Make the AI into Alexander

[notyoueither]

Hmmm. Got this idea over the last number of days. What simple things does the AI not do that successful humans are doing?

What things could Soren incorporate into a *Developer's Cut* of the AI to teach Aeson, KruX and others some humility. Not me, nope. I'm very humble.

This is mostly for warfare, but some of the Builders might have a tip or two also.

Perhaps I'm being very unhumble in thinking that we could suggest anything to Soren, but maybe the perspectives of the players could uncover some things he hadn't thought of yet. So here goes.

[notyoueither]

Bulla, Bulla!

The situation is tense. The fate of empires hangs in the balance. If you sit back and wait for your enemy to bring it to you you are going to lose. As things stand, if you put everything you've got into one massive effort to defeat the Hun you just might find victory.

I (Roman's) invade a large island occupied soley by the Persians. Xerxes dusted the Indians and the Zulu long ago and has had a chance to develop the entire mini continent. He has well over 100 Mech Inf, about 30 Tanks, 15 or so Bombers and other assorted units. Of course he has Rails.

The Granda Marina has blown the goats out of a Persian coastal city (4 CVs and 8 BBs with 8 DDs will do that). 16 Marines are poised to assault the city. 4 are lost in overcoming the defenders (about 4 MechInf, 1 Inf). The Transports sail in and disembark. This lands 8 Artillery, 8 MechInf and 16 Tanks along with 12 Marines in the newly Roman city. All Fortify (except the expended Marines) to withstand the hurricane which is sure to follow. The Roman AirForce massively reinforces the invasion area.

The hurricane ensues. Only, instead of an all-out assault to immediately push me back into the sea, about 30 MechInf surround the city and begin pillaging.

I occupy my next turn by popping off some of the adventuresome Persian MechInf, and RushBuy an Airport. All Jet Fighters set to AirSuperiority.

On Xerxes turn, the hurricane commences. But it is only a brisk gale. Our Jets shoot down a few Persian Bombers. About 8 Persian Tanks expend themselves probing against the fortified MechInf.

On our turn, we Airlift in reinforcements, and probe out of the city.

On Xerxes's next turn the Persians destroy our small probe force and again attack our positions at the city. He commits enough to do damage, but holds back forces still. Our AirForce shoots the h*ll out of the Persian Bombers.

Our next turn, more probe out. RushBuy the AirPort again.

And so it goes. It took me much too long to get to the next Persian city. Interestingly, I underestimated the AI, and escalated my forces much too slowly. But finally, after shifting massive Tank and MechInf forces in, the forces of Rome are making progress.

But, the point is that Xerxes should have nailed the entire invasion force right there on turn 1. 30 Tanks and 50 MechInf should have been more than enough to annihiliate 16Tanks, 8 MechInf and 12 Marines. No?

I understand why it is so now. The game must be fun for even the casual gamer. Making invasions nearly impossible would not be fun for many people. But the fact is the enemy was barging in the gate, and the defenders had more than enough to destroy them. In fact the situation cried out for a Bum Rush. Oh well.

[asleepathewheel]

The AI bombards fairly well using its navy and bombers, but needs to use artillary rather than just keeping it around for defense, and the odd unit every one in a while.

AI needs to upgrade better. in my current game, I am in a joint operation w/ most of the world against the aztecs, I'm attacking w/ tanks (which noone else has yet) but the ai is assisting w/ immortals, archers, longbowmen, etc. The AI should have upgrading in its operational hierarchy, or at least place a higher priorty on it.

Does the AI use spies very frequently? I think I have only caught one or two trying to infiltrate, of course, I don't try to ferret them out, so my empire may be riddled with them.

There you go, some of the most obvious holes in the AI's warmaking ability.

[notyoueither]

BTW. Example situations should include setting information so that everyone can make sense of how the situation came about.

