How big is your military? - Page 4

Theseus · September 3, 2002, 18:41

Sparked by vxma1's comment, I went back and looked at some of the earlier posts.

Boy was I naive then... nowadays, late-game warmongers regularly post about attacking with 200+ MAs, and accordingly large supporting forces.

I think that 1) warmongering has achieved the respect it deserves

, and 2) people have just gotten better at building high-productivity empires.

Lord Merciless · September 3, 2002, 19:09

Players have become more ruthless and more skilled at carrying out large scale campagns.

Theseus · September 3, 2002, 19:11

Look who's talking!

Hawk_2002 · September 3, 2002, 19:52

How does everyone get such modern armies so early in the game, even when i try to race to cavalry (which is where my armies start to swell up)... its still not that early in the game...

any tips?

thanks

Theseus · September 3, 2002, 20:02

You get Cavs around when (in years)? What size map, how many opponents, and what difficulty level?

Lord Merciless · September 3, 2002, 23:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
Look who's talking!

Heh, it's not only me who has converted to the dark side.

Arrian · September 4, 2002, 12:25

Hawk,

Tech goes faster on higher difficulty levels, so that is probably the difference.

Theseus,

I think the number of units have increased as people have increased the difficulty at which they play. I've been a bit of a whimp, sticking mainly to Monarch, and thus don't need (or even get to) 200 Modern Armor. My 75 Tanks were serious overkill in the Egyptian "Sword of Damocles" game.

-Arrian

Hawk_2002 · September 4, 2002, 22:01

Thanks, will try a higher dificulty setting, at the moment Im really only good on warlord, 2nd easiest one... havnt played civ 3 for that long.

I have a hugh military because I find that you can only win against an oppenent with the same tech level as out producing them... and I also like to take as many cities as possible in one or two turns...

Thanks again

Silpy · September 5, 2002, 07:29

What?
Dont you plan all your military units?
I allways do.
Follow Silpy's Golden rules, and you will do well!

1)ALLWAYS have barracks, airports and harbours.

2)ALL units will be at least veterans.

3)Seperate your land forces into 5 parts.
a)Defensive units. These shoud be 2-4 good, defencive units, fortified. They will not leave unless certain that the city will cope without them.
b)The Offensive 'Armies'. Usally for me, 1-2 per city.
These will be the backbone of your army, and will allways be ready for action! Place them in a central position so they can react to problems. Make sure that they are all the same speed, so they can mass all together!
c)Bombard armies. OK, these units can be done away with if you are in serious cash problems, but they are good. Have a good defender (like the ones in the city) to defend your defenceless units to the ratio 2:1 (ie 2 cannon, 1 musketman) Have these also in a central posititon to support your offensive armies.
d)Real Armies. Not so nessary now if you follow this, but still nice to have. I usally use them as a little force of 2 defensive and 1 offensve units to be a good home gaurd. I find that armies are usally too slow, and my wars (which I have never lost!) are vital to speed.
e)Extras. Marines, Paras, etc. Don't bother unless you have enough of a-b-c. Same goes for unique naval units like Submarines and Carriers.

4) Naval Units. Have about 2-4 good all-rounder units ancored at most ports or pinch points. Have enough transport units to transport at least 8 units accoss the sea, and escorts for them (make sure they can keep pace!)

5) Air units. So often, so neglected. Place at least 1 fighter in every city, and usally 2 in cities in range of rivals. Bomber units placed in secure locations (ie strong) near borders. Helicopters, I feel are under-used by the AI. So use them as transports.

6) Forsake ALL other production for military units/improvments There's no point in building that nice Factory or Wonder and them have your rivals come and take it all away from you.

7) Have quick wars. The longer it is, the more chance of foreign intervention, counter-invasion and/or superior forces being mobilised by the enemy. And it is such a drag, war.

8)Have the most up-to-date and trained forces in the world. I have so often defeated an enemy with masses of elderly units with only 2 new units.

