Does the failure of civ III show Brian reynolds is the true genius of civgame design?

Alexander's Horse · April 2, 2002, 20:55

Brian left the Civ III project at an early stage. He is regarded as the real brains behind CivII. Civ II is a classic. Civ III isn't. But Civ I is a classic too!

I think the answer is obvious

Ethelred · April 2, 2002, 21:09

I gather you haven't actually played the board game. Cause the resemblance mostly ends with the name.

Civilization the first IS a classic. Sid did that. He didn't base it on the board game. He claims he didn't even play it till after he finished the game. Based on the game he produced its certainly possible he only heard about it.

It wasn't even an Avalon Hill game to begin with. It was a Brittish game. If you ever saw the mess Avalon Hill produced when they tried to make a civ game you consider Sid the greatest genius in history. It was called Incanabula and was nearly as buggy as Battle Cruiser Millenium 2000. Before Derek Smart fixed it.

Brian did a great job with Civ II. Sid did a great job with Civ I. Civ III is pretty good but neither of those two did much work on it. Brian however did a great job of wrecking the start on it. I understand not wanting to work on something you don't have your heart in but the fact is he wrecked many months of work when he left.

Inverse Icarus · April 2, 2002, 21:11

brian brian brian

i cant wait for Brian Reynolds' Civilization 4.

Alexander's Horse · April 2, 2002, 21:14

Ethelred - thanks for the clarification - I took out the board game troll. I don't want it distracting from the topic.

asleepathewheel · April 2, 2002, 21:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Civ III isn't.

yet

how long does it take for a game to become a classic?
surely more than 5 months

I don't know the story, so perhaps I am off base, but I have little respect for someone who is the lead designer on a program and leaves halfway through its completion, causing the whole thing to go back to the drawing board. So while I loved Civ2 and enjoyed Smax, I have to vote for sid, because, after all civ2 was just a rehashed civ with new graphics and some new units.

Dan Magaha FIRAXIS · April 2, 2002, 22:19

There is no Dana, only Zuul.

Dan

Sandman · April 2, 2002, 22:28

Don't worship Brian Reynolds as some sort of gaming god, you'll only be disapointed.

Alexander's Horse · April 2, 2002, 22:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
There is no Dana, only Zuul.

Dan

So, Dan, do you honestly think Civ III is up there with Civ I and II?

(I'd like an honest answer please)

asleepathewheel · April 2, 2002, 22:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Sandman
Don't worship Brian Reynolds as some sort of gaming god, you'll only be disapointed.

especially when the AOE knock off comes out.

Inverse Icarus · April 2, 2002, 23:01

where the fudge did dan magaha come from? i thought he started hiding when i ranted about multiplayer? where'd he go...

.... mumbles about sombrero ...

Dan Magaha FIRAXIS · April 2, 2002, 23:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse

So, Dan, do you honestly think Civ III is up there with Civ I and II?

(I'd like an honest answer please)

Senator Horsie, it depends on what your definition of "is" is.

Dan Magaha FIRAXIS · April 2, 2002, 23:16

Fascinating thread, BTW. So far the IQ (Ignore Quotient) of the thread is just just under 20%. If it heats up tomorrow I'll bet it tops 60%...

Dan

Skanky Burns · April 2, 2002, 23:24

Lol Dan

Civ 3 (still) has a rushed, incomplete feel to it.
And who had a major impact on the Civ 3 development project?
brian brian brian

Perhaps once its finished (scenarios, editor, maybe even a little thing called multiplayer), Civ 3 will rank up there with Civ 2.

ALPHA WOLF 64 · April 2, 2002, 23:49

Dan,
personally I think the game is great except for 2 major problems: AI tech trading and ridiculous pollution levels (everything else I can live with or work around in a mod). I've put off playing more til 1.18 comes out, do you know when they'll be making any announcements on when it might come out?
Thanks.

The Thinker · April 2, 2002, 23:49

Hmmm, wasn't Reynolds a game designer? The only game design issue I have is that corruption is supposed to encourage very small Empires but makes large empires almost pointless. Only reason in CIV 3 to have a large empire is culture and citys rarely flip so far from your capital, so I'm paying upkeep for temples in cities that I had to rush them in the first place with the only benefit being "points" towards a cultural victory.

Would Reynolds have gotten a Better AI? Multi-player? A nice editor for designing our own stuff? Longer Beta test?

Bottom line, someone somewhere with a PDA and a pager said they wanted the game done by Tueday. and when the programs asked if they wanted it good or if they wanted it Tuesday, the suit replied that they wanted it Tuesday.

I find the game enjoyable, and see the signs of hardwork everywhere. Could they do a better job with 8 more months? I'm sure they could. Will that game get released? It might. Could Reynolds have gotten an 8 month extension? I have no reason to think he could.

Rik

Dan Magaha FIRAXIS · April 2, 2002, 23:56

Quote:

Originally posted by ALPHA WOLF 64
Dan,
personally I think the game is great except for 2 major problems: AI tech trading and ridiculous pollution levels (everything else I can live with or work around in a mod). I've put off playing more til 1.18 comes out, do you know when they'll be making any announcements on when it might come out?
Thanks.