The situation of the Bum Rush is on Emperor, Large Map, Continents. 12civs. WarmClimate. Increased TechCost. 8 Turn MinimumResearchTime.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by notyoueither
BTW. Example situations should include setting information so that everyone can make sense of how the situation came about.

The situation of the Bum Rush is on Emperor, Large Map, Continents. 12civs. WarmClimate. Increased TechCost. 8 Turn MinimumResearchTime.

Ah, then sorry about the previous post. I was speaking in more general terms, game long tactics, not specific situations.

Does the AI change tactics the higher the level? I have heard that level increases only gives benefits to the AI, doesn't teach new tricks, right?

What I was referring to occured while playing on monarch.

[notyoueither]

No aatw. Not you in particular. Remember, I gave my own specs for a lengthy example.

I think the AI should get some new tricks as the level goes up. That's exactly what I'm suggesting. I would not want Soren to overwhelm unsuspecting people at normal levels with wicked tactics. I think a *This is Impossible, I'm Serious* level would add a lot to the appreciation of the game. Just think when you beat it. If... It would also be ideal for scenarios in some circumstances.

BTW. Everyone. Keep in mind that the idea, or the core of it must be simple. Even in the unlikely event that what you or I say here finds fertile soil in the final release of the game, there is no way that the AI is going to get torn apart and rebuilt at this point.

Simple concept. Simple conditions. Just maybe our ideas could stand a chance. At the very least it would be easy to talk about.

[Inverse Icarus]

it does get some new tricks as the difficulty level goes up.

it starts with 4 workers instead of 1

[Zachriel]

The AI could learn the proper use of bombard.

[notyoueither]

Artillery is near impossible for the AI to get good at.

OK. They put 16 Artillery into a stack and blow the snot out of one of your stacks. What do the rest of your forces do when it's your turn? They hunt down the Artillery and capture it. How many defensive units do they put with the guns? 4? 8? 16? How many do they have?

I don't think that it could never be done. I just think it is one of the more difficult items on the list.

Also, how much computational horsepower is required for that? Of course the same thing can be said about the whole notion of a superior AI as being possible for Civ3. Maybe the horses just aren't on enough desks to make it feasable at this time. That's one more reason why anything to be hoped for should be simple.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Artillery is near impossible for the AI to get good at.

OK. They put 16 Artillery into a stack and blow the snot out of one of your stacks. What do the rest of your forces do when it's your turn? They hunt down the Artillery and capture it. How many defensive units do they put with the guns? 4? 8? 16? How many do they have?

I don't think that it could never be done. I just think it is one of the more difficult items on the list.

I'm sure its hard, but believe it is doable. I'm not expecting it. Artillery is the HI cheat. The AI can rarely get any traction on the attack as long as I have sufficient bombard.

Perhaps the AI could just get good at defensive bombard. A couple dozen artillery in a crucial city can certainly slow down most attacks.

[notyoueither]

You've got a reasonable point there. Maybe the AI should stack up the defensive units and Artillery in it's capitol and FP.

That would be simple to accomplish, I think. Make total destruction harder too.

[rpodos]

nye, if I follow your thought processes, you are trying to help Soren develop a kick-ass military AI. Kudos, I agree.

The examples you've used thus far are with late-game military... not my forte (yet). But I'll try to contribute...

First off, let me say that I agree with an implicit premise of yours: on Monarch and higher, the AI should be able to demolish the human player, unless the human uses every bit of wit, wisdom, strategy and tactics available. I love the idea of a "Soren's Revenge on the Whiners" level.

Without a formal study, here are some of the aspects of that advanced military AI that I think need to be addressed:

* Concentrated / overwhelming force: No more dribs and drabs, please. If the AI is going to come after me, don't send in forces in groups of 2 or 4, in series. The AI should choose an objective, and stack at least 10 offensive units, use an appropriate approach (hills / mountains), and open a can of kick-ass on me.

* The algorithm for combat avoidance is too simplistic... don't let a human strike force into the heart of the AI empire.

* Don't start GWs in key military production cities.