9)Co-ordinate your forces! So often I have been fighting a land war, and my rivals navy runs home to port, and their air force has desided not to even to attemt to shoot down my planes. All branches of the military should support the land war.

10) Nukes. Ah. Keep a few ICBM's safe inside your nation, but NEVER EVER use them. They are a deterrant only. The AI feels (usally) the same way. But if they hit you, hit them back!

As I have said before, this has allways worked for me before. But even if you follow my advice, this will not protect you from your lack of talent as a commander!

vmxa1 · September 5, 2002, 13:12

Silpy, that would work of course. What I want to know is why on earth do I want to spend so many resources on such a large force? I do not need anywhere near that many units, unless I want to attack on several fronts at once. I am content to take a few cities in a turn or two and let them pay me for peace, knowing they will be force to declare war soon anyway. It has to be hurting your civ in the pocket and research to field that many troops. Well late in the game, it is fine.

Lord Merciless · September 5, 2002, 15:15

The size of your military should depend on the threat level and your strategic intention. Building hundreds of units for no particular purpose is nothing but a waste of resources. I don't just build 250+ MAs for fun, I want to go on the offensive and derail my enemy from a potential spaceship win. I never build ICBMs only for deterrance. If I spend 500 shields on that baby, I will make sure it gets used.

dworkin · September 5, 2002, 15:36

As a builder my army consists mainly of what is lying arround after the various rounds of war that crop up with one's neighbours. However due to the building lull somewhere in the medival era there tends to be a large dose of Cavalry lying around. I tend to keep them in case rubber or oil turn up in bad (foreign) places.

Against an aggro neighbour I will build a 'Wall of Blood and Iron' accross the entire border. This consists of one bombard, three defenders and a fort in a forest along my border. About 10 fast units will be stationed behind it to react to the psychos.

Lately I have been putting my coastal cities to knocking off a couple of ICs and later DDs or BBs. Battlefleet exists to send every enemy vessel to the ocean floor and keep all that icky war away from my pristine cities.

So the army is usually

2n defenders, n being the number of cities.
About 10-20 leftovers from wars.
20 Cavalry
Battlefleet, 10-20 ships
Wall of B/I, about 20-40 units
10 fast units
As many armies as my academy can crank out plus 1.

Silpy · September 6, 2002, 05:56

I field less units than you think! It is simply that they are better trained, and they give the illusion of more units than I really have. For Example.

Year 1910
Deity Level
English
12 Cities.

28 Infantry
4 Artillery
8 Tanks

12 Fighters
4 Bombers

8 Battleships
2 Destoryers
2 Transports

68 Military Units

And 10 Workers

This is the game I am currently playing. Although It is small in comparison to my rivals, It means that my country is never threatned! I admit, it hurts me a little, but it is not crippiling! (I am quite imagitive in my income sources)

Norris · September 15, 2002, 03:45

This pertains to Emperor level games on Standard and smaller maps

The AI will respond to the size of your military, or it's neighbors. if your military is small (and the AI likes you) his military will be smaller. when you build 100+ units the AI ups it's numbers as well. Does the term arms race sound familar?

Use your military advisor to get an aproximation of enemy numbers. later use a spy. Have enough to beat back wave attacks that comes from land rivals and largly ignore rivals across sea bariers. The AI will never commit it's entire force. leaving many units in reserve or in citys. your military never needs to be larger than 30% of your largest neighbors total forces to be decisive.

I do not ever leave units just sitting in a city.( Goverment Republic) mass most of your units on the future or suspected war zone. When you go to war send everything. you can easily dominate your neighbors by massing all of your force on one. beat him and switch. A well developed road net is esential.

On garirison strength. My advice is don't, with railroads only a few units are necessary to defend all connected cities. With roads a few units to defend groups of 3-5 cities depending on terain, and threat proximity never more than one unit. anything else is wasted. Isolated cities and isands one unit only. keep a cash reserve on hand of at least 1000 to rush build reinforcements at those locations.

