trebuchet +1 siege support can break city wall
Medieval bombard +2 siege support can break city wall
Mortar/Howitzer(Napoleonic) +3 siege support ignore city wall(applied to all artillery after these)
Mortar/Siege gun/Railgun(World war) +4 siege support

Field firepower support
Cannon(Napoleonic) +1 Firepower support
Breechloading cannon +2 FP support
Field Howitzer(world war) +3 FP support
SPA/Mobile rocket launcher(WWII) +3 FP support +5 mobility
SPA/MLRS(Modern) +4 FP support +6 mobility

Misc. support
Flak gun +4 firepower X3 vs Air target X2 hard target
SAM +16 firepower air target only
AT gun +2 firepower X4 hard target
ATGM +16 firepower hard target only

Transport(Modern)
Truck(motorised) +6 mobility
Half tracked(mechanised) +7 mobility +2 armour +1 FP support
Tracked(APC) +6 mobility +4 armour +1 FP support
Tracked(IFV) +7 mobility +8 armour +2 FP support

Note:Field guns can be horse-drawn by combining horses and guns. Other type of transport can be used for that function such as trucks.

Ground Reconnaissance
Motor cycle +2 recon bonus +7 mobility
Armoured vehicle(WWII) +2 recon +8 mobility +2 armour
Combat recon(modern) +4 recon +12 mobility +4 armour

*Navy(Ancient to Rennaissance)*
(Many thanks to Evil capitalist)

Note: Diffrent sea access
Coastal only
Calm sea only(+Coastal)
Rough sea only(+Calm+Coastal)
Ocean going(+Rough+Calm+Coastal)

Outrigger(canoe) +1 naval scout, coastal sea only
Merchant vessel(Early) +1 transportation, calm sea only
Tririeme +1 naval melee, can carry troops,Greek fire modification(+1 fire power),calm sea only
Longboat +1 naval melee,can carry troops,rough sea,Amphibious assault allowed
Galley +2 naval melee,can carry troops
Cog +2 transportation,rough sea
Junk +3 transportation,rough sea
Dhow +4 transportation,calm sea
Battleship(Medieval) +3 naval melee,can carry troops,cannon modification(+2 firepower)

Ocean going vessel
Caravel +2 transportation
Carrack +2 naval melee,can carry troops,cannon modification(+3 firepower)
Galleon +6 transportation,cannon modification(+3 firepower)
Fluyte +7 transportation,cannon modification(+4 firepower)
Sloop/Privateer +3 naval melee,can carry troops,can disrupt trade route +3 firepower
Frigate +4 naval melee,can carry troops,+6 firepower
Ship of the line +4 naval melee,can carry troops,+7 firepower,Steam engine modification(+1 mobility),Heated cannon shot modification(X2 vs wooden ship)
Indiaman +8 transportation,cannon modification(+5 firepower)


Industrial age ships
Clipper ship +6 transportation +2 mobility
Early steamship +8 transportation +3 mobility
Early Ironclad +4 firepower +3 armour +3 mobility, naval melee negated,coastal only
Later Ironclad +6 firepower +4 armour +4 mobility
Cruiser +8 firepower +6 armour +5 mobility ,AA modification,steel armour modification,AV missile modification,
Battleship +12 firepower +10 armour +3 mobility,AA modification
Battlecruiser +10 firepower +8 armour +4 mobility,AA modification
Submarines(U-boat WWI~WWII) +1 under sea attack +2 mobility
Submarines(Modern) +3 under sea attack +3 mobility,Stealth modification,missile pod
Destroyer +6 firepower(X2 vs subs)+4 armour,AA modification,+6 mobility,AV missile upgrade
Frigate +4 firepower(X3 vs subs) +4 armour,AA modification,+7 mobility,AV missile upgrade
Carrier +6 firepower,+6 armour,AA modification,+5 mobility,Engine upgrade,Catapult upgrade,Deck upgrade
Liner +16 transportation need port facility +3 mobility
Container ship +32 transportation need advanced port facility +4 mobility
Trimarin ?
Stealth boat ??


Modification/upgrade(Modern ship)
Engines: Steam turbine engine. Gas/oil turbine. Nuclear reactor.
ASW abilities: Torpedos, sonar etc.: spot and attack submarines in adjacent squares. (made more effective with Sonar)+1 underwater melee
Spotter plane: Popular in WW2 ships, these were used to keep track of the battle and report of shot accuracy before radars and computers. See 2 squares. +1 naval recon
Electronic aids: Does all the processing of data and collects it all in one room. See 2 squares, +1 naval support
Fibre-optic link: Allows ships to maximise communication. further +1 firepower support.
Missile launch facilities: Allows a ship to launch cruise(Tomahawk) or Anti vessel(Exocet)missiles
AA countermeasures: AA missiles and chainguns(Phalanx)give a ship almost total protection from aerial and missile attack.
AEGIS Radar Air defence system upgrade: X3 vs air/missile target


*Air Force*
Bi-plane(WWI) +3 recon +1 firepower can intercept air target
Mono-plane fighter(WWII) +2 recon +3 firepower can intercept air target
Bomber(WWII) +4 recon +2 firepower can bombard X3 vs ground target
Jet fighter(Me262,sabre jet) +2 recon +5 firepower can intercept
Multi-role jet(F4, F16,etc) +4 recon +7 firepower can intercept/bombard
Stealth fighter +4 recon +6 firepower can intercpet/bombard X2 ground target
Stealth bomber +5 recon +5 firepower can bombard X3 ground target

Air transport
Prop-engined +3 logistics
Jet-engined +4 logistics
Utility helicopter +1 logistics can be attached to ground unit

Misc. air
Early warning system +8 recon
Electronic warfare system 5 surrounding squares -50% enemy airforce FP power.
Attack helicopter +2 FP support X3 hard target
Anti-sub heli reveals enemy subs within 3 surrounding squares +1 naval support
Masking upgrade -3 enemy air unit firepower

Missiles
Early missiles +1 bombard
ICBMs(intercontinental balistic missiles)NBC warhead, MIRV upgrade,
IRBMs (Intermediate range balistic missiles)
NBC warhead,MIRV upgrade,
SLBMs: (Submarine launched balistic missiles)
NBC warhead,MIRV upgrade,
Cruise missiles +3 bombard, destroyes any target city improvement, NBC warhead
SAM/ATGM listed above(Misc. support section)

Misc. kit(used construction/irrigation,etc)
Stone tools allows settler function
Bronze tools +1 settler bonus
Iron tools +2 settler bonus
Tools(Industrial) +4 settler bonus
Tools(Modern) +5 settler bonus
Sapper kit allows "combat engineer function"
Animal powered +1 settler support
Machine powered +2 settler support
Bullet-proof vest +7 armour -1 mobility(inf only)
Kevlar +10 armour -1 mobility(inf only)

Any other suggestion would be welcome.