* Don't send Settlers to the front.

* Use arty. Protect it.

* More barracks when faced with a warfare-oriented game. My elite / vet Immortals get bored cutting up regulars.

* More forts on key strategic positions.

* Understand and avoid "killzones." This is almost an exploit for me, although there is historical precedent.

* Firaxis needs to develop a black-white algorithm; there are certain situations when TOTAL military commitment is called for... throw the pots and pans, for Christ's sake!

* Increase aggression for all AI civs, period.

I don't think the military AI needs that much work; I've had my share of multiple stacks of 4 Legions showing up in force. But some tweaking would help.

R

[notyoueither]

You've got it right rpodos. I'm attempting a discussion that MIGHT be beneficial to Soren, if he sees it. At the very least, I'm hopeful that we can learn a bit from each other and thrash his AI even better than before. Heh heh.

I'm not going to gear my observations to any one era. The Bum Rush applies equally to ancient land campaigns as to modern invasions. The modern invasion just high-lights the absolute lack of down-side for the AI to do it, that's all.

Dribs and drabs, yes. Heh. I have some ideas on that. Waiting to formulate them though.

Almost everything you've said would be good for the Insane Difficulty level (and for many or all lower too). Many of them might be quite simple to implement. The Settlers into the cauldron especially. Why do they do that? Pretty simple? No Settlers go within 6 tiles of an enemy civ's units.

[asleepathewheel]

Whats ironic about the settler carnage is that it is almost exactly what many players do, raze and build own city. unfortunately the AI does this when on the defensive, after its own city is razed, it tries to repopulate the area, leading to quick death. If it could be trained to only do this offensively, like after it has secured a couple of squares around the razed city and then defend it, it would be much more effective and entertaining to play against.

[Alex]

Another thing that would help: when the AI is on the offensive, it should not only bring a powerful attack force to try and conquer your most vulnerable spot, but also create a diversion, unloading some units somewhere else on your empire. If we can do that, I think it would not be difficult for the AI to do it.

Of course, the AI would have to get a more comprehensive knowledge of the situation and circunstances involving the attack. Is the other civ's culture level higher? Do they have railroads? That is the real trick.

[Saint Marcus]

Though the Civ3 AI is far from perfect, it is an incredible improvement from Civ2's AI.

[Shadowlord]

Also, the AI should drop off troops by boat or paradrop onto strategic & luxury resources, and have said troops pillage & fortify to deny their foes access to those resources. They could also attempt to bombard the roads away, but that would require a far larger investment of aerial or naval forces.

This would work better near the coastline or borders with the nation the AI is at war with, obviously.

[Hamburglar]

I know a way to make the AI have the balls to get rid of your invasion forces....



I went into the editor and checked the boxes "OFFENSE" as well as "DEFENSE" under Infantry and Mech Infantry.
The AI will use these as offensive units quite often when they have to - they'll send their tanks at you first but then the infantry come in.

I was playing the world map and I (Persia) launched a massive invasion of the East Coast of North America (Britain) with about 17 transports loaded with Infantry and Artillery. I managed to take a tiny city in Florida and I also got one where New England would be, and lastly I took over their capitol which was right on the coast. This was before Motorized Transportation.

Well, the AI was Communist and I upped the draft limit to 6 (come on, Stalin really made use of it) and the Brits were just coming out of annhiliating the Aztecs so they had plenty of draftees over there as well. The AI also had railroads.....

Well, stacked in their capitol I had 18 artillery and at least 25 infantry of various types - mostly veteran, but a few elite and conscript thrown in. City was heavily damaged from artillery so it was size 1 (was 24 before my battleships started hitting it hahaha).

The AI attacked.... first with their cavalry, but when they all died they just sent WAVES of infantry at me. I killed 2 or 3 for every one that I lost, but sure enough they liberated all of their cities in ONE turn. On my next turn the rest of my invasion force just tried to turtle itself and hold on for dear life so I could get reinforcements in, but then the AI used that big stack of captured artillery to smash the hell out of my big stacks of infantry and then went wild sending their infantry against me. I took another city in the boonies of Northern Canada and instead of using artillery against their men I used it all just pounding on their roads and railroads so the massive infantry army couldn't reach me.

