I am no longer your moderator...

[yin26]

http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum6/HT...383.html?24#24

You can follow that link to see why. Come to your own conclusions. I can only say that during my term as moderator this community came together to produce the most fantastic Wish List in gaming history (over 500 pages!). It might never be foot-noted anywhere or even mentioned when Civ3 gets released, but to see an on-line community stick it out for such a long period and with such determination was really a wonderful thing.

Along the way I tended to stay awfully quiet. I absolutely hated closing or moving threads, and this made more work for Markos. In this regard, I think I have been a lousy moderator. I never came up with polls. I hardly ever even had a good topic to add these last several months. For that, I'm sorry.

As you'll see in that controversial thread, Markos and I have very different thoughts about how "the public" should or should not handle its relationship with a gaming company. I think his is a one of "Keep a good relationship at all costs." He is notoriously rosy-eyed when it comes to problems in these games, and this clouds his vision.

But I understand him. This is his baby. And we can all aree that Apolyton is THE place for Civ-related stuff. So he and Dan must be doing something right.

On the other hand, I think he's sometimes too much of a company-boy for his own good. Then again, I'm sometimes too much of a trouble maker for my own good. In the end, he owns the board.

I thank all of you who helped and put up with me for two years. In a sense, I'm greatly relieved not to have to check this board for something "offensive." I can just relax now and make Markos really work for his money.

Thanks,

Yin
[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited March 06, 2001).]

Perhaps you misunderstood one things. Apolyton is not here to be a simple civ site. Apolyton is here to act as the intermediate between the developers and the community for the greater good of both. A bright example of this is the List. But when an apolyton forum moderator attacks a developer, he is not only harming apolyton, he is also harming the community in the long run

[Adm.Naismith]

Very sorry to read this.
I think MarkG overreact about your post, but as you write this is a bit his house, so he and Dan rules.

Sincerelly I hope you two now stop for a bunh of days to post about this discussion, then armistice and step back to more allied state

Please, don't go away from this forum. I think you are a good Apolytoner member and I think will be a pity to lost you.

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[yin26]

quote: ...attacks a developer...

Any examples? There was not one attack in my thread. Please find one.

Adm.Naismith,

Thanks.

quote: Originally posted by yin26 on 03-06-2001 04:25 AM There was not one attack in my thread. Please find one.

a certain thread you decided to leave for the future.....

[yin26]

So you are ASSUMING I am planning an attack? Man, this is just plain strange. Markos, are you feeling alright?

quote: Originally posted by yin26 on 03-06-2001 04:39 AM So you are ASSUMING I am planning an attack?

i'm just seeing a pattern on deleted and existing threads...

[yin26]

So, without any discussion with me whatsoever, you determine some "pattern," which so far lacks any concrete evidence of an attack, and decide to strip me of the moderator title? After two years you couldn't even send me a heartfelt e-mail asking me what I intend to do with the forum over the next weeks and months?

Honestly. This is a baffling situation...

[Nikolai]

I'm shocked! In my opinion, Mark overreacted. Yin DID a good job!

------------------
Who am I? What am I? Do we need Civ? Well....

Yin read your posts again and while you're reading them, imagine if they were written by someone else. And you might see you have an attitude problem.

I think MarkG does too. I think the moderators and admins around here need to relax. (Like Ming!!) (I think all admins and moderators around here should be either Kiwis or Aussies since we're all layed back BUT NOT STUPID). =)

I think Ming does the best job around here.

quote: Apolyton is here to act as the intermediate between the developers and the community for the greater good of both

That's nice. And stupid me thought it was to make money ...

I too am sorry how this has turned out. Yin, one thing I have to give you - you alway spoke your mind - IMHO, this was actually refreshing and I for one will miss your moderation. I really do hope your not going to just "disappear quietly" - The forum still needs your voice

[Tiberius]

Sorry to read this.

Mark, I politely disagree with you (may I?). It's true that this is your site and I understand that you need the "friendship" of developers, but don't forget one thing though: we, the gamers, the civ community, we buy the games and we post here on Apolyton. Be careful Mark, you may realize one day that Apolyton has very, very good relations with developers but no community at all.

I think that a place where people are beeing punished because they criticize a game or a developer, or because post something that you don't like, is no longer a wothwhile place to post.

