Chinese moon landings

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Dalgetti
I am still not sure . Where do we want those spaceships to go?

Outer system. If you don't have to lift the fuel for your rocket from Earth then you've gone a long way to making manned exploration of Jovian and Saturnian satellites possible.

[SociableMartian]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse




Not even close to funny, and errant in its assumptions. The Chinese have significant heavy-lift capabilities. They've been launching unmanned stuff for decades, and are centralised enough to easily reach deeply into the public purse to do this.

They should be putting money into improving the living standards of their huge population rather than launching expensive rockets that will offer them little to no long term benefits.

[KrazyHorse]

What they should do has very little to do with what they will do.

[SociableMartian]

Well yes but I thought this thread was about what they should do, not what they will do. We all know they're going to take part in all these exercises to prove how much of a world superpower they are but that doesn't change the fact that they are wrong, and they will regret this in 50 years time.

[KrazyHorse]

Why? They'll spend a few billion dollars. It won't be disastrous for their economy, it'll just put a bit of a strain on it. I hope the US and EU respond by stepping up the ****-waving contest. We might actually get some serious space development money flowing back in...

[SociableMartian]

And who is FG? DL? Are these the mods or something?

[Alinestra Covelia]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
As an American patriot and anti-communist I don't see the harm in China going up into space. Good for them. It is rather biased to assume that the "evil communists" have some plot for world destruction up their sleves no matter what they do.

I agree with this. A lot of the Chinese government's policies go towards two goals - 1) securing the future safety of their own regime, and 2) securing resources and opportunities for the people they rule. Whilst not perhaps the noblest of things, it is nonetheless a pair of goals shared by all governments worth their salt.

In my limited news watching I haven't seen many hostile moves from China, and from what I hear they have no ambitions to be a world power like the US.

Agreed on the lack of hostility observation. However, your second statement is something that I don't quite agree with entirely. China right now recognizes that its main future power will be economical and tradewise, not scientific nor military. The government is already consulting with IBM as to the viability of e-commerce and e-policy, whilst still maintaining somewhat close control over the development of its economic sectors (eg regulating the population flow from rural areas to urban). Thus, although we have the space project as a final farewell feather in Jiang's political cap, I have no doubt that the future leadership will continue to carefully cultivate the vast consumer strength of China's market.

China does aspire to superpower status, but I think from any realist's viewpoint, they will only be able to do so economically in the near future. America's extensive military and scientific lead is clear.

They just want to climb the highest mountain cause its there. I respect that, hopefully our country will do more of the same.

My most fervent wish is to see the two countries go it together. Why should the world's most powerful nation be at odds with its most populous? If the question is one of mere politics, or greed, or ideology, then I think the resultant mutual alienation between these two great cultures does not justify the reasons.

[mindseye]

What a bunch of whining. A nation decides to undertake some exciting space exploration, but because it's China, the response in this thread is a load of ill-informed cynicism. Personally, I think it's rather cool that the people who invented gunpowder and rockets are now getting serious about putting men in space, and maybe even on the moon. The current program calls for a space station and shuttles as a stepping stone to lunar exploration. Why the moon? It wouldn't surprise me if China is the first to reach Mars.

There are a number of obvious benefits from a manned mission, but I'm sure prestige is number one. In a single generation, China has gone from impoverished third-world status to bustling dynamo (this year Shanghai's mag-lev railway is supposed to go operational - does your country have one of those yet?). The Chinese are justifiably proud of their impending return to superpower status, and putting someone on the moon would be quite an impressive gesture to top it off with.

There are also more practical reasons: China's space program has been generating hard income from launching satellites(including some from American firms). Research may also provide valuable technology spin-offs, as the American space program did.

China is going nowhere in manned space flight

Huh? They've already had three successful flights of the ShenZhou craft, which is capable of carrying astronauts.

I doubt that China has any serious space program plans

Manned orbiter, shuttle, space station, and a moon mission aren't serious plans? BTW, they've successfully launched about 50 satellites so far (and planning another 30 in the next five years).

The most immediate appilcation of the technology would be missiles, and a nation that can send a man to the Moon will have the tech to nuke anything else on the planet.

As others have patiently noted, China already has missile technology and ICBMs.

Hence I beleive any Chinese moves are purely political posturing

Oh, I think I see: when a nation you don't like does something for national pride, it's called "political posturing."

a response to NMD as many have said.

Um, China's space program pre-dates NMD.