Contributors:Special thanks to Evil Capitalist and Thanks to Shadowstrike,Darkcloud,Biddles,Admiral Naismith,Stuff2(once he was a fan of unitworkshop ),Par4,Yuvo,ember. Also thanks to the Diplomat for his "recruitment" idea!
[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited August 30, 2000).]

[Youngsun]

"Why present unit stats should be changed?"
Problem:Archers/catapult can venture out alone with no inf escort!

:Conventional Att/def/FP/hit system of CivII should be phased out of service because CIVII has no concept of unit stack nor combined arms effect.

"How to encourage balanced unit stack?"
:Strong emphasis has to be put on each branch of service with distinctive bonus to make balanced unit stack more rewarding and profitable.

"How to implement right unit stats?"
:In broad definition, armed service can be divided by the line troops and support troops which support the line troops by all means. Line troops close combat capability can be represented by "Melee" and "Support" for other support troops.

"So what are those main branches of armed service?"
Ancient to early Rennaissance
Heavy Infantry(CivII examples:Phalanx,Legion)
Skirmisher
Missile troops(archers)
Shock troops(Knights,Crusaders)
Siege support(catapult,bombard)

Rennaissance to Modern
Infantry(riflemen,marine)
Recon
Artillery(Howitzer)
Armour(armour )
Air force
Navy
Strategic missile force
Logistics(very important branch but missing in CIVII)

More coming....
[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited August 16, 2000).]

[Youngsun]

"Basic unit workshop"

Basic unit represent a single man or tank with primary weapon and other equipment.

Examples

1 Ancinet man
Weapon:Bronze sword
Armour:Bronze armour
Extra:Bronze shield
Trained as(doctrine):Heavy Inf

Let's just call this type of man a "Hoplite"

1 Ancient man
Weapon:Composite bow
Armour:none
Extra:none
Trained as(doctrine):Missile troop

Let's just call him a "Archer"

Assuming that you armed/trained your 5121 men as hoplites and 832 men for archers now you can organise them as a military unit.


"Organisation workshop"
If the default set of Phalanx requires 3000 hoplites..

1st Army
1st Phalanx:3000 Hvy equipment:20 catapult(dismantled)
2nd Phalanx:2121(under manned)
1st Archer:832(under manned)

Note:Most of support arms can be attached to a unit as heavy equipments such as field artillery & AA gun. Also you may create a unit that is composed entirely of support arms but this has both advantage and disadvantage(No single aircraft will attack a unit comprised of only AA gun but a group of artillery/mobile rocket launcher can be very useful strategic tool-WWII Russian case)

Additional note:To prevent "unit abuse" there should be "minium men requirement" to be a decent sized unit. ie. No less than 500 men allowed for Phalanx unit.(thanks to Biddles)
[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited August 18, 2000).]

[Youngsun]

Brief history of weaponry
(Many thanks to Evil capitalist)

Firearms personnel
Arquebus- generic middle ages firearm c.1300-c.1550
Musket- Wheelocks, firelocks, early flintlock c.1550- 1715 (if I remember right)
Later musket- Flintlocks, bayonets with paper cartridges 1715- 1860
Early rifle- Flintlocks and percussion caps c1750- 1860
Breech loader rifles- bolt action, percussion cap with bullets not musket balls. 1860- 1890
Magazine rifle- Bolt action with magazine 1890- 1940
Semi Automatic rifle- Semi auto, like an M16 or AK47 1940- 2000
Advanced rifle- The stuff the US has just said it's going to buy with attatched grenade launcher-like weapon.

Armour
Basic tanks- 1917-1940: From MkI to Matilda. Mk I male version has guns and machine guns, female just machine guns. between world wars swivel turret appears, and side turrets disappear. Early engines go up to about 4 mph, by WW2 they can do c.20 (I think).
Heavy Tanks- 1920s-1950s: Conquorors, JS3s, etc. Heavy gun, slow movement, thick armour. Lose popularity when good, all round tanks appear.
'Blitzkrieg' tanks- 1935-1970s: Wider tracks, heavier guns than early tanks, but move considerably faster. Later ones include sloped armour, etc. examples: Tiger tanks, Shermans, T34s. Phased out in most armies by the 70s, but still in use in some areas.
MBTs (Main Battle Tanks)- 1945- : Tanks like the centurion, T55, M48 etc. faster, better armoured and better armed than WW2 tanks. Important step up in armourment for western tanks with the introduction of the L7 105mm gun. Many still in service today, forming the backbone of the majority of poorer nations' armoured divisions.
Modern tanks- 1970s- : The next generation of tanks, including M1s, Challengers, Leopard IIs. Make use of bigger guns (usually 120mm), better engines (usually capable of about 50mph), better ammunition (eg APFSDS- armour piercing fin stablisized discarding sabot) and advanced armour,, notably chobham (layers metals, ceramics and plastics designed to defeat APDS rounds).

Navy
Outrigger: Used by the polynesians to colonise loads of islands. Calm seas, must stay by coast, always a risk of loss.

Early merchant vessel: The boats you get sailing the mediteranean before the first proper navies develop.Calm seas.

Tririeme: A coverall term I'll use to cover all the multiple oar ships (they go to quinrieme). Developed by the Greeks and Tyre to beat the small vessels (like the merchant ships) that threatened them. Powered by slaves or criminals, and good in most weathers. They relied apon ramming and boarding for their damage, and carried marines for the purpose. Calm seas.
Special ability: Greek fire. Increases Greek fire was a napalm like substance that was sprayed onto ships. This was vital in Byzantium's naval defense. The secret of its composition was jealously guarded and now
lost. Increases firepower.

Longboat: The shallow bottomed vessels that carried raiders to foreign shores. I can't think of any engagement involving these, but they need to be included. Equipped with sails and oars the Viking longboat is a purpose built landing craft. These sailed to Newfoundland, the Black sea and the Levant.
They could travel up rivers, and few places near the coast were safe from them. Rough seas.

Galley: This was the vessel that appeared from the dark ages. Like a tririeme, but with more emphasis on the oars. Galleys formed the centre of the power of Venice and Genoa. Galleys saw battle as late as the Napoleonic war, and were only got rid of when steam allowed vessels to sail without wind. Although crewed by free men in Venice, they later became floating prisons with appauling conditions. Calm seas.

