The Myth of a Bugless Civ3 - Page 2

yin26 · March 6, 2001, 05:08

I see. So part of my duties as the Civ3 moderator is to live and breathe the OT for the latest "hot" management decision? Please...

March 6, 2001, 05:19

no, i just gave you an example of another case of a private message being posted, without the message being mine...

now if you mean to tell me that you never thought that private messages are private and (especially a moderator) should not post one publicly....
[This message has been edited by MarkG (edited March 06, 2001).]

yin26 · March 6, 2001, 05:32

So after literally hundreds of hours of my personal time spent helping you grease the developers, this is the best you can do? Not even a warning? Sad, Markos. But we see your true character in this.

ShiningOne · March 6, 2001, 05:35

This is getting bizarre... does indeed seem like a kangaroo court has just been convienned.

I take issue with the assertion that posting the entire article is somehow worse than quoting a line or a paragraph from it. With the entire article, JKMs comments can be seen in context all the way through. As an experienced poster, I'm sure Yin would be at least a little concerned with letting the target have their full say, instead of trying to make them seem worse than they are.

Posting PMs isn't nice. However, MarkG's followup comments have a tone that isn't exactly pleasant either. This does seem like just a convient reason to remove Yin from his position, which has then been justified to an (in)suffient degree (depending on your point of view). Rather than the obvious breaking of a well established, clearly communicated rule.

MikeH · March 6, 2001, 05:37

I didn't know that it was an offense to post a private message.

Is it in the FAQ because if it is I missed it. If it isn't it obviously should be. What about posting part of an e-mail someone sends? That'd have to be the same thing I guess.

As for yin posting this article this is one of the most interesting threads I've read on this forum for a long time. I think it's a good debate to stimulate. I also don't think anyone 'attacked' a developer in this thread. This is one of the most reasonable debates I've read on this subject. Normally they are a lot more... er... blunt.

March 6, 2001, 06:09

quote:

Originally posted by yin26 on 03-06-2001 04:32 AM
So after literally hundreds of hours of my personal time spent helping you grease the developers, this is the best you can do? Not even a warning? Sad, Markos. But we see your true character in this.

you make a thread that i have a problem with. i see it and reply to it with my opinion, but you delete the thread. i send you a note about it, i believe showing that i didnt like it. to be accurate, i sent you a total of two messages, geting a reply only to one

you then make this thread. i sent you a pm to discuss it privately with you and leave it "alive" and open. what do you do? post the private message in public(and in two forums) and talk about "brave men"...

what more do want me to do? make a choice
- edit your post. an administrator editing the post of a moderator? ridicullous
- give you a public warning. even more ridicullous
- give you a private warning. and then what? you could either post that one too(!) or agree with it and edit the post with the pm. still there is always someone how will notice such things(the post was on the thread for several hours) and there is no way it would end there.

mike, if you expect from a faq to tell you that private messages are private, what can i say....

yin26 · March 6, 2001, 06:17

Yes, I quickly deleted a previous thread after considering my position as moderator. Does that not reflect my intention to keep Apolyton a good place for developers? Hmmm Also, if you had wanted to engage me in an honest dialogue, I doubt calling me a "troll" was the best method. Agreed?

Finally, I think my thread about The Myth of a Bugless Civ3 is one of the best ones we've had. There was no attack. Sorry to say, but bugs are a way of life with games these days, but you act as if even discussing the topic somehow jeopardizes Apolyton's relationship with developers.

I would remind you that on the other half of that coin is the relationship you must have with the gamers as well. Burn one and you'll burn both.

March 6, 2001, 07:25

quote:

Originally posted by yin26 on 03-06-2001 05:17 AM
Does that not reflect my intention to keep Apolyton a good place for developers?

it does. but when you discontinue the discussion i started, a couple days later start a similar thread and then post private message, it kind of ruins the previous image.

quote:

I doubt calling me a "troll" was the best method. Agreed?

i dint call you a troll. i said that the thread you made would fit to someone with a troll title, not a moderator one

quote:

There was no attack.

you repost a whole article which has been generally condemned by the community and ask for the community it's opinion on the article("Is he right? Your thoughts, please...") again, 18 months later!

quote:

Sorry to say, but bugs are a way of life with games these days, but you act as if even discussing the topic somehow jeopardizes Apolyton's relationship with developers.

hardly...we'had whole forums set up specifically to discuss bugs. we've had lists of bugs created in these forums. i've personally sent the smacx bug list to firaxis.