They should be putting money into improving the living standards of their huge population

Rest assured vast amounts are being spent on just that objective. I think you'd be quite surprised at what life is currently like in China's big cities.

rather than launching expensive rockets that will offer them little to no long term benefits.

Uh, China's Long March series of carrier rockets have already allowed China to grab a growing slice of the lucrative international satellite-launching market. And besides, we all know that launching expensive rockets in the US produced no long term benefits either, right?

[Ecthy]

Now he LIVES in China

Hey there mindseye, long time no see here, won't you tell us soemthing about China? Why not open a thread?

[mindseye]

Now he LIVES in China

Howdy! yeah, I've been living here about 14 months now.

Hey there mindseye, long time no see here, won't you tell us soemthing about China? Why not open a thread?

Jeez, I've been regularly posting in just about every thread about China! It's hard to say anthing about "China" as it is so diverse and changing so rapidly. Shanghai, however, I can tell you a little about - it is amazing to watch a great city re-inventing itself so rapidly, right before your eyes. From my balconey I can see over 110 highrises, most of them built in the last five years - and that's just the slice of the city I can see. Shanghai is once again a modern, world-class city. I'm just a teacher living in a middle-class neighborhood, but my life is just as comfortable as it was in San Francisco. In fact, in some ways, I am more comfortable, e.g. the near absence of significant crime. Come visit and see for yourself!

[Ecthy]

There's such a thing as crime in a people's republic?

How's the population doing there? Why is it you can use the internet? Are you sure you're not a government spy?

[mindseye]

There's such a thing as crime in a people's republic?

In daily life, the only crime you really need to worry about is bicycle theft and pick-pockets ont he subway. The real crimes here are of the white collar variety, as well as corruption.

Why is it you can use the internet?

Well, like about 30-50% of Shanghai households, I have a personal computer. I just plug it into the phone line, and voila! For those who don't have PCs, there are "net bars" everywhere, people go there to play network games, surf, do email and messaging, etc. C'mon, don't you know that Chinese is the #2 language of the internet?

[Ecthy]

But.... there are... so many.... rumors in the west...

[The Mad Monk]

That building on the right in the background of the photo is gorgeous. Very interesting archetecture.

As for the topic...more power to them!

[Ecthy]

If you believe, they'll put a man on the moon

[mindseye]

That building on the right in the background of the photo is gorgeous. Very interesting archetecture.

I should do a thread on Shanghai architecture some day. The style of most of the new buildings is either futuristic (lots of blue glass and unusual shapes) or classical western (columns, broken pediments, arches, urns, acanthus, classical reliefs, etc). Here's another shot of the same part of town, PuDong.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by mindseye
Rest assured vast amounts are being spent on just that objective. I think you'd be quite surprised at what life is currently like in China's big cities.

Yes, but would I be suprised about what life is like in the Xinjiang province, as an example. China happens to include a lot more than the big coastal cities.

[Urban Ranger]

That's Deng's masterplan. He decided to let a part of the country to become richer first instead of trying to drag the entire country up at the same time. This way, efforts can be concentrated to achieve scale of economy. The reason why the S/SE coastal region was chosen is because it was a richer and more developed area, so it would be easier to bring up to speed.

In fact, Deng selected a couple of areas as piliot tests. Then slowly, over the course of two decades, that the entire region was developed to various extent.

In 2000, the strategic development focus has been shifted to the western (inland) region. With the newly gained riches of the coastal region, it is hoped that the vast inland area can be developed in 50 years.

We know this because we (the people of Hong Kong) were invited to partake in this historical scheme of epic economic development.


mindseye,

IIRC, they are lacking in all kinds of expertise right now. Maybe you can get a higher paying job?

[Messer Niccolò]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
The cold war. To proove a political point that the US had the biggest d!ck.

Maybe chinese won't have big d!cks but they have a LARGE NUMBERS of it...

[Shadowstrike]

Urban Ranger, from what I hear, HK's economy is kind of floundering at the moment. This might sound cynical, but IMHO Hong Kong will beomce "just another Chinese port" in under fifty years. Its only economic benifit at the moment is the fact that Hong Kong's currency can be traded for American and European currency, while the renmenbi cannot. Additionally, it may have some technical people, but I suppose that that too will vanish as new generations are raised in higher standards of living in the mainland. China is developing yes, but as long as power stays within the Communist regime, there will always be a shadow of doubt hanging over the fact if China is truely reforming or just flexing its economic muscles.

[Cybergod]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
(Sid Meier's) Alpha Centauri!