Cog: While merchant vessels in the mediteranean were light and fast, trade in the North sea required strong ships with wide beams and deep drafts. The cog provided that and because of their large cargo space soon replaced their mediteranean equivalents. They also required piers, leading to harbours being built. Rough seas, coastal.

Junk: The chinese merchant vessel was well designed and better than most western ships for centuries The sails were well configured for maneuvrability. Rough seas. Coastal

Dhow: The arab trade vessel. The sils were efficient, but the ship could not be turned without taking down the sail, requiring large crews or a straight course. Calm seas.

Battleship: This term is used for all large ships in the middle ages, but I don't know any other name so I'll use this. The very biggest vessels in medieval navies were called battleships, and were a symbol of a king's power. They usually had 'castles' at the front and back- forecastles and aftercastles. These would be packed with archers or occasionally a cannon. These ships would carry troops to a foreign shore, but would also provide an escort for smaller ships. Rough seas. Coastal.

Age of Discovery vessels. (all assumed to be rough seas and, unless stated otherwise, capable of sailing away from the coast)

Caravel: A trading vessel with improved sails over the longboat. This ship can sail in difficult situations.
Caravels were used to explore by Henry the Navigator, Christopher Columbus, Vasco de Gama and Ferdinand Magellan.

Carrack: A development of the caravel with three or four masts. Used square sails like the caravel and usually had a high fore- and aftercastles where artillery was mounted. Carracks were most famously used by the English to defeat the Spanish armada, being faster and more maneuverable. The carrack later developed into the frigate.

Galleon. Developed in 1570 by Sir John Hawkins by removing the forecastle from a carrack to improve handling. The name galleon was given to it by the Spanish, and it was used in the armada. The Galleon developed into the ship of the line.

Fluyte: Developed by the Dutch with a rounder hull to accommadate more cargo. This ship formed the backbone of trading fleets until the indiaman came along. The fluyte halped the dutch to secure the spice trade and become one of the greatest trading powers in world history.

Sloop: A small ship with about 20 guns. Sloops would be good pirateand anti pirate vessels if they are to be included in the game.

Frigate: Ships which had less guns than a ship of the line, but were more maneuvrable. Frigates were used for patrols and exploration, and were the fast ships in any squadron. Also like any other warship the frigate would be used in landings, and British frigates did well when they raided the French coast towards the end of the Napoleonic war.

Ship of the line: Varying from between around 70 guns to around 130 these were the backbone of fleets from their development (gradual but around 1680s if I had to commit myself to a date) to the 1860s. With the guns on three or more decks the ship of the line was usually employed in squadrons, although sometimes they operated on their own. To give an idea of the numbers in service the royal navy could boast over 150 dat the time of Nelson's death (the USN has only 110 submarines today, their most numerous vessel). The ship had several masts and vast sails (don't ask me for the names). Later they were equipped with steam engines and paddles, but retained the sails. It was only with the realisation of the strength of the ironclad that the SOL fell out of favour.
Special abilities: Heated cannon shot: Invented in the 1840s by a Frenchman the heated shot could cause a wooden ship to catch fire rapidly. Increased damage to wooden ships. Steam engine: Increased speed

Indiaman: This merchantman replaced the fluyte and became the dominant trader during the commercial revoltion. The size varied, but the ship serviced the east india companes well. Many a fortune was made when the indiaman someone had invested in arrived in port (hence "when my ship comes in")


Industrial age ships

Clipper ship: Fast and efficient the clipper first appeared in the early 19th century and lasted until the improved efficiency of steamboats made them no longer competitive

Early steamship: The most famous example of this is the SS Great Britain, but there are many others. These ships gradually came into prominance as the steam engine improved. Driven first by paddlewheels, then by screws, the steamship was well suited to routes in civilized areas.

Early Ironclad: The idea of a ship coated with iron was put forward in the 1850s by an Englishman. The admiralty did not want to start an arms race that would leave most of their ships out of date, so the idea was not taken up. However some were built by the USA, notably the monitor and the merrimac. When these two ships tried to destroy one another in the civil war taking hours to cause damage the battle was reported world wide. The winner, the monitor, then sank on it's way to be repaired. Coastal.

Early submarine: Although the first submarine was built in the 17th century the first time they were built in peacetime was in the mid 19th century. Extremely unsafe and prone to sinking, these vessels did not catch on until the turn of the 20th century. coastal, when out of port is very likely to get damaged.

Later Ironclad: After the victory of the Monitor all navies started to build ironclads. A few ironclads had been made before- notably the French La Gloire and the British Warrior. The royal navy at first cladded some ships of the line with iron. However soon they were purpose building the ships. These ironclads still used sails to save coal, but this gradually disappeared with the rise in coaling stations and the application of rotatable turrets.
Special abilities: Rotatable turrets: Although this resulted in a decrease in total firepower, the guns could be turned to face any direction, increasing their effect. This resulted in the removal of rigging and other problematic parts, although that had little effect on performance.

Cruiser: This ship was an improvement on the newer ironclads, and was the first sort of vessel to look like a modern warship. First classified by the British in 1887, but dating back about 20 years more. Fast and with medium armament, the first ones were built with sails and steam, such as HMS Shah in 1868, and made of iron (later steel). They soon became better protected with armoured decks and shields for machinary and magazines. These protected cruisers were replaced with armoured cruisers, which were used for raiding merchants and scouting. After WW1 the cruiser became the dominant vessel, with large guns and a considerable AA ability. The cruiser finally went into decline in the missile age- being much more expensive than frigates and destroyers, but not much more powerful.
Special abilities: see modern abilities(below)

Battleship: the term was coined by the royal Navy for a ship of over 74 guns. However it would come to mean one of the largest ships afloat. In 1871 the British launched HMS Devastation- with no sails and four guns in two turrets. The size of guns rapidly increased to above 12", the displacement grew and the engines became faster. However early battleships were not so good at hitting their targets, and were vulnerable to mines.
However in 1906 HMS Dreadnought was launched making all other battleships obselete and starting an arms race to build massive dreadnoughts. The rangefining was improved, the speed greater, the guns more powerful and the armour as thick as any other ship of the time. However they were still vulnerable to submarines, and that is how most of them were lost. Their vulnerability to aerial attack was discovered but ignored in the 1920s. The ships became more costly and less practical. Aircraft carriers proved more deadly in WW2 and Britain scrapped her last battleship, the King George V, in the 1950s. America recently recommissioned four Ohio class battleships (I think), which made appearances in the Lebnanon and the Iraqi war.
Special abilities: see below

Battlecruiser: A ship that was meant to provide the speed of the cruiser and the power of the battleship. The first one was laid down in 1906, capable of 25 knots and with 8 12" guns. The battlecruiser could sink a battleship, but had little armour, making it rely on its speed for protection. The ships' vulnerability was proven at the battle of Jutland, where German battlecruisers, with thicker armour, lasted considerably longer in the fray. Of the three the Royal navy retained two were sunk in 1941, one to japanese planes and another to the German battleship Bismark.