The AI counts attack factors when making determinations about wether to go to war or make peace. one swordsman = 3 warriors. The point is make high quality attack units and... 1. Use them! 2. and get more respect. 3. spend less resources and commerce to create and maintain. Also the game will run so much faster and you will finish and win more games

vmxa1 · September 15, 2002, 13:49

One point about garrisons is that on higher levels, you may need at least two troops for suppression. Unless you keep size down and luxs up, you will need a few troops in town. Unhappy faces come sooner as you go up.

Proteus_MST · September 15, 2002, 18:00

Normally 1 Defensive Unit per City in my Possession,
20-50 Ground Attack Forces (For Example Cavaly and Artillery) depending on Era (more Forces in industrial/modern times), Nation size and Diplomatoc Relationships (War, now War? Actively trying to seize enemy Terrain or just defending? etc)
After the Discovery of flight usually 1-10 Fighters/Jetfighters and 10-20 Bombers

Oh and I normally play huge Maps

jabberwockysr · September 16, 2002, 12:30

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
One point about garrisons is that on higher levels, you may need at least two troops for suppression. Unless you keep size down and luxs up, you will need a few troops in town. Unhappy faces come sooner as you go up.

Only for Monarchy and Communism though, garrisons do squat for happiness on Rep/Dem, which I tend to stay in through almost all of the game. This makes the rail garrison much more attractive, especially considering that you're paying for all of them.

vmxa1 · September 16, 2002, 12:58

Do not garrisons prevent rioting?

Norris · September 16, 2002, 19:31

Garrisons only useful for, Despotism Communisum and Monarchy. Also to supress resistors in recently captured cities. I only play at Emperor level and some times at Diety where I have to Mircomanage everything!! It gives me a headacahe.

Silpy · October 7, 2002, 05:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Norris

The AI will respond to the size of your military, or it's neighbors. if your military is small (and the AI likes you) his military will be smaller. when you build 100+ units the AI ups it's numbers as well. Does the term arms race sound familar?

But! If you start down the 100+ units road, it is very hard to get out of it! Say if you have 150 units, and your rival has 125. You deside to make the world less voilent by getting rid of about 50-60 units spread over 20 turns (3-4 per turn). They will eventully realise that you are weaker now, and they WILL declare war (even the Indians)

Silpy · November 22, 2002, 07:00

Fools!

Am I the ONLY one who actully bothers updating my forces here! You would NEVER see me keeping outdated units (I call a unit outdated when a newer unit is better than the old unit in every way, so Cavalry remains in my forces along side Tanks, waiting for Armour units do oudate them, 'cos Cavalry are faster than Tanks!)
Only exeptions
a)I need every unit do defend the homeland
b)Dont have the Resorses to build new unit.

Beleve me, I laugh when it is 1900 AD and I see other nations, the most powerful in the world, who hung on to Warriors, Chariots and Galleys!
Come on, every nation deserses a well equipped, trained military. Just dont go overboard (North Korea)

aaglo · November 22, 2002, 07:59

1830
Large map, regent, 6 opponents - 2 of them destroyed

- 44 cavalry
- 198 infantry
- 45 tanks
- 45 bombers
- 13 arty
- 2 swordsmen
- 18 battleships
- 12 destroyers
- 5 transports
- 43 workers(chinese) and +150 captured
- 7 armies
- 2 longbowmen

total : 384 military units.

Population: +135 million
Land-area: 225 squaremiles

Where can I see the number of my cities (there are too many to count.)

Arrian · November 22, 2002, 11:24

Playing on standard maps, normal or maybe large landmass, I typically end up with 200-250 units. Probably 100-125 defenders, 10-15 bombard units, 10-20 ships (though I have had many more), 75-100 attackers. I typically add my native workers to cities and use slaves exclusively once the RR'ing is done.