I believe that we are now witnessing the early humble beginnings of our friend, Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang...

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Shadowstrike
Urban Ranger, from what I hear, HK's economy is kind of floundering at the moment. This might sound cynical, but IMHO Hong Kong will beomce "just another Chinese port" in under fifty years.

I don't understand the thrust of this point. Clearly, on one level, it is a Chinese port, that's a fact. On another level, it's like saying New York or LA is just another US port, which is, while technically correct, simply papers over lots and lots of details.

Originally posted by Shadowstrike
Its only economic benifit at the moment is the fact that Hong Kong's currency can be traded for American and European currency, while the renmenbi cannot.

Not to mention the (still) huge foreign exchange reserves.

Originally posted by Shadowstrike
Additionally, it may have some technical people, but I suppose that that too will vanish as new generations are raised in higher standards of living in the mainland.

What does standard of living have to to with technology? If you are saying that China will be catching up in terms of technology, that's correct. I don't see that's bad, though.

For one thing, the raising standard of living will stop the flux of people moving into the mainland to seek cheaper labour/goods/entertainment/etc.

Originally posted by Shadowstrike
China is developing yes, but as long as power stays within the Communist regime, there will always be a shadow of doubt hanging over the fact if China is truely reforming or just flexing its economic muscles.

I don't get this. This is just implying the same old false idea that communism is inherently bad.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Shadowstrike
Urban Ranger, from what I hear, HK's economy is kind of floundering at the moment. This might sound cynical, but IMHO Hong Kong will beomce "just another Chinese port" in under fifty years. Its only economic benifit at the moment is the fact that Hong Kong's currency can be traded for American and European currency, while the renmenbi cannot.

There are many more economic benefits that give HK the edge over the mainland. The big one is actually rule of law and the absence of corruption.

Then there is the established infrastructure. HK's port system is one of the most efficient in the world.

HK also has the critical mass of businesses. Companies set up shop here because their clients and partners are here.

The HK economy is floundering largely because it is an export-driven economy and its been hit hard by the Asian economic crisis and then the post-internet recession.

Having said that, there are a lot of problems here that are not being addressed cause the local government is incompetent.

[el freako]

Originally posted by Tingkai
The HK economy is floundering largely because it is an export-driven economy and its been hit hard by the Asian economic crisis and then the post-internet recession.

What about the fallout from the housing bubble of 95-98?

Surely that also had an effect?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by el freako
What about the fallout from the housing bubble of 95-98?

Surely that also had an effect?

True, but the bubble collapsed because of the Asian economic recession.

We're still struggling with the after effects of the housing bubble collapse, largely due to the idiots in the government.

(Example: the government promised to build 80,000 public housing units each year and then a few years later claimed they changed their mind but didn't tell anyone for a year.)

I certainly would not want to suggest that HK's problems are only the result of outside factors. As well, some of the problems were created by the colonial government and some of the problems are being created by the SAR gov't.

[Alinestra Covelia]

Sheng Ji Yang should be nearing his third birthday in the town of Wuhan, if the birthdate and personal info provided at AlphaHQ was reliable...

Mindseye - how I do envy you. All the buildings in Shanghai have got some real class to them - whereas up here in grim Beijing, all the high risers are vulgar to the point of ballistophally (spelling?). Looks like you've got high risers than don't turn sand-colored within a year. :jealous!:

Well... we've got central heating and broadband access so there!

Lately the weather has been really rainy and windy in Beijing - which if you know Beijing is quite a rarity. A friend of mine tried to commit suicide by throwing himself off a building verandah, but the wind picked up and he ended up in the shrubbery of the garden in the apartment below. I might not go outside for a bit. [/whopper]

My housemate Hu Man Bing got injured by a policeman the other day, and he just can't stop bragging about it. The injury happened during a wushu lesson, when Bing was demonstrating how to catch an opponent's kick, and the policeman (who is his sparring partner) goes "what, you mean like this?" and grabs Bing's leg. Bing went flying and landed on his elbow, resulting in a slight ulna injury and extensive bruising all the way from his humerus to his wrist.

The policeman was mortified and offered repeatedly to pay for his hospitalization fees, but Bing refused. This happened on March 31st and Bing claims to have gone to bed with three different girls since then purely because of the fetching scar. He's also thinking of writing a satirical piece making some sort of diplomatic incident out of the whole thing. Next time I'll wear a US Embassy T shirt and England 3-lions football tracksuit when I go to wushu - should get some interesting photos of me kicking a Chinese policeman and "starting a world war". They should be online by next weekend - I'll post the URL if/when they are.

