Is it hopeless?

[anemic CIVver]

Holy cow! Well, I guess I asked for it, didn't I? I thank you all for your time and effort trying to make sense of my convoluted Empire. Some questions:

1) When you build the first city, what's the first thing you build? I've been building the barracks first, then 2 defenders, then selling the barracks.

2) The CIV III Instruction Manual (during the walk-through) says "Move Settler 6 squares away to build the new city." Is this right?

3) What exactly is the amount when population is 'pegged' until you build aquaducts (and then Hospitals)?

4) I thought the City Governor was supposed to help you, not hinder you.

5) I build Wealth in cities when there's nothing else I want. You see, I've played CIV II for years, and I'm in the habit of not building extra units because of the upkeep.

6) I thought Flood Plains were the second worst place to build a city because of disease? (Jungles being first, of course)

Once again, let me express my appreciation and gratitude for your time and effort.

[notyoueither]

1. Initial build sequence. Forget Barracks. BTW never, ever sell an improvement your city has slaved for 100s of years to build. Sometimes, very much later in the game it may be appropriate, but NEVER early.

Warrior, Warrior, Warrior, Settler, Warrior, Warrior, Settler

The first 3 to 4 cities follow that general plan. I play Large Maps, so exploration is more important than on small. However, on Tiny Maps, a Warrior rush may be possible. You KO a civ with 6 or 10 of your Warriors. Anyway, the Warriors can be upgraded to Swordsmen, thus they are far from useless. I build Temples, Barracks, etc after the city has provided it's mandatory contribution to the growth of the empire. What I am saying is a general guide. Not engraved in stone. The game you find yourself in, ie the situation, will dictate how you direct your early production. Sometimes, you may build 4 cities and then build Barracks and go postal on a nearby civ. The situation will determine the best path.

2. Civ manual. Hah! If there is one thing I don't like is that manual. There is some useful information in it, but *6* tiles??!? What page? I want to burn it! Did you look at my game? Look at Rome. Look at the spacing out from Rome in circles around her magnificence (and corruption reducing effect). 4 tiles initially, 3 later.

3. Cities cap at 6 pop until you build an Aqueduct. 12 until Hospital. Building adjacent to a River or Lake (not Sea) acts as an Aqueduct. Next to river is choice. Notice that on my map, I have deviated from optimum placement here and there to take advantage of Rivers, but never by more than 1 tile.

4. The governor is there to take a load off of people who can't be bothered. It will never do as good a job as an intelligent human agent. You know what you want to accomplish much better than an AI agent. It is not linked to your mind; it can not know what you want or what will really help you.

5. If conquest is the goal, you may need a few more than 7 Samurai. Always and forever, keep the goal in mind.

6. Flood Plains are not as bad as they are cracked up to be. I have been stricken by Disease a couple of times. You lose some pop. Big Deal! The city grows like a weed after you change from Despotism. Before you change, don't assign workers to those tiles.

[Combat Ingrid]

1. I always try to build a temple first in a new city, unless there is something else more urgent. It's really useful for keeping your people happy (at least on the higher difficulties, maybe you can survive without temples for a while on chieftain) and to expand the borders quickly to get to use all the available resources around the city as soon as possible. I try to build the defenders in another city and move them in with the settler. Instead of barracks, I always aim for Sun Tzu's wonder, saves a lot of time and effort, especially if you like me build a big empire on one continent.

2. ??? This makes no sense, is this instructions for a tutorial game, to get your newly built settler to a good city spot? Try to put the cities 3-5 tiles from each other. Optimally, there should be no overlap in the tiles used by different cities and no unused tiles in between the cities but you often have to compromise.

4. Yes, in the computers mind its helping you...

5. In contrast to Civ2, wealth is usually a waste, unless there is really NOTHING interesting to build. When I get to the point there are no improvements to build in my cities (usually happens in late medieval time) I build lots of troops for my defenses and some cavalry for counterattack in case I get into war. I normally play a peaceful builder style, but to stay in peace, you will need lots of troops to impress the AI, otherwise they will attack you. If you plan for conquest, just build lots of offensive units and some defensive (to hold newly taken cities and to defend your attackers).

6. Flood plains gives LOTS of food, use them for your settler/worker factories (cities that build nothing else than these units).