-Arrian

Catt · November 22, 2002, 11:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Silpy
Fools!

Am I the ONLY one who actully bothers updating my forces here! You would NEVER see me keeping outdated units (I call a unit outdated when a newer unit is better than the old unit in every way, so Cavalry remains in my forces along side Tanks, waiting for Armour units do oudate them, 'cos Cavalry are faster than Tanks!)
Only exeptions
a)I need every unit do defend the homeland
b)Dont have the Resorses to build new unit.

Beleve me, I laugh when it is 1900 AD and I see other nations, the most powerful in the world, who hung on to Warriors, Chariots and Galleys!
Come on, every nation deserses a well equipped, trained military. Just dont go overboard (North Korea)

Other players might laugh when they see you've "invested" thousands and thousands of gold to upgrade spearmen and other outdated units in core cities well away from any danger.

joncnunn · November 22, 2002, 15:49

There's really too many factors to consider for this poll.

Perhaps a Military Unit per city would be more interesting.

Say:
A. Fewer than 1 military unit per 2 cities.

B. At least 1 military unit per 2 cities but less than 1 military unit per city.

C. At least 1 military unit per city, but less than 2 military units per city.

D. At least 2 military uinits per city, but less than 3 military units per city.

E. At least 3 military units per city, but less than 5 military units per city.

F. 5 or more military units per city.

Silpy · November 26, 2002, 06:22

Other players might laugh when they see you've "invested" thousands and thousands of gold to upgrade spearmen and other outdated units in core cities well away from any danger.

Not when thay pick a fight with me, and see all their units destroyed, their cities under my rule and their Civ good as buried?

PS I actully dont like war. It's too unorganised, it will result in death and destruction and it gives my funds a heart attack!

Zero · November 27, 2002, 21:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Catt

Other players might laugh when they see you've "invested" thousands and thousands of gold to upgrade spearmen and other outdated units in core cities well away from any danger.

Agreed. Outdated units have far better uses as MP than being upgraded to update unit. Heck, I used to save all my swordmen from ancient aggression era just to use them as a internal MP unit (moving out all pikemen to be upgraded to riflemen later). But if I didn't have any swordmen I'd keep those pikemen just where they are.

I'm not so sure about PTW now that swordsmen aren't the deadend... Hmmm.

As for defender per city question, I average 3-4 per city. It's not that I have 3-4 defender in city in SP game, It's just because there's alot out in the field stacked. In MP game? I havent tried Civ III MP, but in Civ II MP, defender/city averaged out much much higher (once again not necessarily all in city)

King of Rasslin · November 28, 2002, 22:19

Sometimes you have to get down and dirty and switch to communism or monarchy if you want a long war to break the enemy's back. So, you should always have at least 2 defenders per city for martial law purposes.

Smaller cities might not need that much, but 2 seems to be good regardless of city size. After that, focus heavily on offensive units. Their mobility will make them better than defenders while in your territory (because of roads), and they can take enemy cities effectively and quickly. I don't make artillery unless I expect an infantry attack, but I tend to avoid war in that time period anyway.

Theseus · November 28, 2002, 23:28

Hey, King, where ya been?

While I agree that garrisoning under Monarchy or Communism is a must, I've otherwise been experimenting lately with MINIMAL defenders... literally 1-2 per *frontline* city only, and otherwise only offensive units.

King of Rasslin · November 30, 2002, 07:31

Even before the marine and paratrooper arrive, it's still a good idea to garrison your cities well. In the ancient age, you need to be ready for barbarians. And the military police aspect is much more important if you are playing on a hard difficulty or if you just have bad luck in getting luxuries.

You don't need to worry about defending all of your cities in the back if you have a decent navy. Otherwise, don't be surprised if a landing force takes a city or 2 while you are too busy on the offence. I don't have 2 defenders per city if I am on an island. There are a lot of factors involved, but it's always better to be safe than sorry.