I like Apolyton and the forums and especially the fact that we can come here to exchange ideas, dream about Civ3 and post good and bad opinions. Please don't change this, Mark.

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius on 03-06-2001 09:32 AM I think that a place where people are beeing punished because they criticize a game or a developer, or because post something that you don't like, is no longer a wothwhile place to post.

and do you see that here? when was the last time you saw someone geting punished for saying something bad about firaxis?

a moderator is not a simple poster. his position is totally different and dictates certain things regarding his behaviour

[Tiberius]

quote: and do you see that here ?

quote: But when an apolyton forum moderator attacks a developer, he is not only harming apolyton, he is also harming the community in the long run

You answered yourself.

quote: when was the last time you saw someone geting punished for saying something bad about firaxis?

Except now? You're right, I didn't, and I hope I won't see it in the future, either.

perhaps you didnt read this part

quote: a moderator is not a simple poster. his position is totally different and dictates certain things regarding his behaviour

[Tiberius]

Sorry Mark, but from your discussion with Yin I felt that you are angry on him because he poped up a topic that could possibly harm Firaxis.

In my opinion, moderator or not, Yin (or anybody else) should have the right to criticize, even developers or Apolyton administrators (and he didn't even do that, just posted a sensitive topic).

If this special rule ("don't upset developers"), applies only for Apolyton moderators, I still don't agree, but your site, your rules. Just don't count on me as a moderator (now this will cause you serious ROTFL )

Oh, Yin: don't be sad; you actually won here. You are now free to speak!

[kolpo]

I don't want this site to be a hype site(it is very close to this currently) but I want it to be a discussion site. Firaxis already has it's own hype site which works and worked so good that I saw quite nothing else then meaningless hype posts here. Yin did a good job by posting a subject to make this agian a discusion site instead of a hype site. And now got he heavily punished for some very minor offence.

In fact are people who find all things that could possibly go wrong in a game and post them the most usefull kind of people for a company, because they can learn from them.

And the fact that he shouldn't post critic because he is a moderator does me think about Stalin who fired all generals who didn't thought exactly as him before world war 2 because after all : Generals should follow a more strick code of conduct them common people. Don't they ?

*is affraid because he realizes him he has offended the party leaders of the communistic ... eh I mean firaxis party*

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius on 03-06-2001 10:44 AM Sorry Mark, but from your discussion with Yin I felt that you are angry on him because he poped up a topic that could possibly harm Firaxis.

if you read more carefully, you would see that i didnt have a problem with him starting a discussion on bugs(the proof is the poll i myself started today) but with his choice to revive a dead issue(that of the jkm article)

quote: Originally posted by kolpo on 03-06-2001 11:09 AM Yin did a good job by posting a subject to make this agian a discusion site instead of a hype site. And now got he heavily punished for some very minor offence.

a moderator posting private data is not a minor offence in my book

request to everyone: if you're going to comment, read the whole thing first

nemo, the private message had nothing to do with firaxis(e.g. it was not something firaxis gave him or anything like that)

still...
kolpo, if i cant be sure that something i tell(no matter how constructive or unconstructive that is) someone in private will not come out in public, i cant work with him. i believe that there are a lot of people in democratic countries that think the same way

[kolpo]

oke I understand your point of vieuw but I disagree but I still like this site I just wanted to say that I disagree.
[This message has been edited by kolpo (edited March 06, 2001).]

And like Mark stated before Kolpo - you're entitled to your opinion, just like everyone else (and now Yin has full entitlement to his too)

So, lets all shake hands and move on from here

[lord of the mark]

quote: Originally posted by kolpo on 03-06-2001 12:40 PM Because of the offensive non constructive tone of the message fail I to understand why it is so wrong to post that. There was also no clear written rule about that subject. I don't know any democratic country where someone can be punished for doing something that isn't clearly against the written rules. The only nations where things like that can happen are communistic and despotistic nations. And yes you have the complet freedom to rule this site on wathever unfair communistic way you want just like Sadam has the complet freedom to rule Irak like he wants, it is his country after all ? But just like with Sadam want I to say that the fact that it is his country(your server) doesn't make it good and doesn't change the fact that it is unfair.