March 6, 2001, 07:34

wow! Another Apolyton milestone! How much did Furaxle pay you, MarkG? Isn't the community worried about bug after the SMAC disaster? This is a REAL topic, not another blah blah how cool another Civ code recycled ripoff will be.
So continue with the Civ3 advertizing now ...

Grandpa Troll · March 6, 2001, 07:43

quote:

Originally posted by yin26 on 03-05-2001 07:53 PM
By the way, I just recieved this interesting personal message:

Now, if you ask me, calling me a "Troll" regarding this is a bit extreme. I wonder if that person has the courage to actually post his thoughts here for the rest of Apolyton to see. Hmmm?

What YIN a TROLL???

Say it aint so Yin..I am a Troll and didnt see it coming..but I just bet that there is a little Troll in all of us?

Hard to be in a leadership position Yin old buddy..and have opinions..kinda like being married..ya have to lose your
balls!!..J/K!!!

AS Tom Hanks said in Saving Private Ryan.."I complain up..not down!"..pretty much management has this unspoken code of ethics as well as keeping bedroom secrets..well..secret! They still are naughty..and true..but we have to keep them secret!

Just a bit of personal point of view old buddy!

Troll

March 6, 2001, 07:59

in case you didnt notice Ayatollah, the thread was left and is still open for discussion...

and just for you, here is our new poll http://apolyton.net/cgi-bin/ubb-poll...howBooth&id=22

yin26 · March 6, 2001, 08:09

LOL! Well, Markos, I gotta give you some credit for putting up that poll! HA! I almost forgive you.

March 6, 2001, 08:13

So now you have to demoderate yourself, Markos? That's amazing ...

March 6, 2001, 08:15

hehe yin, i think i've covered all opinions, right?

(that's my job after all)

Ayatollah, i have no problem with the discussion of bugs. re-read my posts

[This message has been edited by MarkG (edited March 06, 2001).]

March 6, 2001, 08:19

and i dont see you voting yet....

yin26 · March 6, 2001, 08:42

Markos,

I voted, just to make you happy. You know, I might well have been ready to quit my moderating job anyway...it's too bad it went like this. I'm still not sure what convinced you to act the way you did, but now I'm free to pester you, so I guess we are both happy.

Someday, though, you could try to explain yourself better. Thanks.

March 6, 2001, 08:50

perhaps my subconscious sensed your subconscious need to get "free" and speeded things up

MikeH · March 6, 2001, 09:48

I voted... the possible answers don't really answer the question.

The question "are you worried" should have a set of responses like...
1. Yes I'm very worried - SMAC was a disaster in that department
2. I'm a bit worried - Hopefully they'll have learnt from SMAC
3. I'm not worried - SMAC didn't have any bugs in the code, I should just have had the same system as whoever tested it.

March 6, 2001, 10:01

reply here
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum6/HTML/002388.html

Darkstar · March 6, 2001, 14:52

Interesting opinions here...

Markos, do YOU think SMAC was a "disaster"? That is the word you used.

Yes. I do think Yin has an axe to grind. Based on his personal experiences with Firaxis and SMAC. But I think it's to keep Firaxis from repeating past mistakes, not to decorate their company face with egg. If it was due to a meaness in Yin's spirit, he'd WAIT until Civ3 had gone gold to start using that axe. He could do a LOT more damage releasing all the game spoiling bugs in the beta that weren't fixed BEFORE the retail release, then by reminding whatever passing Firaxian of what has gone before, and the outcome of that.

But that doesn't change the fact that I'm disappointed in you, MarkG. It seems EXTREMELY judgemental and close minded to have done that to Yin. I know we do not always see eye to eye on everything, but I would like to think that you would try to be more careful in dealing with your own Apolyton family (the moderators and the other people that help keep Apolyton running) then snap demoting Yin like a common "Make Lots of Money" Spammer. That's what this sounds like. I will continue to hope that there is more to this then the little bit presented here.

I would think its better to either link to the source, or quote the whole article. And it's not uncommon netiquette in many areas to do BOTH. Link to the article and then include a plain text quote of it as well.

Markos, you KNOW that there are just some people that you have to tell everything. Heck, *I* don't see a problem with quoting a part of PM in a public thread. You had not been identified by Yin. He was just quoting a snipit. If publicly quoting or reposting PM's is forbidden, whether from you or from anyone else, then you had better put it in the FAQ. I know I'm not the only idiot who doesn't realize that private means "UNREPEATABLE/UNQUOATABLE".