But remember that China is a police state, dude. I went outside and the door guard asked me where I was going today in a brutally friendly tone before sneering at the weather and forcefully lending me his umbrella. No doubt a government agent. At the street intersection outside, there was not one, not twelve, but two whole policemen standing outside ruthlessly directing traffic with savage arm gestures that no decent democratic citizen would tolerate. Crazy. I had to go lie down. But no sooner had I entered the public park than I realized that people might be watching me. I was a foreigner - any one of the kids playing or the old women doing tai chi or the couples chatting of love could be undercover policemen! There were lampposts and telegraph pole everywhere, and I mean everywhere - any one of them could be a policeman! I sat down on a stone bench... then stood up again in a frenzy of panic. Who's to say it wasn't actually a policeman!!! My GOD!!!

On a somewhat saner note, I'd like to point out that Hong Kong's performance, regardless of whoever many percentage points lower it may be than 1997, is still infinitely higher than how high most Westerners thought it would be. Remember Forbes and Fortune magazines in the runup to the handover? Remember the predictions that there wouldn't even be a Hong Kong left to speak of?

The Communism debate is an interesting one, but I believe this ultimately becomes less and less important to China's economic status as time goes by. Talking in real terms, Deng was not a Communist, nor is Jiang, nor will Hu Jintao be. (Hu Jintao is no relation to my housemate.) Though the political aspect of China will still be considerably different from the democratic norm, I believe its economic sector is opening up too quickly to be considered communist anymore.

Now, if only they can bring some of that wealth to the vast hinterland... now that would be a challenge, and one well worth working towards.

[Sikander]

USA Today Headlines in the Future:

"Chinese Space Program Discovers Tang 1000 Years After Dynasty of the Same Name"

"Hu Man Bin Discovers Pun Tang 1000 Years After Last Emporer of Tang Dynasty"

[Urban Ranger]

el freako,

There were plans to dampen the real estate market, but the economic crisis made them unnecessary.


Tingkai,

In all fariness, the magical 85,000 units was part of the plans to cool down the property craze. Then October 1997 came along and all else is history. Since those plans were no longer necessary, they got canned. Granted I still think the property prices are way too high. That's what killing businesses.


Allie,

Lovely vintage sandstorms you are having up there.

[mindseye]

Yes, but would I be suprised about what life is like in the Xinjiang province, as an example. China happens to include a lot more than the big coastal cities.

Geez, most of this development has taken place in just five years, and you're complaining that the entire country wasn't made over at the same time? Considering that the population is concentrated along the coast, and that the cities hold much more economic potential than the countryside, is it really that surprising that development was initially focused on the cities?

At any rate, I've never been to XinJiang, but I recently took the train to Hong Kong, and was quite surprised at the amount of new construction in little towns all along the railway. I wish I had taken some photos, a lot of the new buildings look like mini fantasy palaces (towers, tinted glass, wrought iron, crazy colors), very bizarre (to western eyes, anyway) architectural style.

Looks like you've got high risers than don't turn sand-colored within a year. :jealous!:

Are many buildings in Beijing also covered with tile, or is that a southern Chinese thing?

Well... we've got central heating and broadband access so there!

Hey! You can get ADSL or cable access in much of Shanghai! Central heating, however, ... (glares at wall unit)

I went outside and the door guard asked me where I was going today in a brutally friendly tone before sneering at the weather and forcefully lending me his umbrella.

Yesterday some neighbors were holding a protest, blocking cement mixers from entering the construction site next door (I think they were complaining about the noise of the 24-hour work). There were three or four policemen standing around brutally doing nothing. Today I enountered two policemen malevolently walking near the police station down the block. One of them smiled at me.

"Chinese Space Program Discovers Tang 1000 Years After Dynasty of the Same Name"

(actually the name of the dynasty is pronounced Tong)

[mindseye]

IIRC, they are lacking in all kinds of expertise right now. Maybe you can get a higher paying job?

UR, I think you are right. My background is IT project management, but teaching is so much more enjoyable that I really don't care if I never see another Gantt chart again!

Seriously, I always wanted to be a teacher, but in the US the salary is just too low. But here, because of the low cost of living and the high pay for foreign teachers, my disposable income is actually about the same as when I was in IT back in San Francisco! Plus, I don't have to endure my soul being drained away in a 50-hr/wk IT treadmill job.