Finally, some general advice. In Civ3, the computer expands very aggressively by building tons of cities everywhere, do the same (but preferably in a smarter manner than the AI) or you are likely to become surrounded by AI cities in no time, especially on higher difficulties, when the AI is actually capable of building things.
As someone mentioned, just as in Civ2, wonders are useful, build them!
Also, make sure to have lots of workers around, you need to have your cities productive and have a good road/railroad infrastructure if you want to fight wars efficiently. Later on in the game, you will find that having lots of workers and railroads on all worked tiles really helps to clean up pollution efficiently, it can be quite a pain otherwise.

Good luck with your civing!

[GeneralTacticus]

Does anyone know if moving your workers away from the flood plains when you get the disease message but before people die has any effect? I've tried that a couple of times but it didn't work, prolly because the city was built on flood plains too.

[notyoueither]

Nope. Once you have the plague you can kill all the rats, but you still have the plague. Thank the designers that it doesn't spread.

[Ethelred]

For the first city I build

Warrior, Warrior, settler settler settler settler untill I have enough cities.

Sometimes I build three warriors first. No more than that. My new cities build a warrior first for protection and military police especially now that I am playing on Emperor.

Thats for Standard maps and down. I find one city kicking a settler out every 10 turns is nearly as fast the AI can manage even on Emperor. I suspect that huge maps may need a second city in the settler business to get them out as fast as the AI.

I have my second city produce the military. That one builds a barracks as soon as possible. The other cities don't get barracks till I need more than one city producing units.

Sometimes I don't build granaries till I have barracks or even hospitals.

I don't plan on Sun Tzu. I plan on the Sistine Chapple and anything else is a bonus till I shoot for Theory of Evolution to get the two tech for the Hoover Wonder. If I miraculously get a leader it either goes to the Forbidden Palace or a whatever wonder I think best at that time. Late leaders are often used to move the Palace.

Mostly leaders are used to connect fishing line to the hook. Thats only leader I usually have.

[anemic CIVver]

According to the Manual, page 32, ''We move the Settler northwest one square, west one square, then southwest three squares."

I've tried to download your games, but it doesn't seem to work.

[Ethelred]

In what way is it not working.

They ALWAYS come up with the same name here on Apolyton. No seems to be able to fix it. Apparently some of the more obscure browsers don't have the problem.

The come up as attachment.

Just rename to something that ends in .zip unless the name you see before you click on it says something other than .zip.

So again this is what I do.

Hightlight the name with my mouse. Its a bit tricky to do without activating the link try different ways. I find starting from the end instead of the beginning work. Then when I have it highlighted I copy it to the clipboard with the CONTROL-C hotkey.

Then I actually click on the link.

The save file box come up.

I highlight the word 'attachment' and then I hit the CONTROL-V hotkey to copy the correct name from the clipboard.

Hit the save button go to whereever the heck I saved and unzip it.

I saved yours in

D:\Downloads\Games\Civ III\Other peoples Saved games

Those longer names make it easier to find things later.

The file from notyoueither is big so I guess its a large map. 382KB compressed and 3.7MB uncompressed.

Good luck. A lot of people take a while not only to get the knack for the game but dealing with Apolytons silly file problems.

Yep his file and mine are both OK. You just have to download them with a .zip extension.

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by anemic CIVver
According to the Manual, page 32, ''We move the Settler northwest one square, west one square, then southwest three squares."

yes, it does say that doesn't it?

at all times you should remember that the city governers, the advisors and the manual are wrong far more than they are right (if at all).
that quote you cited was from the 'For Beginners Only' section of the manual, since you said you played CivII for years i don't think you're that much of a beginner. it can take a while to adjust to a style of play that suites CivIII, but keep at it and you'll do fine.

also, unlike the manual and advisors, Ethelred and NYE do know what they're talking about. heed their advice...

good luck for your future games.

[anemic CIVver]

Well, I downloaded both of the saved games, and when I unzipped them to the Save directory, started the game, and tried to load one of them, the following appeared:

DataIO Operation System Error: CULT

and then:

DataIO Operation System Error: ESPN

and then:

DataIO Operation System Error: ESPN

and then:

DataIO Operation System Error: LEAD

The game then crashes, and goes to Desktop.

Any thoughts?

[Ethelred]

I think I may know. You haven't patched Civ III to 1.1.7f have you?

If you have patched them I can't think of the problem. I open NYE's save with no problem. I didn't test mine in the game but I did test his. It opened up just fine.