You are playing at semantics. "This is something to come from someone titled troll, not moderator." Or whatever EXACT phrasing you had used... that's PURELY semantics. You had called him "like a troll", rather then "troll". Fine. If I call your mother "like a prostitute", is it truly any different then just saying she *is* a prostitute? (And no Mark, I am NOT insulting your mother. I am using it as an example of the semantics.)

Was Yin trolling? I suspect yes. I think he was trying to start a conversation about bugs... get us to post our expectations, and show how many remember the last TBS game Firaxis. I don't see anyone jumping in and using extremely strong and/or crude language about SMAC though. Maybe I've gotten used to such, so I just filter it out? You have to admit, it has generated some interesting conversation.

ShiningOne, you are shooting too low. It is possible to eliminate CODE bugs. That is just a matter of time and effort. Even in games of "complexity" such as SMAC. How many SMAC customers found code bugs within the first two hours of game play? A very high proportion. Many people didn't RECOGNIZE they were bugs initially, but most eventually understand that those sorts of things should not be happening. Others caught on quicker.

I'd like to NOT repeat that with Civ3. I'll be honest... I never ran across the unlimited nuclear missile bug in my YEARS of playing Civ. Nor in Civ2. Not until I had heard about it repeatily did I even go look for it. Not because I wanted to find it, but because I didn't think it existed. There were a few code bugs in Civ and Civ2, but nothing like how many are so easily found SMAC. And in just a few hours of play.

Repeatibility... pheuy! Civ isn't an RTS! It's a TBS game that you can SAVE at any time. That means that you CAN build up a test suite of saved games. Eventually, the QA will have to dump their saved game test suite due to saved game file format changes, but just adding in a file version will let them reuse the test case saves for a long while. It's part of the job to make sure bugs squashed in previous builds don't return. And to be able to test for bugs being squashed in new builds. Plus, with scenerio building, they should be able to get out all the general code bugs out, period, as they can rebuild build game test cases. (If they CANNOT, then they need a better scenario editor. Which will be pure "value added" to the finished product.) That would only leave resource code bugs. It's merely a question of TIME and WORKER availability (also known as time and money).

The hardware and driver problems are indeed a fact of life with the diversity of customer systems. That's a reason many development shops like the game consoles. They know precisely what the hardware will be. Since Firaxis last TBS game (SMAC) did not have any trouble with MY hardware and drivers, that's one vote "Good job with the hardware!" from me. I would hope they do at least an equally well, if not better, job with Civ3. I'm sure they will try on that at least. But most people that I KNOW who run odd hardware generally figure out it's their particular system with the problem. Only people new to computers (who got steered into the odd hardware by sales people getting rid of it) or a few new to the machine will blame their applications. But even they eventually figure it out. Hopefully, the Tech Support they contact will have patience and be courteous until then. It is really all they can do.

Imran, what galaxy are you in, exactly? Or are you JM?

Most game forums aren't very "sticky". People come into a game forum, ask "How do I...?" or ask "I found a problem. Where's the patch or what's the workaround?". People do that because they are interested in the game, and their personal concerns with it. Then they leave. They may return a few more times, for more tips or more help. But their interest in the game is going to wane, or they are going to get good enough to not need any more assistance. So they don't return after that. Every once in a while, one of them might stick around, and join whatever community exists. Since that's how any single player game forum gets used, that's all there is to see. Multiplayer games have people hunting for other players. TBS MP games might have "Turn sent".

Exactly where do bugs "glue the community"? The only REAL community you have is your OT crowd. The remnants of your "forum squatters" (the people that joined up before the game was releases) with the new blood that trickled over from the game functionality forums (Strategy, Tech Support, Turn Sent, Games/Players Wanted, etc). I've seen plenty of people TALK about their bug measure scales in OT topics, but I can't recall BUG talk continuing on in OT. Unless you are mistaking how certain OT communities became rather upset and outraged over how the company they supported treated them and what it called them?

See, it's not BUGS that bind the community together. It's the (generally rare) carrots and (generally frequent) abuse that binds it together. JM provided quite a few of these instances to the Firaxis SMAC community. And did such a good job at it, that even now the majority of those communities are still together and functional. JM wasn't the only one, of course, but as he tended to interface the most with the general Firaxis public, he made the strongest impressions.

I wonder if Firaxis is planning on building a strong Civ3 community? And will it repeat how it built such a strong SMAC community? I bet they do. They really do not want to change a winning combination.