All in all it basically turned into what I thought would be an easy invasion into a massive war - the AI lost at least 150 infantry I would expect but they completely annhilated my invasion force and captured all my artillery - they got a great leader almost every turn as well, and formed armies with them it seemed.

Later in this game I finally wiped them out - (Right of Passage agreement with 4 tanks next to EVERY one of their cities does the trick)

But then it became my goal to take out France (they were located in South America and the Southwest of North America). We were already in a nuclear war...

So what I did was I sent a big invasion towards Panama so I could sever their empire in two - I bombed the hell out of every road and railroad in Central America and had workers constructing forts for my Mech Infantry to hold onto the ground.

On their turn they started the march of the massive army sent to wipe out my beachead. I was planning on nuking their cities with my two tactical nukes but then I noticed the HUGE force marching up from the south and the HUGE force marching down from the North. Each one had over seventy troops in them....

KABOOM KABOOM - two nukes drop down and wipe out half of each pile - the French military is now about 2/3 its previous size in just one turn. I killed about seventy units with two nukes - it was beautiful.


So the AI can be manipulated to be a real bastard with its attacking infantry, but it can also be really romped because of it as per my example in France.

Change it as you will, but I find that it does make the AI give you a harder fight - especially in the Industrial age. Before tanks come out the ideal attack unit is probably infantry because of their good defense while cavalry can get whupped. The AI wont attack with infantry because its labeled as a defenseive unit, so I decided to make it both OFFENSE and DEFENSE. Try it, it works.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Hamburglar

I went into the editor and checked the boxes "OFFENSE" as well as "DEFENSE" under Infantry and Mech Infantry.
The AI will use these as offensive units quite often when they have to - they'll send their tanks at you first but then the infantry come in.

hehe, sounds like an interesting idea, will have to try it out. Since infantry has a 6 attack rating, the same as cavalry, they can be used legitamately as offensive weapons. I don't remember the attack for the mech infantry. wow This would also make it much tougher to grab cities or retake cities, as there would be a huge amount of defensive units already on site for the AI. sounds like the mid-to-late game would turn into WWI, trench warfare-Its not so bad when the AI sends cav waves and a few infantry, since cav are so (relatively) weak on defense, but infantry in mass quantities at the front....damn sounds tough

[Saint Marcus]

Hamburglar: great idea, I'm trying it out now.

[Dominae]

The AI needs to learn to protect its units. It does so relatively well with Settlers in the early game, but I've picked off more Longbowmen than I can count on my scientific calculator. The annoying little "strategy" of producing a Longbowman when under siege and using it to counter-attack is cute at first, but really easy to adapt to.

One way of doing this would be to let the AI determine which, if any, of its units are "within reach" at the end of any given turn. If a unit would end its turn within reach the opponent's units, then it should "reconsider" the value of that particular move. I know I make this consideration all the time. "Reconsidering" would involve 1) determining if the unit ends up stacked with a good defensive unit, 2) calculating whether the move is worth it in the first place (eventually, capturing Workers is simply not worth it), and 3) checking the types of opposing units that are within reach.

Example: Babylon is under siege by 2 Immortals, 1 attacking from the North, 1 from the South. Babylon's garrison consists of 1 Longbowmen and 1 Pikemen. The Immortal to the North is at 1 health, but is backed up by some Horsemen 2 tiles away. The Immortal to the South is at full health, but has no backup.

Which Immortal would you choose to attack with the Longbowmen? I think most of us would agree that the one to the South is the right choice; it is relatively easy pickings, and there is no possibility of losing the Longbowmen in a counter-attack. Sadly, the AI would pick the North Immortal, because it's an easier battle.