If it unzipped properly the file should be OK. If you get CIRC errors when you unzip you need to download it again.

He has a LOT of cruise missles. I am not sure why he posted that save. The game is nearly over so you can't learn much about he got there. Interesting to see his unit choices though.

If you have installed any patches you might want to uninstall the game and reinstall then patch before playing.

Download the latest patch for the PC version at:

http://www.civ3.com/patches.cfm

If you downloaded it on the first day it was available it had the wrong editor so you should download it again.

Older saves work in 1.17f but you may have a few glitches primarily in the Foreign Advisor screen the first few times you play. If you see circles without heads just RIGHT click on the circle and chose a civ.

1.17f makes some things easier on lower difficulty levels and things harder on the higher difficulty levels. The main difference for many though is that the SHIFT-A hotkey now works as intended and the AI trades tech at a rapid rate.

Some people think they are conspiring with each other but they will happily trade with you as well if you have the money or the tech to trade with them. Trading with the AI makes them a bit happier. They don't like it if you don't trade. Which is just too darn bad when you have a big tech lead. Who cares if they get annoyed when you have tanks and they have knights. Don't expect that on anything but Chieftan level though. Especially with the patch.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Ethelred
He has a LOT of cruise missles. I am not sure why he posted that save. The game is nearly over so you can't learn much about he got there. Interesting to see his unit choices though.

If you have installed any patches you might want to uninstall the game and reinstall then patch before playing.

Ever tried to get the Fleet around a land mass like that to fend off the badies? Cruise do a great job. Also I had deluded myself into believing I could load them on Nuc Subs. Can't, under default rules.

Planning for the long haul. I intend to milk the game for score. I have built the UN and declined to hold any vote. Likewise, I am building the Space Ship, but I do not intend to launch. I will launch at the last possible moment if I cannot prevent another civ from completing a SS.

I'm trying to see how high I can get the score without ICSing as blatantly as Aeson has done it and by not abusing the Peace Renegotiation exploit that he is also making use of.

I posted it so that aC could view city placement and terrain improvements in a developed civ. Give him an idea of what it would look like when successful. Set a goal and all that.

[anemic CIVver]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Ethelred
For the first city I build

Warrior, Warrior, settler settler settler settler untill I have enough cities.


At what point do you start building Workers? Didn't you say that the awful state that my Empire was in was due to the almost total lack of workers?

Oh, I uninstalled CIV III, and re-installed. I then found the 1.17 patch on my hard drive, and unzipped it. Now I AM on 1.17. (I wasn't before). However, once I quit the game, everything on my Desktop is smaller than it should be.

To FrustratedPoet: When I said that I've played CIV II for years, I never said that I got good at it!

To all: Should I not play Chieftain level? Someone mentioned that you learn things on that level that you have to unlearn at higher levels.

Also, the Octavius of the Romans save is pretty awe-inspiring all right . . . the 1818 save of my Empire was interesting as well. My technology is still ass-backwards according to the Advisor, what does he know?

[notyoueither]

aC. The situation, and your own style, will always determine the right path to take.

Ethelred is using a Settler Factory. I don't do that. It slows me down, but I just like having better developed cities and I can't stand having my capitol behind the other cities. See, style. There is no one right answer.

My early cities build a worker after the 2nd Settler. Sometimes they build one between the first and second Settlers. My very much later cities build a Worker almost immediately. The situation determines what is right.

The important things for you to take from this thread for your further exploration would be that Workers are important, cities should be more efficiently placed, and if you want to conquer you will have to build a military.

Don't get too focused on the exact way that we do these things. Just improve on your previous starts. Then come back with new problems. Who knows, we may help you become a Kahn, but it will be you that have to do it. Not us.

[Combat Ingrid]

Originally posted by anemic CIVver


To all: Should I not play Chieftain level? Someone mentioned that you learn things on that level that you have to unlearn at higher levels.

Well, chieftain is only good for learning the basics of the game. The drawback is that the AI is completely crippled, for example, it has a 100% building/science disadvantage (it needs to spend twice the amount of shields/gold to do the same thing). On warlord, it's only a 20% disadvantage so you will probably learn much more about strategy by moving up to warlord.

And to cite the domestic advisor: Build more cities!