-Darkstarr

March 6, 2001, 15:10

replying to this first, reading the rest later

quote:

Originally posted by Darkstarr on 03-06-2001 01:52 PM
Markos, do YOU think SMAC was a "disaster"? That is the word you used.

no, i dont think that smac was a disaster. it is obvious that i can not agree with all the options of a poll we have here!

still, there seems to be a lot of people who characterize smac as a disaster(a poster above among them) so i included it

lord of the mark · March 6, 2001, 15:37

quote:

Originally posted by Darkstarr on 03-06-2001 01:52 PM
Interesting opinions here...

Exactly where do bugs "glue the community"? The only REAL community you have is your OT crowd. The remnants of your "forum squatters" (the people that joined up before the game was releases) with the new blood that trickled over from the game functionality forums (Strategy, Tech Support, Turn Sent, Games/Players Wanted, etc). I've seen plenty of people TALK about their bug measure scales in OT topics, but I can't recall BUG talk continuing on in OT. Unless you are mistaking how certain OT communities became rather upset and outraged over how the company they supported treated them and what it called them?

See, it's not BUGS that bind the community together. It's the (generally rare) carrots and (generally frequent) abuse that binds it together. JM provided quite a few of these instances to the Firaxis SMAC community. And did such a good job at it, that even now the majority of those communities are still together and functional. JM wasn't the only one, of course, but as he tended to interface the most with the general Firaxis public, he made the strongest impressions.

I wonder if Firaxis is planning on building a strong Civ3 community? And will it repeat how it built such a strong SMAC community? I bet they do. They really do not want to change a winning combination.

-Darkstarr

You seem to assume that JM is referring to this and similar communities, despite his explicit reference to USENET. Have you read the "zeus ate my computer" threads there? now thats an exageration to be sure, but not atypical.

Lord of the mark

March 6, 2001, 16:01

Darkstar, i would like to reply to the rest of your post, but i'm a big confused after reading your two last posts on acol. please define what your position is....

Darkstar · March 6, 2001, 19:12

MarkG,

Shocked and dismayed, with a bit of outrage.
I think that defines it best.

As I've said, I've got a lot of respect for you. Which is why I am shocked and dismayed. The outrage is simple... it seems to ME that you are being very quick in your judgement.

However, I do hope there is more going on in this matter then what we have been told.

The various threads touched by this "demoting" also carry other topics, so I can understand you confusion.

Yin has been subtly and sometimes obviously trying to draw attention to two areas he has always been concerned about: Public Relations and Quality. Firaxis, individually and as a whole, has in the past set it's foot wrong with their customers and fans quite a bit. Sometimes sheerly by accident, sometimes by attitude. In fact, that's why Yin became a member of the general SMAC and Civ communities. When he reported a problem, he got attitude back, not customer service. And he's been on Firaxis's back about it ever since.

Yin also has an interest in Firaxis trying to uphold it's statement to provide a high QUALITY game... as in, a game whose bugs are not fun destroyers, or if those bugs are fun destroyers, then are patched. (And not just vaporware patches.)

Now, why is that important? Because that is Yin's recurring postings.

MarkG, if you don't EMPLOY Yin, how can you expect him to not post as he is and on what he is interested? Yin is a volunteer. Like the other moderators, yes?

Volunteers are people that are helping out for their own reasons. But they are not seen as 'publicly representative' of the company or organization they are helping. So if Yin wants to go on about how SMAC was just a scam and Civ3 better be a GOOD game that lives up to Civ1 and Civ2, while a moderator, how is that any different then any OTHER poster who is not EMPLOYED (payed) by the Apolyton Business? It's not. I would think that you just need to make it clear that your moderators are volunteers... People that are trusted to keep a particular forum running, clean of serious off topic spam, and zapping particularly bad stuff (like porn). They are just Power Posters... able to do a little more then the regular poster, so they can help keep the area clean. But their VIEWS are not representative of Apolyton or the Apolyton Business. Just like all other posters who aren't paid by Apolyton are only expressing their own opinion.

The other major concern I have over this matter is that you seem to be holding you moderators responsible for breaking your rules and guidelines without having ever told them what they are. You really should draw up a document or list of those rules and guidelines and that give it to your moderators. Let's face it, we each have our own way of looking at things. What might be obvious to you, might not even occur to someone else. If it's that important, best to clear the air and get everyone on the same page.

After that, I had been commenting on the minor topics of the threads.

I hope you and Yin can settle this matter, and retain each other's respect.

-Darkstarr

March 6, 2001, 19:33

well, i guess i took some things for granted...

anyway, in the end,
time will tell
(as a wise man said)

(it rhymes!)

thread closed
you can post here http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum6/HTML/002385.html

[This message has been edited by MarkG (edited March 07, 2001).]

MikeH · March 7, 2001, 01:01

OK, sorry.