Submarines: The fully submersable sub appeared in the 1880s. This, when equipped with torpedos, was a deadly menace to shipping. In 1895 a new version appeared with a combined steam and electric power system. The power of submarines was demonsrated in WW1, when they became a major instrument of blockade. The most famous use of submarines were the German U boats. These brought Britain close to defeat with their attacks on British and American convoys.
The first nuclear submarine was built in 1955 was the start of the uclear submarines. The submarines of today fall into two catagories- standard and missile. Standard submarines are intended to blockade and attack shipping. Missile submarines carry nuclear weapons, such as the Polaris and Trident systems. Special abilities: Engine choice: Steam+electic/ Diesel+electric/ hydrogen peroxide fuel*/ nuclear reactor. Air rebreather: A far more efficient way to reuse air in an enclosed environment. Stealthy: Minimises heat, sonar and electronic emisions, making the sub much harder to detect.

Destroyer: The first destroyers were unarmoured torpedo boats, but later they started to be fitted depth charges and given light armour as well. They soon became escort vessels, capable of dealing with submarines and aircraft. In the 1950s they came to be equiped with rockets and radar, and gradually they became the main surface vessel of most fleets.
Special options: see below.

Frigate: The name of this class is the same as the Napoleonic ship. The ship was developed in an ASW capacity during WW2 to protect convoys. The ship has risen to become the largest class of ship in most navies (excluding the carrier). Originally equiped with small deck guns and depth charges, they now have anti-ship missiles like the exocet and seawolf.
Special abilities: See below

Carrier: The first purpose built aircraft carrier was HMS Ark Royal (the third of seven IIRC). This launched its aircraft from the water, and was soon outdated by the full carrier, with take off and landing possible on deck. Development happened between the wars, mainly thanks to arms limitation treaties limiting battleships, and the new designs culminated in the fleets that took part in Pearl Harbour and the battle of Midway. The armoured flight deck was introduced by the British at this time (giving the Kamikazes who crashed into these decks a shock). After the war The British introduced the steam ctapult, allowing the carrier to finally become a floating airfield, capable of launching the air armadas of today. One of the newer developments of carriers has been the VTOL carrier, which is cheaper than a fleet carrier, but can still provide a base for large air attacks, as proved in the Falklands. There are also new carriers, called amphibious ships, that carry only helicopters and marines.
Special abilities: Engines: as other 20th century ships. Armoured deck: makes the ship a lot less vulnerable. AA countermeasures: makes the ship less vulnerable to aerial and missile attacks. Steam catapult: allows all fighters/fighter bombers to use carrier.

Liner: Between 1870 and 1900 the time it took to cross the Atlantic halved. Speed and size increased dramatically. Liners and huge steamships were the foundations on which the modern world was built. These ships service global empires and worldwide trading systems.

Container ship: In the 1960s containerisation revolutionised the merchant fleets of the world. Whereas before the ships had been of a single cargo, the idea that containers on a huge ship could be sold to anyone meant massive vessels with enormous cargoes. This spelt the end for many docks, which were too shallow to hold the ships. London docks, the busiest in the world in 1900, was completly shut down by 1980.

Trimarin: This is a new development, just ending trial stages, which uses a revolutionary three hull design to increase speed and decrease fuel consumption.
Special abilities: See below

Stealth boat: This is under development by at least the USN and RN. The idea is to have a ship invisable to radar, and which can thereby regain the element of surprise in naval warfare.
Special Abilites: God knows.

Special abilities for 20th century ships:

Engines: Steam turbine engine. Gas/oil turbine. Nuclear reactor.

ASW abilities: Torpedos, sonar etc.: spot and attack submarines in adjacent squares. (made more effective with Sonar)

ASW helicopter: Many ships today are equipped with helicopters, which can carry torpedoes to a detected submarine without giving away the position of the ship. Combat *2 vs Submarines.

Spotter plane: Popular in WW2 ships, these were used to keep track of the battle and report of shot accuracy before radars and computers. See 2 squares. +1 firepower

Electronic aids: Does all the processing of data and collects it all in one room. See 2 squares, +1 firepower (cheaper than plane)

Fibre-optic link: Allows ships to maximise communication. further +1 firepower.

Missile launch facilities: Allows a ship to launch cruise missiles.

AA countermeasures: AA missiles and chainguns give a ship almost total protection from aerial and missile attack.

Missiles
Early missiles: V1s, V2s. Cause little damage due to the poor guidance systems.

ICBMs (intercontinental balistic missiles): Designed to deliver a nuclear warhead halfway across the globe. Revolutionised by the introduction of solid fuel, meaning they could be left ready to launch, without needing to be filled up first.

IRBMs (Intermediate range balistic missiles): The backbone of most nuclear deterants. These are the things on the back of trucks that get paraded around. Meant for in theatre war- but often have a range of several thousand miles.

SLBMs: (Submarine launched balistic missiles)Submarine launched weapons, meant to strike anywhere, with less cost than an ICBM. USA, USSR and Britain have these.

Cruise missiles: Designed to deliver low level nuclear strikes, the cruise missile came to be the best method of damaging a target without collateral damage or putting friendly lives at risk. They were greatly improved by GPS networks and other precision surveying.

special ability for ICBMs and SLBMs: multiple warhead system: To economise on their nuclear forces some powers use multiple warhead missiles.
[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited August 18, 2000).]

[Youngsun]

Updated....