This problem sort of goes away when the AI gets fast units (but even then it makes suboptimal decisions). In general, the AI's movement patterns are highly exploitable.


Dominae

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Dominae
The AI needs to learn to protect its units. It does so relatively well with Settlers in the early game, but I've picked off more Longbowmen than I can count on my scientific calculator.

An easier solution to consider might be just letting the bows have their movement after they attack. This would solve the problem of archers leaving their towns to attack invaders outside the walls, and make the archers a more interesting and unique unit.

[Hamburglar]

The only problem I have seen with my change is that sometimes the AI attacks when it shouldn't - like, if all it has is a conscript infantry fortified in a city and then it builds another one, it will send that second one out to attack your units if you are close by. I guess he should concentrate a bit more on defense but I've been playing like this for awhile now and all in all I think it makes the AI's a bigger challenge.


Just today I upped the infantry attack to 8, to make them better than cavalry and this makes infantry attacks more feasible even.


Mech Infantry attack at a 12 (same as a tank I believe) so it makes them good for it too - they defend at an 18 so even if its Mech vs Mech the attacker isnt at that much of a disadvantage. Before Modern Armor comes out Mech Infantry are the best units since they attack at the same of a tank and defend really well.

[Inverse Icarus]

the AI can't win on an Archipeligo. it simply can't. if you have your own island (no matter how small) the AI simple CAN'T take it with a human defender. their combat sense is seriously lacking.

at least they stack transports with defensive units.

as said before, this AI is a big step from civ2, and for that i am thinkful.

but IMHO, and i could be wrong, they could have done a better job.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Zachriel
An easier solution to consider might be just letting the bows have their movement after they attack. This would solve the problem of archers leaving their towns to attack invaders outside the walls, and make the archers a more interesting and unique unit.

Basically you're suggesting that all archer-type units have a Movement of 2, with the restriction that the second move can't be an attack move. Interesting idea, although it would require a complete rework of all other units to maintain game balance. My suggestion is to improve that AI with the units currently available. Which solution is simpler is debatable.


Dominae

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Dominae


Basically you're suggesting that all archer-type units have a Movement of 2, with the restriction that the second move can't be an attack move. Interesting idea, although it would require a complete rework of all other units to maintain game balance. My suggestion is to improve that AI with the units currently available. Which solution is simpler is debatable.


Dominae

Not 2mp, but attack then decide whether to advance, wait or stand pat.

[Dominae]

Attacking costs a minimum of 1 movement point.


Dominae

[notyoueither]

Dominae and Zac might have something. What would happen if foot units were increased to 2MP, Horse and Knights to 3, with Cav and ModArm going to 4?

I see the AI use foot all the time. One will attack, win the battle, get stuck in the captured square and die to counter attack.

Would the AI adjust properly to giving it's favorite units 2MP. Combine that with Offensive Unit for Infantry and MechInf (BTW, isn't that part of 1.17f?). Then the AI would have more capable forces.

Leave Cat/Can/Art at 1MP. That would reduce the impact of the HI use of artillery.

One effect would be that empires could be over-run quicker. I'm of the opinion that the quicker you put the cripple out of it's misery the better. Why prolong the tedium of wiping up the floor with a helpless civ? If capable civs could put up a better fight, I'm all for it.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Dominae
Attacking costs a minimum of 1 movement point.


Dominae

Actually attacking takes place with an attack, then an automatic move into the unoccupied square. So you get to attack and move with all foot units, at least some of the time. If the square is still occupied, then the turn is indeed over. That is because hand-to-hand units must close to attack.

If the proposed rule was implemented, that is, treating the archers in a tactical fashion, they could attack from the adjoining square, then move off. Most of the time, the archers would attack and then not move, in order to remain in the stack or fortification.

[Alex]

as said before, this AI is a big step from civ2, and for that i am thinkful. but IMHO, and i could be wrong, they could have done a better job.

Yes, they could. If we were on 2020 or 2030.