[anemic CIVver]

O.K. According to the Prima Official CIV III Strategy Guide, this is the order in which you should research tech in the Ancient Times if you wish to conquer the world:

1) Bronze Working
2) Iron Working
3) Masonry
4) Alphabet
5) Mathematics
6) Construction
7) The Wheel
8) Horseback Riding
9) Mysticism
10) Polytheism
11) Monarchy
12) Writing
13) Literature
14) Pottery
15) Map Making
16) Code of Laws
17) Currency
18) Philosophy
19) The Republic (Optional)

Any thoughts on the order?

[notyoueither]

Once again, the situation...

If you are the Romans or the Persians you want IronWorking NOW.

If you are the Iroquois you want Horsback riding sooner than NOW.

But then again, no matter who you are, if you have very few hills and no mountains in your area (low chance for Iron) you'll want Horses ASAP.

If you really want to go postal right from the start try the Aztecs. The JaguarWarrior isn't as good as it used to be but it is still very powerful for it's cost.

[anemic CIVver]

If any of my posts didn't make much sense, I apologize. I've worked over 70 Hours in the last 7 days.

[Ethelred]

Its a very bad roll of toilette paper. Maybe it might make good kindling. NO Prima guide has been decent unless they accidently hired the right person. OK thats excessive. My sister-in-law tells the one for Arcanum is useful but she likes walk throughs and I think the maps may be usefull. Also I know Jonny Wilson the ex-editor of Computer Gameing World wrote a good official guide for some game once. Generally they suck and the one for Civ has not yet been called usefull by anyone.

There is NO set build order. No one that knows what they are doing would give one which is why I teed of on the guide(my sister-in-law IS a good source). It all depends on the situation and the Civ you are playing. You may need to build a granary for instance and therfor want pottery. You may indeed want bronze working so you can shoot for Iron working.

Sometimes the Wheel is best. That one tells you where the horses are and leads to horseback riding the best general attack unit in the Ancient Era. Unless your Persian or Roman anyway. Horses retreat which is good enough to make them just a bit more usefull than a lot of swordsmen when you consider that you can't upgrade swordsman.

If you are stuck isolated on an island you must go for Map Making as fast as you possibly can. It may save the game for you.

Monarchy is OK on that list but only if you are a religous civ at least for most players. For every one else Monarchy is something you pick just to get the science advisor to quit bugging you about it. After all if you go for The Republic its a worthless tech unless you want to build all the Wonders.

Some people really like the Great Library but to get it you have to concentrate on it.

All things being equal which is never the case I like Ceremonial Burial so I can build temples and then the Wheel for horses and Warrior code so I can go for horsies if I think I need to go to war.

I saw one person that like beelining for currency which might be a good idea. The AI never goes that way so you can trade it for a lot but the flip side of their not going for it is that it will take time to get.

Basicly though my idea is to get out of the Ancient Age as quick as possible so I go for what I get fast OR I set my research to minimum on a line. Currency might be good for this and save my money and BUY stuff. Whatever is cheapest or whatever I need. Its the fasted way out anyway on higher levels.

So I can't give you a magic route through. You have to wing it.

Go ahead and read that thing since you have it but I would take advice you get here over it. The main problem with those things is that they are written while the game is still in Beta. You have the SECOND patch now. The fine details have been changed. And that is true for most games.

[anemic CIVver]

BTW, I've been meaning to ask: How do you go about getting a picture with your posted name in the column to the left?

Inquiring minds want to know . . .

[anemic CIVver]

I posted it so that aC could view city placement and terrain improvements in a developed civ. Give him an idea of what it would look like when successful. Set a goal and all that. [/QUOTE]

How tired am I? It took me until 2 minutes ago to figure out who the heck aC was.

Anyhoo, I'll study the Octavius save (and a very impressive Empire it is, too), and will probably begin a brand spanking new game Tuesday (Yep, I gotta work another 10 hours on Monday).

Wish me luck, and I hope you don't mind if I keep asking questions. I really appreciate everybody's input.

About the PRIMA Guide, there are some instances in the book, and I believe in the instruction manual as well that show weird pictures. (A picture of a city in disorder has the Drone pic from Alpha Centauri. Oh, quick story: I have a SMAC (no expansion) save of me as the Peacekeepers as the only faction alive on Planet. I won the Diplomatic victory, and then proceeded to systematically eradicate every other faction that was still around. The Gaians were the last ones standing. She was down to 1 measly little 2 pop city, and she had the nerve to call me up on the diplomatic channel, and say that 'Your day of reckoning is at hand!' I was so insulted that I dropped a Planet Buster on her last city. Bombed her to atoms! (And it felt GOOD!))