[DarkCloud]

I still think this is too complicated but here goes:

So in Civ III there will be a screen say which looks like this:
------------------------
| Branch of Service / Armor Type
|
|
| Composition of Unit / Weapons
|
|
| Shield
|
|
|
|
| SAVE RETURN TO CITY SCREEN W/O SAVING
-------------------------
On the screen there will be choices:

Branch of Service:
Wherefore you select Ancient Infantry (Warrior), Heavy Infantry etc.
Depending on 'Composition of Unit' choices you will have the option to choose 1,2,or 3 Branch
of Services (BoS)
Composition of Unit:
Here you will select weather the unit will be dispersed between
1,2,or 3 different weapon/armor/branch of service combinations
Armor Type:
Select your armor type, Bronze, Chain-Mail (Archer's armor), etc.
Weapons:
Wherefore you can select your Sword of Shining Truth, Sword +1 and the ever-present
Enchanted Elven Sword. (Just Joking... Huh..huh..get it, get it all you D&D fans!)
Shield:
This will be a box where you can check yes or no to. It will be disabled if you check
two weapons for each branch of service. The shield will be the most up-to-date shield
Say a Bronze shield, Wooden Shield, Iron shield, etc.

All will be drop-down menues unless mentioned.

Are there any problems with this method Youngsun?
[This message has been edited by DarkCloud (edited August 19, 2000).]

[Shadowstrike]

Well, technically, the more ancient the people that better fighters they are (primal instincts) but at some point training can overcome this.

[Youngsun]

Darkcloud

I'm not sure what "Branch of Service Armor Type" means. I think they have to be separated.

Men/Chassis/Hull
Branch(I prefer doctrine)
Weapon
Shield(I prefer Armour)
Extra(or special)

I reckon Unit workshop should be able to make a basic unit as well as an organisation such as Infnatry division.

At basic unit level, you can design your combat personnel or crews then at organisation level, you can customise your Infnatry division or naval vessels by using these personnel,Heavy equipment,special upgrade,etc somewhat similar to that of MOO unit workshop.

Once you designed your divisions and such you can assign them as army or fleet so battle will be conducted at army/army group or fleet level.

Due to revolutionary changes in military related technologies after Gunpowder, consistant stats(Att/Def/FP/hit)through Ages can't handle the wars fought after Gunpowder properly which means new stat like Firepower should be allowed only to the units after Gunpowder.

If you think there are any area within the list which needs more simplification/generalisation just let me know so we can discuss about it. OK?

Shadowstrike

I changed the Primitive/ancient men melee to 2. Anything else you think we need to review?

[Urban Ranger]

Youngsun,

Good work, though I have yet to look at it closely.

[Youngsun]

Thank you Urban Ranger

Anything,you think ,needs to be reviewed please let me know.

[Biddles]

The army compoition could be abused. If I make 100 units each with 1 soldier in them, they would not be able to withstand an attack from anything but I would then have 100 exploration units.


------------------
- Biddles

"Now that our life-support systems are utilising the new Windows 2027 OS, we don't have to worry about anythi......."
Mars Colonizer Mission

[Shadowstrike]

I think that the Primative man should get +1 to movement (hunting skills) but also see to it that modern men get some advenatage too.

[Youngsun]

Biddles

Good point Biddles!

How about "minium strength requirement" for a combat unit? Any unit which has less men than the requirement would vanish then the retired men would return to the "National manpower pool".

Any other suggestion?

P.S. I made additional note for basic unit workshop section. thank you.

Shadowstrike

I reckon generally Ancient men are fitter than their primitive counterparts considering higher nutritional intake and athletic habits(of course it depends on what culture they belong to but I wanted to simplify it)

Modern men's advantage will be the ability to use all modern weaponry which is something Rennaissance/Ancient men can not have. Can you think of any other bonus for Modern men?

Any other suggestion?

P.S. I added "Privateer" thank you for the clue "P"
[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited August 18, 2000).]

[Shadowstrike]

Generally, if Primative men were hunters and ancient men farmers, the primative men were taller and stronger, while the ancient men were shorter and marginally stouter but suffered from a variety of diseases. How about making the growth rate of ancient men higher, but making primative men stronger?

[Evil Capitalist]

Technically a privateer is a state sponsored ship that raids enemy merchants, but is not part of the fleet. They are fast and not too well armed.

[DarkCloud]

Sorry Youngsun, I meant for those words to be seperated.

I may contribute more so I am saving this thread (It is too long to read now) and will read it later.

[Youngsun]

Shadowstrike

I get the impression while I'm portraying;
Primitive men(Aborigines,Ainu,Tupi,etc)
Ancient men (Greeks,Romans,etc)
,You are portraying
Primitive men(Germans,Celts,etc)
Ancient men(Persians,Numidians,etc)

I regard those Germanic tribes and Celtic ones barbaric but not necessarily primitive becasue they knew how to farm and breed live stocks(relatively more regular nutritional intake than that of real primitive ones)

Furthermore physical strength doesn't always equate the close combat capability of the men(big modern men can be easily beaten by smaller but more resilient ancient couterparts at battlefield)

I believe Ancient era(ancient~medieval)was the peak or Golden age of men fighting in that manner(melee) Remember "melee" represents close combat capability not physical strength. "Mobility" too not necessariliy men's moves but marching ability under combat situation.

As you said growth rate of ancient men should be higher than that of primitive men nice suggestion. any more suggestion?

Evil capitalist

Do you want "Sloop" and "Privateer" get combined?

Darcloud

Take your time mate!
[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited August 20, 2000).]

[Evil Capitalist]

That was the general idea- best to save on clutter (besides- it would help the newbies to have the pirates using the same ships as them)

[Youngsun]

Evil Capitalist

I combined those two into one. (+1 naval melee -1 firepower)

Any more area which needs more generalisation?
[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited August 21, 2000).]

[Evil Capitalist]

I think you've got everything there. Let us hope Firaxis will read it.

[DarkCloud]

First off I will say, my gosh this topic is long, almost too long.

However here are some other ideas:

Modern Man Bonus- Cloning so when you build one modern man basic unit you get two.
[I admit this is a little strange but it might work]
Modern Man Bonus- If brought up in a warrior sibko (Battletech) then they would have
an attack bonus. The Warrior Sibko could be an improvement.
Has anyone here read 'Battletech'. If so perhaps you could explain
the improvement better.

Prehistoric Ideas:
(You can use 2 of the modules at one time, correct? 2 Weapons or 1 Weapon 1 Armor?)
Wooden Shield- +1 Armor (This should be for the prehistoric because it was invented then)
Gigantic Axe- +4 Melee -1 Mobility
Jagged Sword- +2 Melee

Ancient Ideas:

Full-Body Shield- +3 Armor -2 Mobility
Crossbow- +3 Support
"Fire" Sword (A sword to be heaved like a javelin and start a fire)- +3 Melee

Transport Ideas:

Mule- +1 Support; they have all their supplies within easy access so their morale is boosted.