This is a Jeff question, but my generic response would be that you'll probably find out about it about a week before we put it up on the site.

I think it'll be worth your wait, personally, but that's just me.

Dan

P.S., for those who are tempted, this really isn't worthy of a news item =)

ALPHA WOLF 64 · April 3, 2002, 00:00

BTW Dan, if Hunt Valley is a metropolis, are you causing global warming or do you use mass transit?

I hate waiting so get back to work

Inverse Icarus · April 3, 2002, 00:03

Are you ignoring me Dan Magaha? Because so help me god if you do not reply to this message and say "hi uberkrux

" or something of the sort i will drive down to MD and mind control sid to go on a muderous rampage.

don't test me sobrero boy.

asleepathewheel · April 3, 2002, 00:23

Quote:

Originally posted by UberKruX
Are you ignoring me Dan Magaha? Because so help me god if you do not reply to this message and say "hi uberkrux

" or something of the sort i will drive down to MD and mind control sid to go on a muderous rampage.

don't test me sobrero boy.

I would be careful on your way through maryland, as there are probably still riots going on.

Alexander's Horse · April 3, 2002, 00:30

Quote:

Originally posted by The Thinker

Bottom line, someone somewhere with a PDA and a pager said they wanted the game done by Tueday. and when the programs asked if they wanted it good or if they wanted it Tuesday, the suit replied that they wanted it Tuesday.

That is my personal theory on civ III - the designers got screwed by the money men.

Inverse Icarus · April 3, 2002, 01:03

thats quite an optimistic way to think about it, and i'm sure thats THE BEST way to think about.

ignoring incompetence based on a timeline pans out well for the stuggling designers.

loinburger · April 3, 2002, 01:33

My opinion, "wait until Reynolds's game comes out, then decide." If Reynolds's game turns out to be an "AOE ripoff" with a greater disappointment factor than Civ3, then I'd say the prize cookie goes to Sid; otherwise, Reynolds. Besides, the feeling I got was that Sid didn't have much of a hand in designing Civ3, but instead focused on glorious Golf.

The Templar · April 3, 2002, 02:51

Hmm ...

Civ2 - basically Civ1 with more units and buildings. Real genius at work.

SMAC - civ2 in space with some extra bells and whistles. Once again, Reynolds proves he's the man.

Silly me, how could I ever doubt the genius of Brian Reynolds?

The Templar · April 3, 2002, 02:56

Almost forgot.
Sid and his golf game. Exciting. (That's sarcasm for those of you who need a ****ing smilie to tell you when someone is not being earnest.) What's this guy done since '92 that's worth playing? And don't say Gettysburg. For the record, Gettysburg sucked.

How about a Soren option (since it sounds like he did all the work). Soren all the way!

loinburger · April 3, 2002, 03:00

Quote:

Originally posted by The Templar
(That's sarcasm for those of you who need a ****ing smilie to tell you when someone is not being earnest.)

It generally helps, given that it is impossible for us to guess the intonation and/or facial expression that would accompany your words if we heard them from you face to face. Of course, I'm sure you already knew that.

Kaak · April 3, 2002, 03:11

Well Dan, it's good to see you in here. You think you could make a double login and tell us how you really feel about civ3. I'm not being condescending or anything, but i know you probably can't say anything under that name.

I guess what i mean is, when i try to do something, be it art, or whatever, i can look back on it and see my mistakes, or the shortcomings of the piece etc. can you tell us what your opinion is?

Zylka · April 3, 2002, 03:13

I will luv dar civ3 and mistar civ meiers for demands r met:

-Must haff "thar is no Dana only zuul" as coolness new along wiff "all your base are belong to us". maybe give to some advisor whos looks like 3d mistar meiers wiff cool grin

-takes away all thes warfare please. it is clash of cultuer we buy for, not clash of troops :r0olqeeyes: HAR WARMONGEERAING FEWL!
-Korruption must be included more and more tyo make it liek thine olden days once I heard a story thart all that happened was corruption and thaT was it they corrupted 4 miles back and froth to school in the freezing cold avery day

-Most ofportantly switch gameplay wiff cool looking gra-fex animations and radical towar of babber screens which is whut is on the box thanx

notyoueither · April 3, 2002, 03:40

Civ3 a classic? Too early to say yes or no. Too many people are judging on the merits or demerits of a rushed initial release and patches that came relatively quickly to fix early problems.

Wait a year. Hold the same poll. You may need to include a Soren/Jeff/Mike/Dan/andCo. option. It's pretty clear from public discussion Sid won't have been much of the Civ3 equation.

PS. Yes we love you Horsie.

PPS. And look what's about to happen to MOO3. Hack. Slash. Can't wait for the howls over that one.

loinburger · April 3, 2002, 03:59

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither
PPS. And look what's about to happen to MOO3. Hack. Slash. Can't wait for the howls over that one.

The real howling is going on at the official forums. The Apolyton forums mostly seem to be people who are interested in the game without being rabid about it, while some of the folks posting at the official forums have been there for well over a year.

notyoueither · April 3, 2002, 04:04

Hmm. Seems every game has some ghosts.

Seems some need busting more than others.