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by anemic CIVver
BTW, I've been meaning to ask: How do you go about getting a picture with your posted name in the column to the left?

Inquiring minds want to know . . .

Go to the top of the screen and click on the control panel link.

Its in there somewhere.

Or you could try clicking on the FAQ link. You are SUPPOSED to do that before you sign up. That tells you how.

[GeneralTacticus]

Some people really like the Great Library but to get it you have to concentrate on it.

My experience on Regent level is that the AI places almost NO priority on developing Literature, meaning if you go for it soon enough you can build the GL before anyone else even starts.

And Monarchy isn't so bad if you've got a military that's too big to support under Republic but want to develop a bit.

[anemic CIVver]

Try Romans. Guaranteed victory if you have M&Ms. Promise. But you have to know how to use them. So maybe it's not guaranteed. [/QUOTE]

I will take your advice, and go with the Romans. What do you mean by M&Ms?

[anemic CIVver]

I have started the new game! I invite everyone to join me at "The new game" post.

[Ethelred]

I have been playing YOUR game. The Japanese have moved up to third and are one point out of second. India is still first but I have taken four of their cities and will soon have one too three more. India is at war with everybody due to my arranging an MPP with Germany and China and not attacking India untill it triggered the MPPs.

Have tanks and am about to finish researching ecology. Its 1987 now so it will be tight to get a win except on score. Even that may be tight considering the lead India has there. I will finish the game tommorow I think. Pretty sure I will win now that I can get some research done quickly. In a Golden Age at the moment.

[Ethelred]

Finished the game.

Built the Japanese up till I had tanks and then started in on India in 1983. Arranged a MPP with the other two civs and six or seven turns later India was no more. I took most of India. Germany got one or two and China got one.

Two turns later I traded aluminum from Germany for 100 gold per turn plus spice and some other luxury. Expensive but it allowed me to upgrade the tanks to modern armour. Besides I had 2500 in the treasury by then. I also reforged a MPP with Germany to ensure that I would not loose the aluminum when I went to war with China.

One turn after that I made wholey unreasonable demands for continued peace with China. China refused and that was the end of peace. They attacked Japan triggering the MPP I had made with Germany. Unfortunately it also blocked the trade with Germany but I had figured that problem would be shortlived.

Very short lived. I took the city blocking trade first. Then in a lightning blitz vastly aided by the three move of modern armour I took one city after another each one enableling my armour to reach another. Only two cities remained just outside the reach of my tanks. Just outside at that. I was able to park three tanks right next to both.

Next turn the Chinese misery was ended. One civ gone in two turns. Never did that before.

I took one turn to move units and repair and the I decided that I wasn't going to wait any longer as the Germans had three panzers out in the open and I didn't want them getting back to defend the German cities.

First turn I only took two German cities because Frankfurt was just beyond my reach and its territory was slowing down my tanks. I was able to stack seven tanks right next to Frankfurt though. Frankfurt cost me one tank and a couple were heavily damaged. Took the city in the center and that lead to Berlin which lead to two more cities by allowing me to get around some mountains.

At that point it suddenly occured to me that the Germans not only had two cities left that I might not be able get on that turn they also had one on an island. So I upgraded a galleon I had sitting around and loaded the few tanks I hadn't yet used on it to launch an anemic invasion force.

Wasted my time on that. I ended the turn and then won by domination.

Nine Japanese cities in 1983. Three remaining non- Japanese cities in 2007. Thats what I call a blitz. I wasn't sure I could pull that game out but the AI just didn't have the production capacity even though it was able to stay just ahead on tech research while India was still around.

When I whatched the replay I was somewhat horrified by what Anemic Civer had done. Three cities only in 1500 AD or so. No wonder the Japanese were losing. Glad to see you are doing better in your new game.

[anemic CIVver]

Could you post the game, please? I'd love to see it.

[Ethelred]

OK. I haven't started a new game yet so I still had some saves.

There are two saves in the zip. One from the year before the end in 2005 and one from 1926. That might be enough to give you a line on what I was doing.

Remember to change the name. Bloody attachments.