Infantry Primary Ideas:

Blunderbus- +1 Firepower +1 Melee
Dual Pistols- +5 Firepower +3 Melee
Automatic Pistols- +8 Firepower +3 Melee

Armor Ideas:

Leonardo's Tank- (Drawn by horses) +5 Armor, +4 Firepower

Siege Support Ideas:

Siege Tower- +2 seige support (Wall Assault)
Engineers- +1 seige support (Tunnels)
Ladders- +1 seige support (Grappling Hooks)
Germ Warfare- +2 seige support (Carcasses thrown over walls)
Fire- +2 seige support (Thrown over by Catapults etc.)

Siege Defense Ideas:

Scalding Oil- +2 siege defense against Ladders
Pikes Jutting out from walls- +2 siege defense against Siege Tower
Wooden Covering over walls- -1 siege defense against fire +2 against Germ Warfare

Navy:

Canoe- +1 Movement (Can only traverse rivers)
There should be a ship unable, past its third turn to navigate coastal waters.
It must be serviced in the water.

Air:

Masking- Blanks out all radar screens. Is invisible. +8 recon. A U-2 for instance.

Misc.:

Specialist Settlers should be able to have advantages at each of the various jobs
Irrigation/Farmland
Roads/Railroads
Airbases/etc.

Say, If they are a specialist they get a +3 to +4 bonus.

Well, that's about all for now.
However the way you have things running now Civ will shift from a tactical/city management
game to a unit building/unit management game, which is all very well and good for a
completely new game, but not Civ. This system need to be simpler. Not that I am saying
that it isn't good, it just would not fit civ.

[Evil Capitalist]

Fire sword? I'm not too good on ancient weaponry but I don't think this was used (e.g. in Germany, like gladiator)
Leanardo's tank- If we're to have that we also need the steam driven tank proposed to the British in the Crimea. If it didn't get built it shouldn't be in the game.
Cavalry used dual pistols, not infantry. In fact during the rennaiscence infantry warfare was reduced to pike and musket.
The castle's wooden coverings were called hoardings and were covered with fireproof leather. Actually- it might be interesting to have fortification units- I'll post a new thread about it).
That canoe is the same as the outrigger I suggested, I chose the outrigger because of its importance to the polynesians.

[Youngsun]

quote: Modern Man Bonus- Cloning so when you build one modern man basic unit you get two. [I admit this is a little strange but it might work]

We'not sure whether complete Human cloning will have sound legal ground to be permitted for general practice except the body organ usage thing.

quote: a warrior sibko (Battletech)

Hmmm? further explanation needed..

quote: Gigantic Axe- +4 Melee -1 Mobility Jagged Sword- +2 Melee

Do we really need "Gigantic Axe" and "Jagged sword"? I thought you wanted the list more generalised/simplified and I'd like to do that too. Do those weapons have any historic significance?

quote: Full-Body Shield- +3 Armor -2 Mobility

I'm guessing on this. Exactly which tribe used this? Goth? or Frank?

the list already has "Crossbow"

quote: "Fire" Sword (A sword to be heaved like a javelin and start a fire)- +3 Melee

Pardon me for my ignorance but I never heard of it. Any reference or historical impact of this weapon? or any major battle fought with this? or which civ used it?

quote: Mule- +1 Support; they have all their supplies within easy access so their morale is boosted.

Marius's mule can have that function too.(was it 3~4 days of supply?)

quote: Blunderbus- +1 Firepower +1 Melee, Dual Pistols- +5 Firepower +3 Melee, Automatic Pistols- +8 Firepower +3 Melee

Could you explain what is "Blunderbus"? a relative to Arquebus?

Like Evil capitalist said, handguns and later carbines are usually cavalry weapon.

quote: Leonardo's Tank- (Drawn by horses) +5 Armor, +4 Firepower

I can't accept that sorry. The tank begins its history from WWI.

For siege support, things other than "Germ warfare" should be under catapult/trebuchet category which represents all siege crafts of ancient/medieval era. Like Mobile warfare, Germ warfare should be concept or doctrine not a unit module.

Shouldn't Anti-siege crafts be part of city defence upgrade rather than a unit module?

"Canoe" is in the list named as Outrigger.

quote: Masking- Blanks out all radar screens. Is invisible. +8 recon. A U-2 for instance.

Could you reveal the name of this device/component? or is this just technique?

quote: Specialist Settlers should be able to have advantages at each of the various jobs

Isn't all-round settler enough for the game?

quote: Civ will shift from a tactical/city management game to a unit building/unit management game,

How could you say that!!!!!
Without separating weapons and men how can we accomodate "mobilisation" idea?
Without having weapons as trade goods how can we handle the "arms trade" idea?
Without separating "civilian" and "military" how can we simulate social impact of a war?

We all know there will be significant improvement on other aspects of the game(Diplomacy to trade)and most of ideas should come together as complete working body . Do we really want a replica of "CivII military features" ,which is kind of an insult to many intelligent people here,appear again in CivIII? If that happens I will never buy CivIII. If any of you like CivII style military aspect, fine, play CivII but don't interfere to make Civ3.0 something like Civ2.5.

Do I sound like warmonger? Perhaps somebody do feel that way but that's the proof of their ignorance of human history which is full of war stories. Actually my play style is close to perfectionist one and I like peaceful expansion and enjoy diplomacy more than raging a war but once I rage a war I want it represented as historically correct as possible with lots of fun.

P.S. I added "pistol" and "carbine" thank you.
[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited August 24, 2000).]

[Youngsun]

Sorry Darcloud I was so fed up with some other posters and released the anger to you. Do not think I'm angry with you because I'm not.
[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited August 24, 2000).]

[Youngsun]

*Unit stats evaluation*

Present unit stats are too rigid thus can't handle changing warfare properly. Unit stats should be flexible to meet the rapid changes of all sort of warfare. Some stats should be obsolete such as "Ancient melee" while others will be introduced later in the game such as "firepower".

Ancient Ground Warfare
Ancient Melee: hand to hand combat capability
Ancient support: firepower which is designed to support Ancient melee
Ancient armour:armour which is designed to repel Ancient missile(support)barrage.
Mobility:universal throughout all age

Modern Ground Warfare
Melee:the same as the Ancient one
Firepower: firepower based on firearms
Support: firepower support which is designed to support modern combat unit
Armour: armour which is designed to repel modern firepower attack
Mobility: universal throughout all age

Ancient Naval Warfare
Naval melee:close naval combat capability
Hull: hit points of the ship
Mobility:crusing speed
Sea access: (Coastal/calm sea/rough sea/Ocean)

note: No "naval support" in Ancient naval warfare.