Now this is just plain silly. Capitalist democracies respect private property, and servers and the websites that run on them are private property. the owner can do what he wants to on them, within the law. If the publisher of the New Republic magazine doesnt like the opions of his editior in chief, he's free to fire him (and did). Freedom of speech adheres in the publisher, not in the editor or reporter.(Usenet, which is sort of cooperative anarchy is a very complex case, but its not a website) In fact if the publsiher is prevented from firing whom he wishes, his freedom of speech is interfered with. You dont like the policies of this site, you can go to another one, or start your own. (far easier to start a website than a newspaper, say)

Lord of the mark

[lord of the mark]

this whole discusion is kind of silly.

If i had started a website, and someone whom i selected as moderator had a private disagreement with me, and then chose to take that disagreement to the forum, id be royally pissed. and i doubt id even patiently let that person keep posting about the argument on MY forum, as Mark is doing. hes a patient man, more than i would be.

Sheesh, what gaul.

And this is not about hypeing for the developer. I have taken issues with things ive seen Firaxis doing, from unique civs to unit graphics. I am confident Apolyton will still be open to such discussions.

And btw, the whole Morris article thread was misunderstood - he wasnt talking about forums like Apolyton so much as Usenet. (note the reference to deja) Have you guys ever been to Comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategy (sissy pigs?) it is more or less just the way Morris charecterized it. And csipg.war-historical is even worse - to the point where William Trotter wrote a column suggesting that the hyperpickiness of that Grognard usenet NG was harming the genre.

Lord of the mark

Well, the overall impression I get reading all this is that MarkG cares a lot about the devopler's side than the communities side.

[kolpo]

I posted "And yes you have the complet freedom to rule this site..." I admited the fact that a website owner is allowed to run a website the way he wants and I said that I thought that the moderators are ruled here like in a depotistic country. So I don't see what you are attacking with your post.

A website owner is free to rule a website on a despotistic way because we are a capitalism but people are free to give there opinions about that owner because we are a democracy. The website owner can react on this by banning that person from his service. But the income of a website owner is often determinated by the number of people that go to that website and because of that is it much better to allow critic like Mark did(at least from normal members) for which I'm happy.
[This message has been edited by kolpo (edited March 06, 2001).]

[lord of the mark]

[quote]Originally posted by kolpo on 03-06-2001 02:41 PM
I posted "And yes you have the complet freedom to rule this site..." I admited the fact that a website owner is allowed to run a website the way he wants and I said that I thought that the moderators are ruled here like in a depotistic country. So I don't see what you are attacking with your post.


Im attacking your use of rhetoric like "communistic" "despotic" and "like Saddam". I suggest we all go on over to kolpo's house and vote on which of us should get to sleep in which room, and who should get first dibs on the food in the refrigerator. Now Kolpo has the right to be overide our votes and kick us out, but thats just being despotic and communistic, right?

Now it certainly is in marks interest, if he wants to keep this site popular, to allow open discussion of civ games. He hardly needs to keep it open to attacks on him. I for one, would not go elsewhere if mark chose to quash such things.

Lord of the mark
"Im paying for this microphone" Ronald Reagan

[CapTVK]

Hmmmm, I've read thread concerning the issue of bugs and don't see anything wrong with it. So what if the statement is almost 2 years old!? This is one of those issues that keeps coming back and is always worthy of debate. While i'm not a regular visitor of the civ3 forum so I don't know how well he moderated the forum. I do recall Yin26 being a poster who's ready to give his own view on particular subjects like the CtP2 debacle for instance.

I have a feeling that's the real reason for Yin being removed of his moderator privileges. The bug-thread with trolling accusations and private msg posting remark were just the excuse needed for Yin to get the sack.


And yes, it's Markos site. So he can do what he pleases. But a forum only is alive thanks to the individual efforts of the posters. And Yin's efforts were TREMENDOUS!


In the end I can only say this was a bad call MarkG, a very bad call...


And Kolpo:

I can't make heads nor tails from that post of yours. Try putting it a bit less bluntly :P
[This message has been edited by CapTVK (edited March 06, 2001).]

[kolpo]

A house and a big community website are mayb elegaly similar but are prcatically totaly different and can't be compared.