Modern Naval Warfare
Naval firepower: total firepower of each vessel.
Naval support/ground support: long range fire support.
Hull: hit points of the ship
Armour: Ship armour which is designed to repel naval gun barrage/air attack.
Mobility:crusing speed.

note: No "sea access" in Modern naval warfare.

Air Warfare
Dogfight: close air combat ability
Firepower: Aircraft firepower
Air/ground/naval support: support bonus for various branches
Range: operational range

More coming.....
[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited August 24, 2000).]

[SWPIGWANG The Second]

I guess I'll have to quote on why your idea is totally SCREWED UP.

quote: Ours is a world where technological progress in general, and military-technological progress in particular, is often taken for granted. For as long as any individual alive today can remember, new devices have been coming off the assembly lines in an uninterrupted stream; as a result, it has become very difficult to imagine a world in which such advances did not take place and in which old, rather than new, was usually better. And yet, if we go back before 1500, that is precisely the world in which we find ourselves. Alexander the Great was presented with a suit of armour guaranteed to be of Trojan War vintage; which supposedly 900-year-old contraption he then proceeded to wear to battle....The warrors whom we meet in the early medieval chansons de geste did not appreciate new weapons either. Quite the contrary; very often the best weapons were considered to be old ones which supposedly had belonged to famous heroes now dead; and indeed the longer the 'genealogy' associated with any sword, the higher the value which was attached to it and the higher also the price that it could command. On a less anecdotal level, consider the history of fortification. Looking at the reliefs made for the Assyrain King Sanherib in order to commemorate the siege of Lachish in Judaea in 701BC....Without exception, all these elements (in the fortess in Judaea) were still present in medieval fortresses, such as thos constructed by Edward I in Wales around AD1300. What is true for the art of fortification is, not surprisingly, also true of siege technology. In the hands of the Greeks and Romans, this technology advanced rapidly between 400 and 200BC, after whcih it stagnated....The only new device added by the Middle Ages was the trebuchet....As a result, a capable Roman military engineer of the time of Marcellus (210BC)...would have felt himself quite at home in any siege operation before the invention of artillery; and might, indeed, have had something to teach his generally less competent successors. Passing form sieges to field warfare, we likewise find that the most important iron-made weapons-the mace, the sword, the spear, the lance, the pike, the javelin, and the axe in various forms-had all been invented by 600Bc (at the latest) and changed little thereafter. So had the bow in its various forms; and, of course, the various forms of body armour, such as shields, brestplates,helmets,greaves. Depending on tactical needs as well as cultural factors, all these weapons and devices were to assume a bewildering variety of ofrms and shapes. However, from pre-classical Greek times to late medieval ones not one of them underwent fundamental changes, and the great majority even remained in use rught down to the dawn of the modern age. Sixteenth- and even seventeenth century commanders...received a classical education. Consequently they were well aware of these similarities, as indeed they were supposed to be: given that the weapons that they used were sometimes almost identical to those of the ancients, they deliberately attempted to model their own armies on those of the Greeks and the Romans. Such was the case of the Swiss and German pikemen, the Spanish sword-and-buckler men, and the Dutch battalions. So obvious were the parallels, and so slow and sporadic )owing to the absence of a good theoretical framework) the technological progress, that even as late as 1724 a Frenchman, the chevalier de Folard, could write a famous textbook on tactics in which he advocated a return to the Macedonian formation of pikemen. The Oxford Illustrated History of Modern War P.175-178

Lets play around with this till after the age of reason and the industrial revolution Ok.

[SWPIGWANG The Second]

I guess I'll have to quote on why your idea is totally SCREWED UP.

quote: Ours is a world where technological progress in general, and military-technological progress in particular, is often taken for granted. For as long as any individual alive today can remember, new devices have been coming off the assembly lines in an uninterrupted stream; as a result, it has become very difficult to imagine a world in which such advances did not take place and in which old, rather than new, was usually better. And yet, if we go back before 1500, that is precisely the world in which we find ourselves. Alexander the Great was presented with a suit of armour guaranteed to be of Trojan War vintage; which supposedly 900-year-old contraption he then proceeded to wear to battle....The warrors whom we meet in the early medieval chansons de geste did not appreciate new weapons either. Quite the contrary; very often the best weapons were considered to be old ones which supposedly had belonged to famous heroes now dead; and indeed the longer the 'genealogy' associated with any sword, the higher the value which was attached to it and the higher also the price that it could command. On a less anecdotal level, consider the history of fortification. Looking at the reliefs made for the Assyrain King Sanherib in order to commemorate the siege of Lachish in Judaea in 701BC....Without exception, all these elements (in the fortess in Judaea) were still present in medieval fortresses, such as thos constructed by Edward I in Wales around AD1300. What is true for the art of fortification is, not surprisingly, also true of siege technology. In the hands of the Greeks and Romans, this technology advanced rapidly between 400 and 200BC, after whcih it stagnated....The only new device added by the Middle Ages was the trebuchet....As a result, a capable Roman military engineer of the time of Marcellus (210BC)...would have felt himself quite at home in any siege operation before the invention of artillery; and might, indeed, have had something to teach his generally less competent successors. Passing form sieges to field warfare, we likewise find that the most important iron-made weapons-the mace, the sword, the spear, the lance, the pike, the javelin, and the axe in various forms-had all been invented by 600Bc (at the latest) and changed little thereafter. So had the bow in its various forms; and, of course, the various forms of body armour, such as shields, brestplates,helmets,greaves. Depending on tactical needs as well as cultural factors, all these weapons and devices were to assume a bewildering variety of ofrms and shapes. However, from pre-classical Greek times to late medieval ones not one of them underwent fundamental changes, and the great majority even remained in use rught down to the dawn of the modern age. Sixteenth- and even seventeenth century commanders...received a classical education. Consequently they were well aware of these similarities, as indeed they were supposed to be: given that the weapons that they used were sometimes almost identical to those of the ancients, they deliberately attempted to model their own armies on those of the Greeks and the Romans. Such was the case of the Swiss and German pikemen, the Spanish sword-and-buckler men, and the Dutch battalions. So obvious were the parallels, and so slow and sporadic )owing to the absence of a good theoretical framework) the technological progress, that even as late as 1724 a Frenchman, the chevalier de Folard, could write a famous textbook on tactics in which he advocated a return to the Macedonian formation of pikemen. The Oxford Illustrated History of Modern War P.175-178

Lets play around with this till after the age of reason and the industrial revolution Ok.

[DarkCloud]

Okay, well now that I have been humbled:

Fire Sword

-Well a "fire" sword may or may not have been used. I am just estimating.
I believe that it may have been used
I think in Harry Turtledove's "The Videoss Cycle" Books used it (He majored in history)
Although he may have invented it, I think not.
-It would work like so; you realize in the Middle Ages how they would strap burning carcasses to the catapults and let them fly infecting and firing the people of the cities at the same time, well the fire sword would have a dove or such on fire impaled on the sword and it would be thrown to make confusion etc.

Warrior Sibko

This is from a distant future set of books set in the 2400's. A warrior sibko works like so. The warriors are brought up made from genetic materials of older warriors melded together to create perfect fighting machines. (This could be altered to regularly born warriors) Then they are set into rigorous training exercises. They will learn hand to hand when they are 7, and eventually work up to piloting a battlemech (Mechwarrior, or one of the rip-offs ie. Cyberstorm, Heavy Metal Gear) which is a massive fighting machine.

In the end they will compete with each other to beat three battlemechs with one and try to compile the highest score. the ones who have the highest score become the perfect warriors.

A Note: Sibkos start with 50 and by age 8 they have roughly 30 then at age 13 when the training really becomes intense they are down to possibly 10 and when the final trial comes they are reduced to 2-6

They are encouraged to kill eachother honorably. I.e. on equal grounds

Gigantic...

Well I guess we dont need Gigantic axe or sword.

Full Body Shield

I believe the Goths used it. However I got this idea from Dungeons and Dragons. Yet it is a sound idea, it is natural progression.
Carry shield, Archers shield (Full body) and a regular infantry body shield,

Technically I believe the Greeks used this if you look at some documentaries on PBS, they would advance with a large curved wooden shield that was larger than most shields. I believe the ones who used this were called hoplites or something else.

Blunderbus

I believe this is a real weapon, or so the movies bid me believe.

I have seen it used in
-Time Warp
-Pirates
-And almost any Pirate Movie

It works like so: it is probably truly called an Arequbus but it just sounded better as a Blunderbus: However, It is loaded like a gun. It is one of the first rifles. It shoots off like a cannon and recoils into your arm. The 'ball' of the gun is like a cannon ball and is about two inches by three or so I believe.

I am pretty sure this weapon is real for it has been mentioned so many times.

Leonardo's Tank

He really DID design this tank and perhaps build this along with the first hang-glider. Yes the first hang-glider, the Italians invented it in the 1500's, not the Germans in the 1800's.

However the Germans invented many great things.

Masking

The F-22 Phantom's in the Airforce use this I believe, it jams the radar-signals so they do not believe or register anything in the sky in the area.

Specialist Settlers

Wouldn't it just be better to have a settler, like real life people, be specialized for then he could work better at one thing and worse at another.

We could merely have a specialist good at Roads, Railroads, Fortresses, Airbases
and a specialist good at Irrigation, Farmland.

[Youngsun]

SWPIGWANG The Second

Exactly which part of my idea is totally screwed up? Please specify and I have no disagreement with your quotes which I'm aware of very well even before I suggested this idea(You wouldn't think I didn't know about that would you?)Military doctrine/tech are not in revolutionary change during the Dark Age with many cases which showed revival of the classics with few exceptions such as advanced forging techniques,etc. Also many Ancient weapons don't have clear date when they were invented. If you don't like the system when a specific tech(ie.mathmatics)allows a specific unit/weapon(ie.catapult)and other specific tech(ie.metallugy)make old tech obsolete blame whole Civ series and other history related strategic games because it is them who pioneered this system and I'm just following their footsteps.
[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited August 25, 2000).]

[Youngsun]

quote: -Well a "fire" sword may or may not have been used. I am just estimating. I believe that it may have been used I think in Harry Turtledove's "The Videoss Cycle" Books used it (He majored in history) Although he may have invented it, I think not. -It would work like so; you realize in the Middle Ages how they would strap burning carcasses to the catapults and let them fly infecting and firing the people of the cities at the same time, well the fire sword would have a dove or such on fire impaled on the sword and it would be thrown to make confusion etc.

Shouldn't they be "fire arrow" or "torch"(or something disposable)? Throwing expensive swords like that seems quite a waste of valuable metal resource. Furthermore it has nothing to do with the main usage of a sword(melee).

quote: This is from a distant future set of books set in the 2400's. A warrior sibko works like so. The warriors are brought up made from genetic materials of older warriors melded together to create perfect fighting machines. (This could be altered to regularly born warriors) Then they are set into rigorous training exercises. They will learn hand to hand when they are 7, and eventually work up to piloting a battlemech (Mechwarrior, or one of the rip-offs ie. Cyberstorm, Heavy Metal Gear) which is a massive fighting machine.

OK! Sounds fun. How would you like to implement this(as a "man" or "weapon")? Could you think of somthing for near future? As you know most of civ fans don't like things from far future including me.

For full body shield, since shields are categorised by wooden/bronze/iron, introducing things like "full body shield" will force the list to add more shape/size specific shields such as Greek hoplon.

quote: It shoots off like a cannon and recoils into your arm. The 'ball' of the gun is like a cannon ball and is about two inches by three or so I believe.

Aha! I think I've seen it before! how weird looking firearm it was ridiculously big caliber with such a short barrel. I'm sorry it's not a infantry primary firearm. Again if we begin to accept supplementarythings like that we have to accept HMG/inf mortar/Inf gun/RPG/AT rifle/HE/AT recoiless/Grenade/AGL/etc. which I intend to be represented with primary ones thus a modern army unit, armed with assault rifles, is persumed to be fully equiped with inf-mortar/machine gun/AGL/etc. I better call those muskets as "Napoleonic inf firearm set" or Assault rifles as "Advanced inf firearms set".

quote: He really DID design this tank and perhaps build this along with the first hang-glider.

Did Leonardo's tank seen in action at any battlefield of that period? The Koreans invented World first Ironclad(turtle ship) during 16th century and these ships served in Korean Navy and seen in many actions which varies in scale from 30 to 500 warships. However I did not include this in the list to simplify the ironclad class.

I'll add "Masking" upgrade Thank you.

For the "settler/worker function", I see the mobilised civilians for grand project as temporary workforce which soon to be discharged to return to their real job(mostly farming) and modern ones may represent construction companies which can generally build railroad/port/highway/tunnel/etc. Do we really need to differentiate construction company's speciality?

Thanks